Manchester Victoria - room/need for expansion?

[Dawg]

Just wondering what folks thought about the traffic handling capabilities of Victoria once electrification is complete. If my memory serves me right, there are only 4 tracks going through the station - capacity wise, from what Victoria used to be like, I always thought the rebuild to be a potentially erroneous decision for future traffic increase..

Is there any room for expansion into the M.E.N? Or do you think it's fine as it is?

Or should Exchange reopen?!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is there any room for expansion into the M.E.N? Or do you think it's fine as it is? Or should Exchange reopen?!

Have you seen the site of the former Manchester Exchange station recently or seen the plans for the proposed re-use of the site.

 

[Bullfield WEst]

As there are no avoiding through routes and only 4 platforms which cover South/East and North/West, I believe there will have to be more none terminating services with much longer trains even if this means less trips per hour. There are 7 passenger trains per hour starting and terminating on Platforms 3 to 6,(typically between 12 noon and 1 pm midweek).
It is already accommodating the Newcastle TPX but aren't there plans to take more after the electrification. I honestly can't see how they will successfully make Victoria work as proposed. Of course they could make the Clitheroe a circular service via Todmorden with a reversal at Blackburn.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think there were originally 6 through platforms, reduced to 4 in the late 80s rebuild. I'd have thought these would be reinstated if it was possible. There's plenty of room to reinstate some extra East-facing bays but the need is for through platforms or Westbound bays.

The Tod curve services will mostly run through Vic towards Salford and beyond, to various destinations. At least one will be a Blackburn to Clitheroe via Burnley, Todmorden, Manchester, Bolton and Blackburn again! Circular services can cause issues at times of disruption, one of the reasons the Circle line no longer runs as such.

 

[bluenoxid]

I believe the intention is to route trains on to Stalybridge and potentially Rochdale. I can also see more use being made of the eastern side of Vic to turn trains as well to keep the platforms free.

 

[edwin_m]

East and west of the station, the formation still exists for at least three and possibly four extra platform tracks - does the Exchange redevelopment affect these? Obviously they disappear into the walls of the Arena, but if more platform capacity was needed, for HS3 for example, it would probably be better and easier to relocate the Arena somewhere nearby than to build a new station.

 

[yorksrob]

I heard a rumour a while back that part of the Arena car park was built so that an additional two platforms could be added the other side of the wall. Don't know if its true though.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's plenty of room to reinstate some extra East-facing bays.

Where exactly is the extra room at Manchester Victoria station to reinstate any extra east-facing bay platforms. Things must have suddenly changed since my last visit at the weekend.

 

[Welshman]

I heard a rumour a while back that part of the Arena car park was built so that an additional two platforms could be added the other side of the wall. Don't know if its true though.

It wouldn't be the first time Manchester Victoria has had a "hidden" platform the other side of the wall.

 

[andyb2706]

I think there were originally 6 through platforms, reduced to 4 in the late 80s rebuild. I'd have thought these would be reinstated if it was possible. There's plenty of room to reinstate some extra East-facing bays but the need is for through platforms or Westbound bays.

The Tod curve services will mostly run through Vic towards Salford and beyond, to various destinations. At least one will be a Blackburn to Clitheroe via Burnley, Todmorden, Manchester, Bolton and Blackburn again! Circular services can cause issues at times of disruption, one of the reasons the Circle line no longer runs as such.

Before the redevelopment of Manchester Victoria in the early 1990's to accommodate the arena there used to be 6 through platforms (11-16) and the original plans was to have 6 through platforms (2 under the arena) in the redevelopment but I suspect due to cost this was scaled back to only the 4 that we have now.

As to additional platforms at the east end there is no room for them as the Metrolink has taken all the space up.

As to the Exchange this land has been sold and is currently being redeveloped into office blocks to accommodate Salford City Council new head quarters, before anyone queries this Salford starts just the other side of Trinity Way which is the road that you access the arenas car park from.

As to increase of capacity in extra platforms there is going to have to be some "blue sky" thinking as there is limited space, the best and probably only way to do this is to have Victoria as a through station and trains only stopping for a minute or two to set down and pick up passengers.

There are talks of re-opening the two disused platforms at Salford Central for terminating trains from the West to open up more room at Victoria, but if this is to happen it is probably going to be quite a while off, but also if you look at how the overhead stanchions that have gone up at Salford Central it seems more plausible that this will happen as they have ample room to get track and overheads up on the current stanchions.

I use to be a Train Recorder at Manchester Victoria West in the early 90's and watched them build the station, still to this day I still work in the area. Kind of my home away from home.

 

[yorksrob]

It wouldn't be the first time Manchester Victoria has had a "hidden" platform the other side of the wall.

