Manchester Recovery Taskforce (timetable) consultation

[PTR 444]

How practical would it be to divert some Manchester - Liverpool/Chester trains via Golborne before reversing back onto the Chat Moss Line to continue westbound/eastbound?

 

[Ianno87]

How practical would it be to divert some Manchester - Liverpool/Chester trains via Golborne before reversing back onto the Chat Moss Line to continue westbound/eastbound?

Not very.

 

[peters]

Has anyone considered that the likely outcome will probably be a mix of the options? Think back to 2016 when Northern were getting public opinion on seats A,B and C for the new trains......

Wasn't that a case of the public overwhelming chose A but Arriva found an improved C option would cost less than A and a few people asked how much leg room there would be if option A was chosen, so Arriva claimed C was the compromise the public wanted? I'm also not sure the public who tested the options at stations like Leeds were aware there were plans to use the new trains on services over 100 miles in length.

I am of the view that there shouldn't be any peak hour variations in the final option that is chosen, as they confuse the travelling public, complicate service patterns unnecessarily and are likely to cause operational issues.

I'm generally in favour of consistent services but if an option which doesn't include off-peak services terminating at Hazel Grove is chosen that doesn't necessarily mean peak time extras must continue to Buxton just so the service is consistent, even if there isn't demand for more than 2 trains per hour to Buxton.

Under option C the Liverpool to Sheffield services will provide the direct Manchester Oxford Road to Stockport services. It makes sense to have additional direct trains from Oxford Road to Stockport at peak times if they can be accommodated and I guess it would be easier to fit in a Wigan to Hazel Grove service, than an additional Liverpool to Sheffield.

 

[PTR 444]

Not very.

Maybe not now, but possibly could be more feasible after HS2 2b is built as its proposed connection to the WCML is north of Golborne.

 

[kieron]

No suitable service that could call at a new Golborne is included in option A. Options B and C just include a peak only service from Wigan North Western to Hazel Grove via the Chat Moss line.

This consultation is for the May-December 2022 timetable. Unless they build and open a station before the end of next year, there won't be anywhere for a train to call, whatever option they end up with.

 

[peters]

This consultation is for the May-December 2022 timetable. Unless they build and open a station before the end of next year, there won't be anywhere for a train to call, whatever option they end up with.

Exactly. The consultation relates to finding the best option based on the existing infrastructure, it mentions they will be further changes in the long term when additional infrastructure becomes available.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the now disused platforms at Golborne, when the Metropolitan Counties came into being in 1974 was the Wigan bound platform in Merseyside and the Liverpool/Manchester/London platform in Greater Manchester as the boundary between the two is round about that area?

 

[Greybeard33]

The proposed Golborne station has also been discussed in the New Station Calendar thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-station-calendar.169424/page-10#post-4984535

 

[geoffk]

Would it be more palatable if there were platforms on the Castlefield (and Chat Moss) tracks at Salford C, To reduce the double-back? But then are people (eg Atherton line) having to play pot luck as to where they change for the Deansgate route?

Assuming you mean Salford Central, additional platforms were planned as part of the Ordsall Chord project but the funding no longer appears to be there. The diversion of the Chat Moss lines through the old platforms 3 and 4 suggests that new platforms were always part of the plan. I read (can't remember where) that the £40m for reinstating platforms 3 and 4 and building a fifth to serve chord services could be found in the future but all platforms would be limited to 4 coach trains because of signalling constraints. Anyone know more?

 

[Class 170101]

I would say the Cumbria to Manchester Airport service needs to go via Wigan NW if the Scotland service remains via Bolton otherwise there is no point to Golborne Station. Secondly would it mean if Cumbria services didn't run via Golborne that no services would do? Closure procedures for Golborne Chord?

 

[Ianno87]

I would say the Cumbria to Manchester Airport service needs to go via Wigan NW if the Scotland service remains via Bolton otherwise there is no point to Golborne Station. Secondly would it mean if Cumbria services didn't run via Golborne that no services would do? Closure procedures for Golborne Chord?

1) I'm sure a 'token' service would be sent that wait each day to avoid closure (i.e. as was the case prior to 2013)

2) Other suggestion I've seen would be some sort of Wigan-Liverpool service to serve the station instead.

 

[The Planner]

Maybe not now, but possibly could be more feasible after HS2 2b is built as its proposed connection to the WCML is north of Golborne.

Would add 10 minutes into a Chat Moss schedule to do that.

 

[scrapy]

1) I'm sure a 'token' service would be sent that wait each day to avoid closure (i.e. as was the case prior to 2013)

Options B and C would at least have peak time Hazel Grove to Wigan services which would run that way. Not enough to provide a decent business case for a new station though there are also a few Wigan to Liverpool's that run that way at peak time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2) Other suggestion I've seen would be some sort of Wigan-Liverpool service to serve the station instead.

