Manchester Victoria or Manchester Piccadilly

[Chester1]

I would not change the concourse. The space & light works well, it’s just the through platforms and the fact that there are not enough of them that is the issue. P1 & 2 will eventually become redundant as train lengths increase, so I could see them being converted to either more concourse space or terminating metrolink platforms.

The pub is a nice place to sit & wait. The platforms... less so. I’m awaiting my first trip to the Victoria Tap and of it is stocking a range anything like the Piccadilly Tap then I’ll be happy.



If P1 & P2 were removed I doubt they be going towards concourse space. In fact I wonder if the original ten bay platforms existed today, how much use they’d be and how long they’d have left for this world? What can you do with a city centre terminus that can only fit 3-4 car trains? We’re the original platforms longer? It seems odd that the Victorians would build so many short platforms.

Western bays would be the most useful thing - long enough to hold 6 cars at least. The east-facing ones don't do tons, but are needed and used still - and might need lengthening. I think removing them would take out a lot of flexibility, especially given closures over the region as electrification projects continue.

One solution would be to remove the island platform and replace with a single platform that continued under the Cheetham Hill Road bridge. There doesn't seem to be much of a long term plan for how to utilise that side of the station. Its mildly useful at best.

The last redevelopment bumped Victoria above Oxford Road for me. The whole station was awful before it. Oxford Road was unfit for purpose before covid. It had insufficient facilities and platform standing space. Piccadilly is a much better station than both in every aspect apart from historic and architectural features.

I know its a bit heretical to say but the decluttering of platforms 13 and 14 combined with changes to the little mezzanine area and conversion of WH Smith into a waiting area, has been a success. It is sufficient for a 10tph service and that is the absolute maximum the corridor can reliably support.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The last redevelopment bumped Victoria above Oxford Road for me. The whole station was awful before it. Oxford Road was unfit for purpose before covid. It had insufficient facilities and platform standing space. Piccadilly is a much better station than both in every aspect apart from historic and architectural features.

I still think it's nasty. Having a gateline with advertising above it as the main visible feature speaks volumes.

I know its a bit heretical to say but the decluttering of platforms 13 and 14 combined with changes to the little mezzanine area and conversion of WH Smith into a waiting area, has been a success. It is sufficient for a 10tph service and that is the absolute maximum the corridor can reliably support.

It's better than it was but it still can't deal with the passenger numbers.

 

[yorksrob]

I still think it's nasty. Having a gateline with advertising above it as the main visible feature speaks volumes.



It's better than it was but it still can't deal with the passenger numbers.

Whilst I've never disliked Victoria, I do think that there ought to be departure boards over the gates, rather than hidden off to one side.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Whilst I've never disliked Victoria, I do think that there ought to be departure boards over the gates, rather than hidden off to one side.

The problem with that is that it encourages people to hang around the gateline, conflicting with passengers trying to exit the station.

Ultimately you can't win whatever you do, however!

 

[yorksrob]

The problem with that is that it encourages people to hang around the gateline, conflicting with passengers trying to exit the station.

Ultimately you can't win whatever you do, however!

I know, but that is at least the traditional way and if Leeds can manage with it, Vic should be able to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know, but that is at least the traditional way and if Leeds can manage with it, Vic should be able to.

If it would cause an issue, at least remove the advertising hoarding.

 

[yorksrob]

If it would cause an issue, at least remove the advertising hoarding.

Yes, that does seem out of place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, that does seem out of place.

It makes for a really claustrophobic feel, and usually only carries railway advertising so doesn't provide any value.

 

[yorksrob]

It makes for a really claustrophobic feel, and usually only carries railway advertising so doesn't provide any value.

Also, what's the point of having to a nice big glass roof of my youre just going to block it off with advertising hoardings.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also, what's the point of having to a nice big glass roof of my youre just going to block it off with advertising hoardings.

Exactly, it's just clutter. The bridge doesn't help and needs to go too (you could enter the Arena from outside instead) but just removing that hoarding would make a huge difference to the feel.

 

[Neptune]

I’m sorry but I can’t see what the issue is with the hoarding above the ticket gates (not my photo obviously).

Putting departure boards there would create a much bigger issue with people congregating in the way.

Also it isn’t blocking the roof. That’s just trying to find an issue with it.

With regards to the barriers, where should they go if not there (ie the entrance to the platforms where they need to be).

