Manchester - Stockport Fares

[itsjamierawr]

So today I purchased a Manchester STNS - Stockport Off Peak Return (with YP railcard) from one of the Virgin TVMs at Piccadilly. I was in a rush so just hit the first return fare I saw at the top and boarded the next service (a Virgin London Euston one).

It was on board I noticed the tickets were "Route: Virgin Trains Only". As I wanted the extra flexibility coming back (and there being a pound or two difference in fare) I went to the ticket office at Stockport to ask if I could pay for the excess to get it up to an "Any Permitted" ticket (which can also be purchased from TVMs, just my own fault as I wasn't paying attention!).

The reply from the rather rude/unhelpful bloke: "Nope, this is Virgin only so they wouldn't get the money from this." - I tweeted Virgin Trains and was told that shouldn't be the case and they'd look into it but I was wondering if this is true on here or if there is another more complex reason you can't excess it (I ended up buying a single "Any Permitted" and got my money's worth as it was Manchester CTLZ so I used it on the tram).

 

[Urban Gateline]

The Clerk was right, TOC only restricted tickets cannot be excessed into another routing.

 

[itsjamierawr]

The Clerk was right, TOC only restricted tickets cannot be excessed into another routing.

Ahh fair enough then, perhaps it could have been explained a bit better to me at the time (it wasn't like they were busy either!). I will take a better look when using the TVMs next time too! I'm only £2 out of pocket for the single I bought anyway, not a huge deal!

 

[Starmill]

I've always wondered - is there a proper reason why TOC specific fares cannot be excessed? Is it something to do with accounting? Is it somehow more open to abuse? Or is it just 'one of those rules' that nobody has the guts to challenge?

 

[Simon11]

I've always wondered - is there a proper reason why TOC specific fares cannot be excessed? Is it something to do with accounting? Is it somehow more open to abuse? Or is it just 'one of those rules' that nobody has the guts to challenge?

If you excess a TOC specific fare, then the operators will not receive their fair share of revenue. A simple example:

TOC A runs 75% of the trains while TOC B runs 25% of the trains between Y & Z.

There are two fares:
Anytime fare at £5
TOC B only fare at £4

If a customer purchases the TOC B only fare at £4, then decides they wish to excess to an anytime product; the customer will pay an additional £1. Of this £1, TOC A will receive 75p while TOC B earns an additional 25p.

In total for this "Anytime" fare, TOC A receives 75p while TOC B receives £4.25.

Compare the amount earned for TOC A of 75p running 75% of the trains, compared to the £3.75 they would have received with the tickets being sold from the outset!

 

[Starmill]

I see - so its down to a lack of sophistication in the accounting and revenue distribution system.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I see - so its down to a lack of sophistication in the accounting and revenue distribution system.

Kind of. Revenue allocation is done on a per ticket basis. There's no way to link an Excess back to the original sale and adjust the allocatiins retrospectively.

 

[telstarbox]

And presumably the number of excesses sold isn't high enough to justify a more complex system linking excesses to fares.

 

[reb0118]

The reply from the rather rude/unhelpful bloke: "Nope, this is Virgin only so they wouldn't get the money from this." - I tweeted Virgin Trains and was told that shouldn't be the case and they'd look into it but I was wondering if this is true on here or if there is another more complex reason you can't excess it [?]..........

Of course we need to know who they are to answer fully. If the clerk meant Virgin as the above sentence implies then of course he was wrong as Virgin do keep all the money (less booking office fees if issued by another agency) from a "Virgin Trains Only" ticket. If he meant the other (non specified) TOCs that operate on that flow then of course he was correct.

Simon11 has given a good reason why excesses of that type are not currently possible.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed. It sounds like it might be something very complicated to introduce...

 

[Eagle]

And presumably the number of excesses sold isn't high enough to justify a more complex system linking excesses to fares.

Even then I don't see how it would work. Using the example in Simon11's post, you'd actually have to take money away from TOC B to sell the excess. Given that the excess could be sold several months after the original ticket was (if it was bought well in advance), that's not a practicable thing to do.

 

[itsjamierawr]

Of course we need to know who they are to answer fully. If the clerk meant Virgin as the above sentence implies then of course he was wrong as Virgin do keep all the money (less booking office fees if issued by another agency) from a "Virgin Trains Only" ticket. If he meant the other (non specified) TOCs that operate on that flow then of course he was correct.

Simon11 has given a good reason why excesses of that type are not currently possible.

I assume he was implying Virgin... and he has - which I have read

 

[maniacmartin]

If you excess a TOC specific fare, then the operators will not receive their fair share of revenue. A simple example:

TOC A runs 75% of the trains while TOC B runs 25% of the trains between Y & Z.

There are two fares:
Anytime fare at £5
TOC B only fare at £4

If a customer purchases the TOC B only fare at £4, then decides they wish to excess to an anytime product; the customer will pay an additional £1. Of this £1, TOC A will receive 75p while TOC B earns an additional 25p.

In total for this "Anytime" fare, TOC A receives 75p while TOC B receives £4.25.

This is not how I understand it. I was under the impression that excess fares are not distributed at all, and the TOC that sells it just keeps all the money:

The customer will pay an additional £1, and happens to use a ticket office operated by TOC B, who keeps the whole £1. In total for this "Anytime" fare, TOC B receives £5 while TOC A gets nothing.

or

The customer will pay an additional £1, and happens to use a ticket office operated by TOC A, who keeps the whole £1. In total for this "Anytime" fare, TOC B receives £4 while TOC B gets £4

 

[CyrusWuff]

This is not how I understand it. I was under the impression that excess fares are not distributed at all, and the TOC that sells it just keeps all the money.