Alas, I never got to see the old Victoria and its hidden platform (17 ?).

 

[edwin_m]

As to the Exchange this land has been sold and is currently being redeveloped into office blocks to accommodate Salford City Council new head quarters, before anyone queries this Salford starts just the other side of Trinity Way which is the road that you access the arenas car park from.

The boundary is the River Irwell so the Exchange site is in Salford. The Cathedral Approach bridges the Irwell so the turning into Exchange off Victoria Street is in Manchester! The Salford Approach, not surprisingly, is fully within Salford.

 

[158756]

May I ask what happened to the idea of a bay platform at Rochdale that was mooted a few years ago?

Though the new platforms at Stalybridge don't seem particularly well used.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

May I ask what happened to the idea of a bay platform at Rochdale that was mooted a few years ago?

Though the new platforms at Stalybridge don't seem particularly well used.

The expansion of Stalybridge was designed to create more terminal capacity for the future, post-hub. It's probably a good thing that this capacity hasn't been immediately swallowed up!
Rochdale I'm less familiar with, but I believe that there's a disused island platform that could be reinstated.

Apologies for my confusion over the East side of Victoria, I'd momentarily forgotten about the 'new' metrolink situation.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

The issue isn't a lack of platforms it's blocking them with terminating services from the west. Surely the easiest solution is to build sidings east of the station so that terminating services can clear out of the way? plenty of land for a couple of sidings

 

[Geeves]

The old platforms behind the wall story comes up pretty often but I can put it to bed as behind that wall are the dressing rooms and storage areas underneath the arena floor so no space for any more tracks there unfortunately!

The only thing I could think to improve at least 5 and 6 was some sidings on the former loop line (now elevated forest).

As has been said the old exchange site is now a giant hole in the ground

Rochdale the idea for a Manchester facing bay is in the offing, one day.

As has been said the majority of trains will soon be passing through, even the Leeds trains could eventually go onwards to Chester as has been requested in the new Franchise spiel.

 

[andyb2706]

As has been said the majority of trains will soon be passing through, even the Leeds trains could eventually go onwards to Chester as has been requested in the new Franchise spiel.

I missed that one! What would it be? A new service that runs via Chat Moss or an extension from the Chester to Manchester Piccadilly once the go ahead is given for the Ordsall Curve?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The expansion of Stalybridge was designed to create more terminal capacity for the future, post-hub. It's probably a good thing that this capacity hasn't been immediately swallowed up!
Rochdale I'm less familiar with, but I believe that there's a disused island platform that could be reinstated.

For a little while they did implement sending a service through to Stalybridge roughly 18-24 months ago to free up room at Victoria but that got stopped last May when the Trans Pennine Liverpool to Newcastle started because of a path clash.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I missed that one! What would it be? A new service that runs via Chat Moss or an extension from the Chester to Manchester Piccadilly once the go ahead is given for the Ordsall Curve?

The former: the ITT requires a service from Bradford to Chester, but will almost certainly start from Leeds and presumably be a fast/semi-fast up the Calder Valley via Victoria and Earlestown/Warrington BQ.

 

[snowball]

There are talks of re-opening the two disused platforms at Salford Central for terminating trains from the West to open up more room at Victoria, but if this is to happen it is probably going to be quite a while off, but also if you look at how the overhead stanchions that have gone up at Salford Central it seems more plausible that this will happen as they have ample room to get track and overheads up on the current stanchions.

The current proposal is to increase the number of platforms at Salford Central from two to five. This was in a submission from TfGM to the DfT last year and it secured funding, but whether it goes ahead must be in doubt until the Ordsall chord gets the awaited approval.

However I hadn't heard that there was any plan to use any of these platforms for terminating trains. What I had heard is that services from the west that would have terminated at Victoria will run through to either Stalybridge for electric services, or Rochdale for diesel ones.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Rochdale the idea for a Manchester facing bay is in the offing, one day.

I am old enough to remember what Rochdale station was like in the 1950's when it was quite a good sized railway station with bay platforms both west and east facing. You can still see clearly a long-disused through line platform opposite you when you stand on the platform that currently serves Manchester-bound services.

 

[158756]

The current proposal is to increase the number of platforms at Salford Central from two to five. This was in a submission from TfGM to the DfT last year and it secured funding, but whether it goes ahead must be in doubt until the Ordsall chord gets the awaited approval.

However I hadn't heard that there was any plan to use any of these platforms for terminating trains. What I had heard is that services from the west that would have terminated at Victoria will run through to either Stalybridge for electric services, or Rochdale for diesel ones.

Surely they wouldn't be much use for terminating trains anyway, having no access from the lines to Salford Crescent, which is where the trains needing to terminate are coming from.