The issue is really the ridiculous Arena bridge. I 100% agree there should be no entrances to the arena within the station. File that under ‘it seemed a good idea at the time’.

 

[Ianno87]

View attachment 101817
I’m sorry but I can’t see what the issue is with the hoarding above the ticket gates (not my photo obviously).

Putting departure boards there would create a much bigger issue with people congregating in the way.

Also it isn’t blocking the roof. That’s just trying to find an issue with it.

With regards to the barriers, where should they go if not there (ie the entrance to the platforms where they need to be).

The issue is really the ridiculous Arena bridge. I 100% agree there should be no entrances to the arena within the station. File that under ‘it seemed a good idea at the time’.

Can see why they don't want departure boards above the gates there isn't much circulation / congregation space back to where Starbucks etc is - hence the departure boards off to the right where the circulation space is wider.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m sorry but I can’t see what the issue is with the hoarding above the ticket gates (not my photo obviously).

The problem is that it's pig-ugly and makes the area feel claustrophobic. It also doesn't really serve a purpose, as the platform sign isn't really visible when you're up close, it'd be better further back, e.g. attached to the Arena bridge instead (if you must have the bridge).

Putting departure boards there would create a much bigger issue with people congregating in the way.

I can see that putting departure boards there might be a bad idea. Overall I would rather there was nothing there at all, so you could enjoy the open feeling of the station and its high roof.

With regards to the barriers, where should they go if not there (ie the entrance to the platforms where they need to be).

There's nowhere else the gateline itself can really go without e.g. adding a mezzanine and separating arriving and departing flows. Expensive but probably worthwhile.

The issue is really the ridiculous Arena bridge. I 100% agree there should be no entrances to the arena within the station. File that under ‘it seemed a good idea at the time’.

Yep, they really need to close that Arena entrance/exit.

 

[Neptune]

The problem is that it's pig-ugly and makes the area feel claustrophobic. It also doesn't really serve a purpose, as the platform sign isn't really visible when you're up close, it'd be better further back, e.g. attached to the Arena bridge instead (if you must have the bridge).

I suspect that if the arena bridge wasn’t there nobody would bat an eyelid about the hoarding.

Yes it does seem like a pointless addition with it only showing directions and some adverts (which could easily be placed separately) but it hardly affects anything.

I work in and out of Vic plenty and if you want my honest opinion I’ve never really noticed it, I know it’s there but I’ve never thought once that it is in any way affecting the station.

A mezzanine would be good for additional facilities but it would be far more overpowering to the aesthetics than this little above ground addition to the barriers.

 

[YorksLad12]

The problem with that is that it encourages people to hang around the gateline, conflicting with passengers trying to exit the station.

Ultimately you can't win whatever you do, however!

I know, but that is at least the traditional way and if Leeds can manage with it, Vic should be able to.

Leeds doesn't really manage it. I was just over there; it's the Third Test (Day Three) today, the Leeds Festival and the Bank Holiday weekend. Sunday & Monday, people will be blocking access to the gateline while they look for their trains. Same as Kings Cross at the evening peak. I'm all in favour of displays but I think they should be a good 10 metres further away where people can safely congregate, and lower down.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A mezzanine would be good for additional facilities but it would be far more overpowering to the aesthetics than this little above ground addition to the barriers.

I was thinking that you'd have all the facilities including the entry gateline on the mezzanine, and just an exit downstairs. So it'd all be nicely open to the roof.

 

[Ianno87]

Leeds doesn't really manage it. I was just over there; it's the Third Test (Day Three) today, the Leeds Festival and the Bank Holiday weekend. Sunday & Monday, people will be blocking access to the gateline while they look for their trains. Same as Kings Cross at the evening peak. I'm all in favour of displays but I think they should be a good 10 metres further away where people can safely congregate, and lower down.

At London Bridge, it was specifically moved away from above the barriers because of the level of congestion it was causing. That's a more important consideration than being "traditional".

 

[XAM2175]

They could show the barrier status over the barriers, at least.
(as is now done at Glasgow Queens Street, for example)

 

[Neptune]

They could show the barrier status over the barriers, at least.
(as is now done at Glasgow Queens Street, for example)

Better idea. So long as it doesn’t block the roof

 

[Dr Hoo]

I was thinking that you'd have all the facilities including the entry gateline on the mezzanine, and just an exit downstairs. So it'd all be nicely open to the roof.

So for Platforms 1-3 you would have to go up then down again even though they are ‘on the level’. Surely not?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So for Platforms 1-3 you would have to go up then down again even though they are ‘on the level’. Surely not?