Newp. Section 11-5 on Page 266 of Volume 1 of the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement makes it clear that excesses are allocated in the same way as a normal ticket, which means that if you excess a TOC-specific ticket to another route, any other TOC entitled to revenue for that flow loses out.

 

[John @ home]

I was under the impression that excess fares are not distributed at all, and the TOC that sells it just keeps all the money:

That seems unlikely to me. Consider this example. A few months ago a friend needed to make a Leeds - London - Bristol - Leeds journey.

A £105.40 OFF-PEAK RETURN LEEDS - BRISTOL TEMPLE M Route NOT VIA LONDON was purchased from East Coast. My belief is that £9.49 (9%) of this goes to East Coast, and that the remaining £95.91 is split between a large number of train companies according to a complex formula, with CrossCountry getting the largest share.

A £24.80 Excess fare was then purchased at Leeds Travel Centre, operated by Northern. This converted the outward leg of the ticket only into a £155.00 SUPER OFF-PEAK RETURN LEEDS - BRISTOL TEMPLE M Route + ANY PERMITTED.

It does not seem plausible to me that Northern retain the whole £24.80. If that were so, I would expect alternative route Excess fares to be promoted heavily at ticket offices and travel centres.

 

[Deerfold]

Even then I don't see how it would work. Using the example in Simon11's post, you'd actually have to take money away from TOC B to sell the excess. Given that the excess could be sold several months after the original ticket was (if it was bought well in advance), that's not a practicable thing to do.

IF you could rely on clerks to input accurately presumably they could record what ticket type (and price) was being excessed - it wouldn't need a link to the actual ticket held.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Not necessarily, AIUI commission for ticket sales varies by who sells it, TOCs getting more than 'third parties' I beleive. So it would be important to know who sold it to get the correct figures.

 

[bb21]

Not necessarily, AIUI commission for ticket sales varies by who sells it, TOCs getting more than 'third parties' I beleive. So it would be important to know who sold it to get the correct figures.

True, however it does not sound plausible at all for the TOC who sells an excess to be keeping all the revenue.

If I excess a London Terminals - Birmingham Stns Route Via High Wycombe ticket to a Route Any Permitted ticket at Inverness, does ScotRail keep the excess? It sounds bonkers to me if true.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

True, however it does not sound plausible at all for the TOC who sells an excess to be keeping all the revenue.....

I agree, I was merely making the point to Deerfold that it is not as simple as working out what ticket was being excess fared.

 

[Deerfold]

Not necessarily, AIUI commission for ticket sales varies by who sells it, TOCs getting more than 'third parties' I beleive. So it would be important to know who sold it to get the correct figures.

That does add an extra level of complication...do any of the codes on the ticket let us know what type of organisation sold it?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The original ticket states at what time and what day, at what location and by what machine a ticket is issued, it naturally follows that you could, by taking down these details, find where it was issued, however, current excess fares do not record this information.

 

[kieron]

Kind of. Revenue allocation is done on a per ticket basis. There's no way to link an Excess back to the original sale and adjust the allocatiins retrospectively.

So would ATW get a share of £2.50 if you excess a "via Altrincham" Manchester-Chester day return (only valid on Northern, and possibly Metrolink) to an "Any Permitted" one (mostly Arriva) at a Virgin ticket office? And would Northern also get a share of the excess?

If so, I'm a bit surprised that they still offer so many tickets like that one which have a geographical route which happens to make the ticket TOC-specific.

 

[Eagle]

The "via Altrincham" isn't TOC-specific, as you could take a Northern service from Chester to Stockport and then another operator's service from there to Manchester.

In the evening peak some trains terminate at Stockport, basically forcing you to do this. That'll be the reason why it has to be route-specific rather than TOC-specific.

 

[kieron]

The "via Altrincham" isn't TOC-specific, as you could take a Northern service from Chester to Stockport and then another operator's service from there to Manchester.

My apologies. Chester-Stockport, then. Same issue, but other operators wouldn't get a tiny part of the "via Altrincham" ticket.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Revenue from fares goes through a process called ORCATS, which few people actually know the finer details of, but at a rough guess......

If the Chester-Stockport 'Via Altrincham' fare was excessed to 'Any Permitted' at a Virgin Trains ticket office, Virgin Trains would get the commission for the sale and a fair proportion of the rest for the quickest journey (changing at Crewe). Northern would probably have the the rest (with all the revenue of the original ticket) for running the only direct service. I doubt Arriva would get much, if any, of the revenue.

 

[Starmill]

Revenue from fares goes through a process called ORCATS, which few people actually know the finer details of, but at a rough guess......

If the Chester-Stockport 'Via Altrincham' fare was excessed to 'Any Permitted' at a Virgin Trains ticket office, Virgin Trains would get the commission for the sale and a fair proportion of the rest for the quickest journey (changing at Crewe). Northern would probably have the the rest (with all the revenue of the original ticket) for running the only direct service. I doubt Arriva would get much, if any, of the revenue.

Even though its easily possible, and not all that unlikely that the journey could be completed entirely on their services!

Don't you just love our Railways? Hehe.

 

[WillPS]

And presumably the number of excesses sold isn't high enough to justify a more complex system linking excesses to fares.

Surely there'd be no need for excesses, just more leniency in the issue of refunds/exhanges?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Surely there'd be no need for excesses, just more leniency in the issue of refunds/exhanges?

I don't think it's that simple.