Manchester Recovery Taskforce (timetable) consultation

[S&CLER]

If I lived in Southport I would never make these any of these journeys via Manchester Piccadilly. I would invariably change at Wigan.

That would involve a double change at Wigan and New Street (or Wolverhampton) in those cases, since there are no longer through trains from the northern WCML to the SW or Thames valley. Changing at Piccadilly is a permitted route, I understand, and acceptable to those who don't like multiple changes and are not in a hurry. I have known people go that way to Exeter and Reading for that reason.

My own trips from Southport to Piccadilly are usually to change for Buxton, Macclesfield or the Hope Valley. With a single change at Piccadilly it's no trouble, but two changes at Salford Crescent and Piccadilly would make it less attractive if the connections were not really smart.

I've just received an email from OPSTA attaching their response to the consultation, which claims that their surveys suggest more than 60% of Southport-Wigan line passengers want south side stations in Manchester.

 

[yorksrob]

Salford Crescent is one of my least favourite places to hang around for a connection. Far prefer Vic or Oxford Road.

 

[Killingworth]

Salford Crescent is one of my least favourite places to hang around for a connection. Far prefer Vic or Oxford Road.

A small scale Platform 13/14! Only been there twice. Can't recall where I was going but was routed to change at both on the same journey a few years ago.

 

[Greybeard33]

I'm not enthralled that all fast services from Sheffield seem destined to run through 13/14 at Piccadilly. In addition to the likely scrum on those platforms there's also a likely additional 2 or 3 minute walk to exit the station negating any possible journey time improvements. That includes an often crowded stairway and the travelators. As one who'd rarely be travelling to the airport the current termination of the Cleethorpes service in the main train shed suits me and many others just fine. The thought of delays coming east from Liverpool on all fast services doesn't thrill me either. More time to have to remain on Platform 13.

It depends where in Manchester you are going. Some passengers will value the option of alighting at Oxford Road rather than Piccadilly.

If the eastbound service is delayed you will be required to wait in the satellite lounge at Piccadilly, and only descend to Platform 13 when your train is a few minutes away.

 

[yorksrob]

A small scale Platform 13/14! Only been there twice. Can't recall where I was going but was routed to change at both on the same journey a few years ago.

Atherton line to Hope valley is the one I tend to do that involves changing at both Crescent and OR.

 

[Killingworth]

It depends where in Manchester you are going. Some passengers will value the option of alighting at Oxford Road rather than Piccadilly.

If the eastbound service is delayed you will be required to wait in the satellite lounge at Piccadilly, and only descend to Platform 13 when your train is a few minutes away.

That's true, quite a few used to commute to the university area by the EMR services, but far more alighted at Piccadilly. Greater numbers heading east boarded at Oxford Road to get a seat, not because that was where they'd otherwise prefer to board!

Waiting in the satellite lounge on those squat seats is not my idea of comfort. I'm much happier in one of the first floor catering establishments at the far end weighing my options - and possibly getting a slower but less crowded Northern 195 now they have wifi. (Currently 150s due to temporary Covid timetable revisions.)

 

[adrock1976]

That would involve a double change at Wigan and New Street (or Wolverhampton) in those cases, since there are no longer through trains from the northern WCML to the SW or Thames valley. Changing at Piccadilly is a permitted route, I understand, and acceptable to those who don't like multiple changes and are not in a hurry. I have known people go that way to Exeter and Reading for that reason.

My own trips from Southport to Piccadilly are usually to change for Buxton, Macclesfield or the Hope Valley. With a single change at Piccadilly it's no trouble, but two changes at Salford Crescent and Piccadilly would make it less attractive if the connections were not really smart.

I've just received an email from OPSTA attaching their response to the consultation, which claims that their surveys suggest more than 60% of Southport-Wigan line passengers want south side stations in Manchester.

Did it say 60% of how many respondents at all?

For example, if a four figure number of respondents requested south side of Manchester, I feel that there may be a case for switching both trains to run to Stockport or wherever so as to provide a consistent 30 minute frequency. However, if it is for example just five respondents, that would make it only three that would be in favour of Pic rather than Vic.

 

[Ianno87]

Did it say 60% of how many respondents at all?

For example, if a four figure number of respondents requested south side of Manchester, I feel that there may be a case for switching both trains to run to Stockport or wherever so as to provide a consistent 30 minute frequency. However, if it is for example just five respondents, that would make it only three that would be in favour of Pic rather than Vic.

Also the definition of "want".

