Manchester Piccadilly to get ticket gates

[swt_passenger]

Some barriers don't recognise valid break of journey either, maybe that's why? I believe Cubic ones throw a "not valid" error in some instances of valid broken journeys.

That's because break of journey isn't usually programmed. It isn't a fault.

 

[WatcherZero]

Reduces the work staff have to do, ive seen often that so many board without tickets they can get only a carriage or so between stops and it can delay trolley services.

 

[Mugby]

It seems there's a conflict going on here with most TOCs wanting to close or drastically downsize booking offices in order to reduce staffing and cut costs, yet ever more ticket barriers are being installed which will always require staffing with many stations having dual entrances.

Take the case of Stoke-on-Trent, a smallish station which now has barriers on both sides which, when fully manned, require at least three people to operate them. This equates to the number of people usually on duty in the booking office.

So in the case of Manchester Piccadilly, with it's multiplicity of TOCs, who will supply gateline staff? At the present time, each TOC appears to attend to it's own usual platforms but if gates are installed, will each operator be expected to share the workload and costs? How would this affect a minimal operator such as ATW?

 

[BurtonM]

More so than ATW, EMT!

Seeing as it's a Network Rail station maybe they should provide some people - or are all the operators going to have to send staff on barrier training courses?

 

[johntea]

What I find absolutely awful about the Leeds ones is (I don't know if this has maybe been looked at/resolved by now) the fact that some will accept both tickets and smartcards, some will only take either or and some will take nothing at all!

Causes massive build ups at rush hour when people are trying to shove their tickets in 'smartcard only' barriers or vice versa!

 

[BurtonM]

Sounds like they're trying to make a fast lane system for smartcard users (so regulars), but haven't signposted it well enough.

 

[andyb2706]

So in the case of Manchester Piccadilly, with it's multiplicity of TOCs, who will supply gateline staff? At the present time, each TOC appears to attend to it's own usual platforms but if gates are installed, will each operator be expected to share the workload and costs? How would this affect a minimal operator such as ATW?

As a I regular pass through Piccadilly I have been keeping an eye on the installation of the barriers and the barriers are only going to cover platform 4 to 7 with locked gates to stop anyone getting to these platforms from any other platform without going via the concourse and the ticket barriers.

The remaining platforms will be as you where with the revenue inspectors manually checking the tickets. The ticket barriers will be manned be Virgin Trains staff.

The gates have been paid for by Virgin Trains themselves and I suspect that there is some agreement in place already with other operators. Don't forget ATW, Northern, Cross Country, TPE and EMT all serve Stockport which also has barriers and is staffed by Virgin so it is possibly just some extension on this.
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Sounds like they're trying to make a fast lane system for smartcard users (so regulars), but haven't signposted it well enough.

I'm not sure whether the Piccadilly ones will be able to read smartcards but they do all seem to have barcode scanners for "print off at home tickets" or mobile phone tickets.

 

[ag51ruk]

As a I regular pass through Piccadilly I have been keeping an eye on the installation of the barriers and the barriers are only going to cover platform 4 to 7 with locked gates to stop anyone getting to these platforms from any other platform without going via the concourse and the ticket barriers.

The remaining platforms will be as you where with the revenue inspectors manually checking the tickets. The ticket barriers will be manned be Virgin Trains staff.

The gates have been paid for by Virgin Trains themselves and I suspect that there is some agreement in place already with other operators. Don't forget ATW, Northern, Cross Country, TPE and EMT all serve Stockport which also has barriers and is staffed by Virgin so it is possibly just some extension on this.
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I'm not sure whether the Piccadilly ones will be able to read smartcards but they do all seem to have barcode scanners for "print off at home tickets" or mobile phone tickets.

All of the new Virgin gates installed recently are smart card capable, but not enabled yet in most cases (the gate line staff at New Street have smart cards to open them).

The barriers at Piccadilly were a franchise extension commitment by Virgin, I believe there was a similar commitment in both the TPE and Northern franchises so the expectation is that the other platforms at Piccadilly will also receive gates at some point.

 

[greaterwest]

That's because break of journey isn't usually programmed. It isn't a fault.

Some BoJ's work in ticket barriers though. Winchfield to London Terminals will work at Farnborough and Woking's barriers. Liphook to London will work Haslemere and Guildford's. I tend to find that season tickets don't usually work for BoJ.