While we are probably heading into the territory of needing another thread, I have seen that suggested (a second hourly fast Liverpool-Preston service) which could serve it.

Go on, I'll create one.

Edit: here you go: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/golborne-station-if-it-opens-how-might-it-be-served.213933/

 

[Greybeard33]

1) I'm sure a 'token' service would be sent that wait each day to avoid closure (i.e. as was the case prior to 2013)

2) Other suggestion I've seen would be some sort of Wigan-Liverpool service to serve the station instead.

I did not think that the eastern curve (to Parkside Junction) was used by passenger services at all until the Scotland services were diverted that way in 2013 (to enable TPE to use EMUs prior to Bolton electrification).

It seems to me that the Option B and C peak Wigan NW - Hazel Grove via Golborne service is intended to forestall objections from Wigan - Manchester commuters to the diversion of the Cumbria services via Bolton.

 

[Ianno87]

I did not think that the eastern curve (to Parkside Junction) was used by passenger services at all until the Scotland services were diverted that way in 2013 (to enable TPE to use EMUs prior to Bolton electrification).

Checking PSUL you are in fact right.

Although until 2007 an early VXC Manchester-Glasgow and late Glasgow-Manchester ran that way (presumably for route retention). That seems to have been perpetuated by TPE until Dec 2008, and then dropped after that.

Intrigued how that slipped by unnoticed when at the same time there were the issues that resulted in the Wandsworth Road-Kensington Olympia service 'down south'. Perhaps in Golborne's case it's not an "ex-BR" service?

 

[Class 170101]

TPE used to run the 03:30 Blackpool to Manchester Aiport via Wigan non-stop and an evening return. Now run by Northern.

 

[WatcherZero]

Assuming you mean Salford Central, additional platforms were planned as part of the Ordsall Chord project but the funding no longer appears to be there. The diversion of the Chat Moss lines through the old platforms 3 and 4 suggests that new platforms were always part of the plan. I read (can't remember where) that the £40m for reinstating platforms 3 and 4 and building a fifth to serve chord services could be found in the future but all platforms would be limited to 4 coach trains because of signalling constraints. Anyone know more?

£20m Local transport funding was provided for the additional platforms on the running lines which was to take place after the existing platforms were refurbished, but Network Rail blew the entire budget on the refurbishment and then turned around and said 'sorry we overspent, if you want the additional platforms you will have to give us another £20m.'

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I can't see that Southport is especially important in the grand scheme of things.

Is that why Merseyrail have the service frequency to Southport that they do? It is still a seaside resort and Southport station is a damn sight more customer-friendly than the Blackpool North station which seems to be run by a still-existing branch of the Stasi.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that why Merseyrail have the service frequency to Southport that they do? It is still a seaside resort and Southport station is a damn sight more customer-friendly than the Blackpool North station which seems to be run by a still-existing branch of the Stasi.

Don't make the mistake of considering that Merseyrail is used like Manchester suburban rail - it's not - it's much more like Metrolink or a bus route, which means there are considerable intermediate and non-city-centre journeys as well, and the pattern is deliberately kept simple which means you do overserve some places, e.g. the smaller stations at the outer ends like Aughton Park.

 

[peters]

Is that why Merseyrail have the service frequency to Southport that they do?

The Southport to Liverpool service goes into Moorfields and Central, yet there doesn't appear to be complaints about Southport not having a direct service to Lime Street or James Street.

 

[Llandudno]

Is that why Merseyrail have the service frequency to Southport that they do? It is still a seaside resort and Southport station is a damn sight more customer-friendly than the Blackpool North station which seems to be run by a still-existing branch of the Stasi.

The Merseyrail service to/from Southport is extremely busy and could probably justify a 10 minute frequency, but this would throw out the regular, clock face timetable across the network which is the secret of Merseyrail’ success - along with free travel for pensioners of course!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Merseyrail service to/from Southport is extremely busy and could probably justify a 10 minute frequency, but this would throw out the regular, clock face timetable across the network which is the secret of Merseyrail’ success - along with free travel for pensioners of course!

I understand the main reason you can't up Merseyrail to a 10 minute base* - something I would be very supportive of - is the level crossings on the Southport line which would barely ever be open.

* Half to Chester, half to E. Port and probably turn half the Ormskirks at Maghull N, I'd think.

 

[Djgr]

The Southport to Liverpool service goes into Moorfields and Central, yet there doesn't appear to be complaints about Southport not having a direct service to Lime Street or James Street.