Does that mean
-"I'd like south side, but really not that fussed if I end up at Victoria instead", or
-"I absolutely, categorically will never ever travel by train if it doesn't go directly to the south side"

These surveys also miss out people who aren't currently passengers - what is stopping them using the train? Perhaps Victoria might appeal to them more, closer to the shopping and entertainment areas...

 

[Watershed]

I've just received an email from OPSTA attaching their response to the consultation, which claims that their surveys suggest more than 60% of Southport-Wigan line passengers want south side stations in Manchester.

I'm sure if you asked the passengers of other lines, they would also rather like a direct train to the the south side stations, as well as to the Airport, at evenly spaced intervals.

Unfortunately it's just not possible to accommodate everyone's wishes given the infrastructure that exists.

And along the lines of what @Ianno87 says, surveys make it very easy to produce the outcome you want - see the classic Yes Minister clip...

 

[Bletchleyite]

These surveys also miss out people who aren't currently passengers - what is stopping them using the train? Perhaps Victoria might appeal to them more, closer to the shopping and entertainment areas...

I can't imagine that except for people who work near Vic that anyone really favours it. It's a nasty dump of a station in an inconvenient, unsafe-feeling area. Of course, the latter could be solved in part, and "outboundary Travelcards" more widely than just GM could make the tram more attractive.

 

[Ianno87]

I can't imagine that except for people who work near Vic that anyone really favours it. It's a nasty dump of a station in an inconvenient, unsafe-feeling area. Of course, the latter could be solved in part, and "outboundary Travelcards" more widely than just GM could make the tram more attractive.

Personally, the Platform 13/14 "experience" isn't much better! Crowded and windswept.

I think the main concourse of Victoria is very pleasant these days - but the bridge and sub-Arena side of the station needs a good clean and brightening up.

 

[Greybeard33]

I can't imagine that except for people who work near Vic that anyone really favours it. It's a nasty dump of a station in an inconvenient, unsafe-feeling area.

Unsafe feeling? When did you last walk between Victoria and the city centre? Better than Piccadilly Gardens.

And Victoria is conveniently situated for the main shopping area and for Spinningfields, which is a major employment area.

 

[peters]

That would involve a double change at Wigan and New Street (or Wolverhampton) in those cases, since there are no longer through trains from the northern WCML to the SW or Thames valley. Changing at Piccadilly is a permitted route, I understand, and acceptable to those who don't like multiple changes and are not in a hurry. I have known people go that way to Exeter and Reading for that reason.

My own trips from Southport to Piccadilly are usually to change for Buxton, Macclesfield or the Hope Valley. With a single change at Piccadilly it's no trouble, but two changes at Salford Crescent and Piccadilly would make it less attractive if the connections were not really smart.

I've just received an email from OPSTA attaching their response to the consultation, which claims that their surveys suggest more than 60% of Southport-Wigan line passengers want south side stations in Manchester.

Possible solutions could be:
1. A peak time only service to Piccadilly.
2. A peak time only service to Oxford Rd only.
3. An off-peak only service to Piccadilly.
4. An off-peak service to Oxford Rd.
5. An all day service to Piccadilly.
6. An all day service to Oxford Rd.
7. No weekday services to Piccadilly/Oxford Rd but hourly service on Saturdays.

Saying 60% want south side doesn't identify how many an Oxford Rd option would be suitable for or whether a off-peak only, peak only or Saturday only would suit the majority.

I travelled from a Mid-Cheshire station to Southport a few years back and in one direction, despite there being an hourly Manchester Airport to Southport service at the time, I changed at both Stockport and Bolton to avoid a very long wait at Piccadilly. Therefore, I'd suggest if you make regular journeys to Buxton you should respond saying option A isn't suitable for you, otherwise even if Southport retains an hourly service to Piccadilly you might find there's a 50 minute wait for a Buxton service at Piccadilly and if Southport doesn't retain a direct service then it could be 2 changes and a 50 minute wait!

It's a nasty dump of a station in an inconvenient, unsafe-feeling area.

I've walked from Victoria to Basebar (based in one of the railway arches) at night and didn't see any problems.

 

[LittleAH]

It's a nasty dump of a station in an inconvenient, unsafe-feeling area.

Take it you've not been walked down Sheffield St with the smack heads and prossies on a night then?

 

[BayPaul]

I'm sure if you asked the passengers of other lines, they would also rather like a direct train to the the south side stations, as well as to the Airport, at evenly spaced intervals.