The recent Northern ITT must cast doubt over building more platforms at Salford Central? If the Chord goes ahead only one Northern train is suggested to run over it, combined with one tph to Chester, so they'd be building three platforms for 2tph, assuming TPE won't stop there.

 

[snowball]

The recent Northern ITT must cast doubt over building more platforms at Salford Central? If the Chord goes ahead only one Northern train is suggested to run over it, combined with one tph to Chester, so they'd be building three platforms for 2tph, assuming TPE won't stop there.

The pressure for this development is from the local authorities, not anyone in the rail industry. They gave it a high position in their list of transport priorities for the next 5-year period and the DfT gave it financial approval. So I think it will be built if the Chord is approved. I can't comment much on service patterns, my interest is more in infrastructure.

 

[Darren R]

Surely they wouldn't be much use for terminating trains anyway, having no access from the lines to Salford Crescent, which is where the trains needing to terminate are coming from.

The recent Northern ITT must cast doubt over building more platforms at Salford Central? If the Chord goes ahead only one Northern train is suggested to run over it, combined with one tph to Chester, so they'd be building three platforms for 2tph, assuming TPE won't stop there.

The idea was (don't know if it still is) for trains into Victoria from the Salford Crescent direction to run through to terminate at either Rochdale or Stalybridge, in order to reduce pressure on the platforms at Victoria. Trains into Victoria from the east were to terminate instead at Salford Central, thereby both reducing pressure at Victoria and giving better connections for passengers from the Calder Valley.

The Ordsall Chord will be carrying far more traffic than 2tph. The plan was (again, I don't know if it still is) for a train between Victoria and the Airport at least every fifteen minutes. Additionally, services heading for Liverpool via Chat Moss will also be able to call at Salford Central using the additional platforms. The Chester trains have no need to use the Chord - they are to run via Earlestown - but they too will be able to call at Salford Central under the plans.

 

[edwin_m]

I am old enough to remember what Rochdale station was like in the 1950's when it was quite a good sized railway station with bay platforms both west and east facing. You can still see clearly a long-disused through line platform opposite you when you stand on the platform that currently serves Manchester-bound services.

Yes, for each direction the station had two through tracks either side of an island platform, with various bays in the ends of these islands for terminating services to Oldham, Bacup, etc. The layout was later rationalised so all trains use the two sides of the former Down island, with the now virtually useless Oldham bay at its north end. I can just about remember arriving in the station on the Oldham DMU sometime in the early 70s and it seemed huge.

It is intended to reinstate the subway underneath the former southbound island to give access to a car park on the east side of the station. I think sooner or later one track will be replaced at this station - the ideal layout would be for this to be the main Up platform with the existing Up platform becoming a bi-directional facility for overtaking or terminating. The Calder Valley has no overtaking facility between the Newton Heath area and Bradford and this is a major constraint on the timetable.

 

[lejog]

Rochdale the idea for a Manchester facing bay is in the offing, one day.

IIRC a third platform complete by 2018 along with all Calder Valley Northern Hub infrastructure improvements according to the CP5 plan. The 2019 Northern Service Spec however only shows 1tph terminating at Rochdale.

 

[Llama]

A west-facing bay platform at Rochdale is the preferred option, this will provide fewer operational conflicts and less infrastructure work overall.

The existing bay platform is probably used more than you think. It is also the only platform at Rochdale an Up train can arrive in and then depart again towards Todmorden.

 

[po8crg]

My understanding is that the post-Hub plan is for all services from the west to continue to either Stalybridge or Rochdale (with electric services going to Stalyvegas and diesels to Rochdale), and for only those services from the east that can be accommodated in the bay platforms 1 and 2 being terminating services - many other services are going to become through services around Ordsall Chord.

 

[yorksrob]

It's almost as if it would be handy to have some sort of a loop East of Victoria to send trains around

 

[stockport1]

It's almost as if it would be handy to have some sort of a loop East of Victoria to send trains around

ahh metro link....and its also not a hinderance to the mid Cheshire lines capabilities either!

 

[martynbristow]

The former: the ITT requires a service from Bradford to Chester, but will almost certainly start from Leeds and presumably be a fast/semi-fast up the Calder Valley via Victoria and Earlestown/Warrington BQ.

There will be 2 fast TPE's to Liverpool, running from Victoria from the 2017 change according to the ITT, with potentially other changes too. Of course these will be through trains.
1 of these is replacing the Lime St stopper i believe but that may not be how it pans out.
I've never seen Victoria *busy* but it seems to be used as a shed sometimes. Piccadilly can cope with 2 through platforms so I don't know why Victoria will be any different. I think a restructuring of where they leave trains is all thats needed.