Indeed but the Moorfields to Lime Street, Lime Street to Central connections are very frequent, much more so than the various options suggested for changing in Manchester.

Also, Salford Crescent, Oxford Road, Victoria and Picc 13/14 are all perceived, probably correctly, as stressful places to change trains

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2021 ==

Is that why Merseyrail have the service frequency to Southport that they do? It is still a seaside resort and Southport station is a damn sight more customer-friendly than the Blackpool North station which seems to be run by a still-existing branch of the Stasi.

There is also a lot of commuter traffic down to Liverpool, even more from the likes of Birkdale and Ainsdale. I'm not sure that there is so much in the Manchester direction and with a couple of exceptions the line from Southport to Wigan consists of empty space.

Example passenger figures Parbold 0.133m Birkdale 1.362m

 

[Starmill]

Indeed but the Moorfields to Lime Street, Lime Street to Central connections are very frequent, much more so than the various options suggested for changing in Manchester

And yet Liverpool Central offers no long-distance connections whatsoever. Wheras the only long-distance connections Southport passengers miss out on by not having a through train to Manchester Piccadilly are Bristol / Cardiff / Exeter / Plymouth and Oxford / Reading / Southampton / Bournemouth. Cardiff will soon be possible in one change at Liverpool South Parkway.

 

[Djgr]

And yet Liverpool Central offers no long-distance connections whatsoever. Wheras the only long-distance connections Southport passengers miss out on by not having a through train to Manchester Piccadilly are Bristol / Cardiff / Exeter / Plymouth and Oxford / Reading / Southampton / Bournemouth. Cardiff will soon be possible in one change at Liverpool South Parkway.

If I lived in Southport I would never make these any of these journeys via Manchester Piccadilly. I would invariably change at Wigan.

 

[Ianno87]

The Southport to Liverpool service goes into Moorfields and Central, yet there doesn't appear to be complaints about Southport not having a direct service to Lime Street or James Street.

Although Southport has *never* had a direct service to them (save for very, very historic services via the Canada Dock branch).

The electric service was simply to Exchange until the Merseyrail tunnels opened; being able just to get to Central and connect to the Wirral Line must've felt transformational!

 

[Djgr]

Although Southport has *never* had a direct service to them (save for very, very historic services via the Canada Dock branch).

The electric service was simply to Exchange until the Merseyrail tunnels opened; being able just to get to Central and connect to the Wirral Line must've felt transformational!

But there were some direct trains from Southport to Lime Street (upper level) and vv to connect with the London trains until the Link/Loop opened in the late 70s. I know because I use to travel on them!

Quite often they would be cancelled and replaced with a taxi to Liverpool Exchange.

 

[Greybeard33]

Also, Salford Crescent, Oxford Road, Victoria and Picc 13/14 are all perceived, probably correctly, as stressful places to change trains

The (pre-Covid) stress of changing at those stations was partly due to the delays caused by Castlefield corridor congestion. This resulted in overcrowded platforms, late platform changes and missed connections.

If the Task Force timetable is successful in making services punctual and connections reliable, the stress will be much reduced.

 

[Killingworth]

Indeed but the Moorfields to Lime Street, Lime Street to Central connections are very frequent, much more so than the various options suggested for changing in Manchester.

Also, Salford Crescent, Oxford Road, Victoria and Picc 13/14 are all perceived, probably correctly, as stressful places to change trains

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Feb 2021 ==


There is also a lot of commuter traffic down to Liverpool, even more from the likes of Birkdale and Ainsdale. I'm not sure that there is so much in the Manchester direction and with a couple of exceptions the line from Southport to Wigan consists of empty space.

Example passenger figures Parbold 0.133m Birkdale 1.362m

I'd commend the options for changing in Liverpool and only wish there was a similar loop below Manchester, far more use than Crossrail 2 further south!

I'm not enthralled that all fast services from Sheffield seem destined to run through 13/14 at Piccadilly. In addition to the likely scrum on those platforms there's also a likely additional 2 or 3 minute walk to exit the station negating any possible journey time improvements. That includes an often crowded stairway and the travelators. As one who'd rarely be travelling to the airport the current termination of the Cleethorpes service in the main train shed suits me and many others just fine. The thought of delays coming east from Liverpool on all fast services doesn't thrill me either. More time to have to remain on Platform 13.

I'd be very happy for Liverpool trains to continue running to the airport. Adding two longer distance routes together with a known congestion hot spot in the centre (I'm not assuming a total resolution of all ills after this operation) may not improve punctuality over the Sheffield-Manchester core, already one of the worst performing routes in the country.

Trouble is we can't all get a better service from all points of the compass to everywhere else.