Unfortunately it's just not possible to accommodate everyone's wishes given the infrastructure that exists.

And along the lines of what @Ianno87 says, surveys make it very easy to produce the outcome you want - see the classic Yes Minister clip...

Also, people are much more likely to respond to consultations if they personally are being negatively impacted. On this basis 60% seems very low.

 

[daodao]

Take it you've not been walked down Sheffield St with the smack heads and prossies on a night then?

I was once accosted in the late evening by a prostitute just off Fairfield Street, very close to Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14. I am strongly in favour of removing as many long-distance services as possible from the Castlefield line in any case; these 2 platforms are hardly a salubrious location for the arrival of out-of-town passengers. The only longer-distance services that can't really be removed from Castlefield are those between Liverpool and Sheffield. Therefore, of the 3 options, C is preferable, as it goes some way in this direction, but in my view it is not radical enough.

Passengers on services along the Castlefield line for Manchester itself could be encouraged to alight/board at Deansgate (where there is an easy Metrolink interchange) or Oxford Road, rather than at Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14, and this (together with smooth operation) would be facilitated if all services along the Castlefield line called at both these stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Take it you've not been walked down Sheffield St with the smack heads and prossies on a night then?

I haven't, but I don't know why I'd approach Piccadilly that way rather than up the ramp from Picc Gardens? Not that that's salubrious, of course, but at least the station is nice.

 

[yorksrob]

I've always found the walk from Vic, past the park and the water feature to the pub and back, perfectly pleasant.

 

[S&CLER]

Possible solutions could be:
1. A peak time only service to Piccadilly.
2. A peak time only service to Oxford Rd only.
3. An off-peak only service to Piccadilly.
4. An off-peak service to Oxford Rd.
5. An all day service to Piccadilly.
6. An all day service to Oxford Rd.
7. No weekday services to Piccadilly/Oxford Rd but hourly service on Saturdays.

Saying 60% want south side doesn't identify how many an Oxford Rd option would be suitable for or whether a off-peak only, peak only or Saturday only would suit the majority.

I travelled from a Mid-Cheshire station to Southport a few years back and in one direction, despite there being an hourly Manchester Airport to Southport service at the time, I changed at both Stockport and Bolton to avoid a very long wait at Piccadilly. Therefore, I'd suggest if you make regular journeys to Buxton you should respond saying option A isn't suitable for you, otherwise even if Southport retains an hourly service to Piccadilly you might find there's a 50 minute wait for a Buxton service at Piccadilly and if Southport doesn't retain a direct service then it could be 2 changes and a 50 minute wait!



I've walked from Victoria to Basebar (based in one of the railway arches) at night and didn't see any problems.

Returning from Buxton to Southport on Saturday evening always used to miss a connection at Piccadilly by a few minutes anyway. I spent the time having something to eat and a coffee at Piccadilly, so I didn't need to cook when I got home. Since buses from the Bakewell direction also made poor connections at Buxton, a day's walking in Derbyshire was rather a time-consuming business, though I could fill in time at Buxton shopping in Waitrose by the station. Fortunately the bus connections from Ashbourne weren't quite so bad.

Unfortunately I've deleted the email with the survey result on it, so I can't say what the size of the sample was. Does any other OPSTA member in the forum still have it?

 

[scrapy]

When taking a train I don't think I've ever gone to a particular station because it looks nice or the walk there is nice. I (and I expect the majority) go to a station because of convenience and for many Victoria is just as convenient as Piccadilly. If you go looking you can find unsafe looking areas on the wrong side of either station but the direct walk from most areas of the city centre to the main entrances of the either station do not take you anywhere near these areas.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When taking a train I don't think I've ever gone to a particular station because it looks nice or the walk there is nice.

When I was a student I used to go home on a Wednesday evening and back quite late on. My preference was to make it onto the 2210 off Lime St which called at Oxford Road (so I could just walk down the ramp and straight onto a bus), but that was fairly tight. So I'd often end up on the 23something, which was all stops to Warrington Central then fast to Piccadilly only (Oxford Road closed at midnight; the last train that called there was one from Chester which I think did so actually at 2359). I didn't like that all that much, felt quite vulnerable. I would definitely not have liked walking up from Victoria as certainly in the 90s that felt *a lot* dodgier.