The bays are hardly used, so improving the experience for the other platforms would be the priority.

 

[WatcherZero]

Also, what's the point of having to a nice big glass roof of my youre just going to block it off with advertising hoardings.

The roof isnt glass, its ETFE (inflated plastic bags). Done to keep the weight down as its primarily free standing not supported by the walls of the station buildings only the anchor point of the roof spans on the inside corner with a line of light weight pillars to add rigidity and to stop the roof moving installed along the outside of the spans.

 

[yorksrob]

The roof isnt glass, its ETFE (inflated plastic bags). Done to keep the weight down as its primarily free standing not supported by the walls of the station buildings only the anchor point of the roof spans on the inside corner with a line of light weight pillars to add rigidity and to stop the roof moving installed along the outside of the spans.

Thanks for the clarification.

Personally I'd have preferred them to have refurbished the old roof as I think I said at the time.

 

[Neptune]

Thanks for the clarification.

Personally I'd have preferred them to have refurbished the old roof as I think I said at the time.

The old roof was absolutely knackered. The 1996 bomb didn’t help. It would have probably cost more to fix it than replace it and to be honest it wasn’t exactly a masterpiece.

I like the new roof. It lets in plenty of light and doesn’t leak like a sieve.

 

[yorksrob]

The old roof was absolutely knackered. The 1996 bomb didn’t help. It would have probably cost more to fix it than replace it and to be honest it wasn’t exactly a masterpiece.

I like the new roof. It lets in plenty of light and doesn’t leak like a sieve.

I'm not against the new roof, but I'd still have preferred the old one to have been repaired.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The roof isnt glass, its ETFE (inflated plastic bags). Done to keep the weight down as its primarily free standing not supported by the walls of the station buildings only the anchor point of the roof spans on the inside corner with a line of light weight pillars to add rigidity and to stop the roof moving installed along the outside of the spans.

Looks cheap and nasty to me. I wonder how much money it saved and how long it will last compared with a proper new glass trainshed?

 

[HSP 2]

So for Platforms 1-3 you would have to go up then down again even though they are ‘on the level’. Surely not?

The bays are hardly used, so improving the experience for the other platforms would be the priority.

The three platforms generate about 6 train moves per hour. What would be the point as Dr Hoo mentioned "about having to go up and then down when they on the level". Maybe put the gate line on the main bridge for platforms 4-6 and a gate line for platforms 1-2 and leave platform 3 open? It could cause problems with people using the other bridges. But I'm all for flat accesses, bring back the subway ramps to all platforms.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Looks cheap and nasty to me. I wonder how much money it saved and how long it will last compared with a proper new glass trainshed?

Could you nominate a 'proper new glass roof' somewhere in GB for comparison purposes to show what you have in mind? It doesn't even have to be at a station (e.g. sports venue or shopping centre).

The 'plastic' roofs that I am familiar with - Eden Project, New Street concourse, Leeds concourse and Manchester Victoria concourse - are quite pleasing to me and seem to be very effective in terms of light admission and 'self-cleaning' properties. I am sure that they have many other advantages in terms of cost, ease of installation, inherent safety in case of failure (and probably embodied carbon/energy) as well.

(I comment as someone who actually loves glass as a material and even worked for a glass and glazing company for a short period before my railway career.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could you nominate a 'proper new glass roof' somewhere in GB for comparison purposes to show what you have in mind? It doesn't even have to be at a station (e.g. sports venue or shopping centre).

I was suggesting a newly built classic trainshed (there aren't any new ones as the existing ones were all retained). But isn't Kings Cross glass at the top?

I have also long thought the Midsummer Place shopping centre in MK would make a good trainshed, though it is only partially glass.

Central Milton Keynes shopping centre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Edit: Waterloo Intl is probably the newest glass trainshed.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Fair comment regarding King's Cross. I haven't had much success in finding a cost figure for the 'new' roof on its own although I note that the whole modernisation cost £800,000,000 for the Underground and £547,000,000 for the mainline station at c. 2010 prices, planned and delivered over 14 years.

In contrast the Manchester Victoria makeover is quoted as £44,000,000 with a modest £20,000,000 for the roof. [Various items grabbed off the internet. Not claiming to be highly accurate.]

I suppose that you get what you pay for; although if I had loads of money to throw at Victoria I think that I'd have other priorities than blowing it all on a swanky roof.