 

[turboslug]

TPE will be putting ticket gates on platforms 1,2 & 3 as soon as they can too part of franchise spec, rest of station after virgin barriers is whatever arriva northern decide to do.

 

[QueensCurve]

Saw this tweet from Virgin at the weekend.

How depressing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How depressing.

Don't see what is depressing about it. Hopefully they will make the thieving oiks pay their fare like the rest of us do.


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[QueensCurve]

Don't see what is depressing about it. Hopefully they will make the thieving oiks pay their fare like the rest of us do.


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Damages the aesthetics of stations while making it difficult for people meeting seeing off passengers etc.

Other ways of revenue enforcement.

 

[notlob.divad]

TPE will be putting ticket gates on platforms 1,2 & 3 as soon as they can too part of franchise spec, rest of station after virgin barriers is whatever arriva northern decide to do.

I don't think Northern have any commitment in terms of ticket barriers at Manchester Piccadilly. From the Franchise Agreement:

The Franchisee shall, as proposed in its response to the Invitation to Tender, install at least the number of automatic ticket gates specified in column 2 of the table below at each of the Stations specified in the corresponding row of that table in column 1 and by the dates specified in the corresponding row in column 3 of such table and in so doing shall incur expenditure of no less than REDACTED

Sorry I don't know how to paste the table as a table but the stations are:

Liverpool Lime Street
Salford Crescent
Wigan Wallgate
Blackburn
Bolton
Bradford Forster Square
Halifax
Harrogate

No mention of Piccadilly.

 

[greaterwest]

Damages the aesthetics of stations while making it difficult for people meeting seeing off passengers etc.

Other ways of revenue enforcement.

I disagree with you. While there are other ways of revenue enforcement, barriers are by far one of the most effective ones, and they don't damage the station aesthetics too much IMO.

People seeing passengers off / meeting other passengers are more than welcome to request access to the platform to do so at the attendant's discretion.

 

[Starmill]

Barriers are not the most effective way to ensure people buy the right tickets, manual checks at stations are. There are lots of things a barrier will miss that an RPI will not.

But where they do damage the station environment they should be avoided IMO, in favour of an increase in onboard checks (plenty of which are required barriers or no if you want to be effective) and occasional, random blockades at stations.

 

[notlob.divad]

I have no problem with ticket barriers being installed. For me it is part of the modern railway with the moves towards contactless payment /smart travel cards etc, as well as being revenue protection devices I can see them making life a lot simpler going forward. However, I would suggest that focusing them on access to platforms predominantly used by suburban metro services rather than those used by long distance intercity services would be the best priority.

 

[QueensCurve]

I disagree with you. While there are other ways of revenue enforcement, barriers are by far one of the most effective ones, and they don't damage the station aesthetics too much IMO.

People seeing passengers off / meeting other passengers are more than welcome to request access to the platform to do so at the attendant's discretion.

Another bothery fact when you have to do it. I almost feel as if I am doing something wrong.

The effect on Edinburgh Waverly has been particularly damaging in my view.

 

[BurtonM]

In all fairness when TPE barrier 1-3 it'll put a lot of Hope Valley/Marple/Buxton, Hadfield and a few other odd services behind a barrier, too. That'll include a lot of poorly or unstaffed stations.
I'm still waiting to find out what's going to happen on the far end platform link bridge, and with the lift loophole.
Also, why hasn't 13/14 been barriered sooner? I'm sure that'd save Northern a few quid on their rented ticket Stasi in the longrun.

 

[Starmill]

Also, why hasn't 13/14 been barriered sooner? I'm sure that'd save Northern a few quid on their rented ticket Stasi in the longrun.

I doubt it - they would just use the STM staff on the gates, like they did at Manchester Victoria.

 

[Bevan Price]

In all fairness when TPE barrier 1-3 it'll put a lot of Hope Valley/Marple/Buxton, Hadfield and a few other odd services behind a barrier, too. That'll include a lot of poorly or unstaffed stations.
I'm still waiting to find out what's going to happen on the far end platform link bridge, and with the lift loophole.
Also, why hasn't 13/14 been barriered sooner? I'm sure that'd save Northern a few quid on their rented ticket Stasi in the longrun.