 

[Ianno87]

When I was a student I used to go home on a Wednesday evening and back quite late on. My preference was to make it onto the 2210 off Lime St which called at Oxford Road (so I could just walk down the ramp and straight onto a bus), but that was fairly tight. So I'd often end up on the 23something, which was all stops to Warrington Central then fast to Piccadilly only (Oxford Road closed at midnight; the last train that called there was one from Chester which I think did so actually at 2359). I didn't like that all that much, felt quite vulnerable. I would definitely not have liked walking up from Victoria as certainly in the 90s that felt *a lot* dodgier.

It has changed a *lot* since then. That was before the creation of the Printworks, Urbis, Exchange Square, the second city Metrolink crossing and the various gardens in front of the Chetham's School of Music that has created a lot more "hustle and bustle" in the area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has changed a *lot* since then. That was before the creation of the Printworks, Urbis, Exchange Square, the second city Metrolink crossing and the various gardens in front of the Chetham's School of Music that has created a lot more "hustle and bustle" in the area.

Really could do with getting up there for a wander once lockdown is over!

But that aside, Vic is still a horrid, horrid station (were it not for some nice architecture on the old bit it'd probably be my most disliked major station) and Picc is very pleasant, one of the best (other than 13/14 themselves), indeed before Kings Cross was done up it was down in my eyes as best. That's why I have proposed changes to it before (there's a thread in Speculative Ideas about it) to actually make it fitting as a big city major station as it has now (once again) seemingly become, rather than its 1990s-2010s role of basically Liverpool Central* above ground with DMUs.

* Which is also a manky station, though not at least fume filled and with 15 minute frequencies not really likely to need much hanging around.

 

[yorkie]

Indeed just to add the link to the thread for any alternative ideas/suggestions (i.e. anything not covered by the actual proposals) here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/we-need-to-talk-about-castlefield-again.204599/

 

[Djgr]

For what it is worth, I would consider in 2021 Victoria and Piccadilly essentially equally central and equally salubrious areas. (There are clearly issues throughout much of Central Manchester.)

Whilst Piccadilly is indeed generally a much nicer station than Victoria, the disaster area that is 13/14 would push its overall score down towards that of Victoria.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed just to add the link to the thread for any alternative ideas/suggestions (i.e. anything not covered by the actual proposals) here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/we-need-to-talk-about-castlefield-again.204599/

To add to that this is the one I created about improving Vic itself:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-could-manchester-victoria-be-improved-and-does-it-need-to-be.212239/

 

[Starmill]

I do find it really odd how many people are in support of the intercity service between Manchester and Scotland calling at Chorley, given the massive fuss kicked up about Bolton on those services. Of course, it could be the Cumbria service instead, but there are two issues with that: a) TPE will resist quite strongly running via Parkside Jn again and b) there's no guarantee you'd have all 5 and 6 cars, so you'd risk people for Bolton and Chorley crushing into a 3 car DMU. Again.

The similar issue presents itself on the Mid-Cheshire line. There are likely to be an awful lot of people for Knutsford and Northwich and presumably max 4 car set.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do find it really odd how many people are in support of the intercity service between Manchester and Scotland calling at Chorley, given the massive fuss kicked up about Bolton on those services.

What's wrong with the 2 long EMUs per hour at Chorley?

 

[TheSel]

Unfortunately I've deleted the email with the survey result on it, so I can't say what the size of the sample was. Does any other OPSTA member in the forum still have it?

The sample size does not appear to be stated in the OPSTA email, the relevant section of which reads:

"Repeated passenger surveys including an independent survey by AECOM and analysis of train operator data shows that Journeys to Manchester are destination specific to one of the five city centre stations for reasons of work, business, study, health, leisure and in the case of Piccadilly connections to rest of the country.

"Those stations are Salford Central and Victoria to the north of the city centre and Deansgate, Oxford Road and Piccadilly along the congested Castlefield rail line to the south. Over 70% of passengers boarding a train west of Wigan will be travelling to one of those destinations with over 60% (almost two thirds) needing to get to the south side."


Of course the problem (from OPSTA's point of view) appears to be (note appears to be - I am not a member of the group, merely a recipient of their emails) that EACH of the three options involves losing ALL Southport - Deansgate / Oxford Road / Piccadilly services other than one option which retains a token peak hour train which would go as far as Oxford Road only. Essentially, for those who would prefer or require a service to the South side, it's rather like asking a turkey which of three flavours of stuffing it would prefer to be served with.

 

[Ianno87]

What's wrong with the 2 long EMUs per hour at Chorley?

Chorley fits the "should have 4tph" bill in my eyes; decent size town with station Park and Ride, that is up against a relatively attractive Motorway journey to Manchester (straight onto the M61 at Junction 8).