I hope they don't do anything stupid like restricting access to the footbridge. It would be very unhelpful when I have to make tight connections between late-running TP trains and a departure from Platform 14.

And putting extra gates at platforms 13/14 could result in dangerous overcrowding at busy times.

Personally, I hate the "ticket-swallowing" types of gate. They cannot be trusted to recognise valid tickets; they are slow, and cause queues, and they are unhelpful for people carrying luggage.

I have slightly less problems with "contact" recognition of tickets (e.g. ITSO passes, etc.) - these are generally much faster in operation, but these also need to be programmed to recognise all types of valid ticket. But I still prefer a competent ticket examiner person to these gate systems.

 

[Merseysider]

I can see the point of ticket barriers for local/ metro type services. Assuming you are always going to have ticket checks on long distance trains what is the point of them there?

As well as a literal barrier, it's also a deterrent, albeit not an effective one for the most determined of fare evaders.

Additionally, checks aren't always carried out on board. My journey on the 2100 EUS-MAN last night in STD passed completely without sight of the TM.

 

[edwin_m]

Additionally, checks aren't always carried out on board. My journey on the 2100 EUS-MAN last night in STD passed completely without sight of the TM.

Unfortunately, in my experience, ticket checks on board are carried out noticeably less often when the main (but not all!) stations on a route get barriers.

 

[greaterwest]

I hope they don't do anything stupid like restricting access to the footbridge. It would be very unhelpful when I have to make tight connections between late-running TP trains and a departure from Platform 14.

And putting extra gates at platforms 13/14 could result in dangerous overcrowding at busy times.

Personally, I hate the "ticket-swallowing" types of gate. They cannot be trusted to recognise valid tickets; they are slow, and cause queues, and they are unhelpful for people carrying luggage.

I have slightly less problems with "contact" recognition of tickets (e.g. ITSO passes, etc.) - these are generally much faster in operation, but these also need to be programmed to recognise all types of valid ticket. But I still prefer a competent ticket examiner person to these gate systems.

On the subject of overcrowding, ticket barriers can help stop it too (too many people on platform), and are used in such a way at big stations and during events, or in the event of few trains running due to disruption or strike action (Southern!)

 

[Mugby]

If I may digress slightly, what actually happens when a barrier swallows a ticket which is required for onward travel, how is it retrieved?

 

[mrbluelips]

Barriers are not the most effective way to ensure people buy the right tickets, manual checks at stations are. There are lots of things a barrier will miss that an RPI will not.

But where they do damage the station environment they should be avoided IMO, in favour of an increase in onboard checks (plenty of which are required barriers or no if you want to be effective) and occasional, random blockades at stations.

Wholeheartedly disagree.

The G4S inspectors at Piccadilly rarely even bother to look at the ticket - I could flash anything small and orange in their face and they'd let me through.

As for station aesthetics, well, Piccadilly is hardly a station of grandeur. It's about as plastic and modern as you can get. Ticket barriers are hardly going to ruin that.

 

[greaterwest]

If I may digress slightly, what actually happens when a barrier swallows a ticket which is required for onward travel, how is it retrieved?

There is an internal bin inside the barrier, where all retained tickets go.

 

[james2trains]

I think so! Northern have posted on Twitter that the barriers will be operational from the 16th of August. Are they all the way along to platform 1 or only on 4-7?

 

[greaterwest]

I think so! Northern have posted on Twitter that the barriers will be operational from the 16th of August. Are they all the way along to platform 1 or only on 4-7?

Here is the situation as posted two pages ago.

TPE will be putting ticket gates on platforms 1,2 & 3 as soon as they can too part of franchise spec, rest of station after virgin barriers is whatever arriva northern decide to do.

 

[greaterwest]

And, for Paul's benefit, to retain topicality, is there sufficient barrier throughput capacity, or space on the platform side at Piccadilly, to cope with a simultaneous Virgin and Cross Country arrival on a busy football day? Experienced London commuters may flash through in no time at all, but long-distance travellers, rummaging for tickets whilst juggling bags, babies, cups of coffee and such have a much slower throughput. All finely calculated by the experts no doubt. No queuing up stairs at Stoke, honest guv!

If it's a question of the safety of the revellers alighting the both trains at around the same time; all gatelines are fitted with an emergency open function for such an eventuality and there would most likely be crowd control staff on station for such events.