Manchester Piccadilly P15-16 - my idea for an alternative

[Bletchleyite]

But what about widening the junction approach to 4 tracks?

You couldn't do that by double stacking it.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The official scheme would provide a good deal of extra capacity despite remaining two tracks at the narrowest points. It just needs Grayling to stop blocking it. Westbound trains would alternate between the two westbound through platforms at Piccadilly, similarly at Oxford Road, similarly eastbound.

Grayling is only stopping it because it would take money away from London. Plus something tells me that he wants the Ordshall Chord to be a white elephant. I wonder why...

 

[LOL The Irony]

You couldn't do that by double stacking it.

Key word: Widening

 

[Altfish]

The only way of solving this is widening or double tiering. Some people are against widening, others are are against 2 tiers and the rest are against both ideas. This needs to happen and something's going to have to give and 1 group of people are going to be left unhappy. Everyone will just have to except that the outcome may not be the one they wanted.

I can't see how two tiers would work, it is going to take you almost the length from Piccadilly to Deansgate to get the 'elevated' tracks to the required height and a similar length to get them down again. AND don't forget they will have to be 4-tracks wide whilst they are getting up to and down from full height.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I can't see how two tiers would work, it is going to take you almost the length from Piccadilly to Deansgate to get the 'elevated' tracks to the required height and a similar length to get them down again. AND don't forget they will have to be 4-tracks wide whilst they are getting up to and down from full height.

That's why I originally said widen it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have no objection to widening the station approaches, but widening the whole thing would be a waste of money. 30tph or more on a double track railway is entirely possible where all trains have the same stopping pattern. You just need enough *station* capacity.

 

[PrinceBishop]

I think the existing plan of adding two new platforms at Piccadilly and straightening the through platforms at Oxford Rd is the best solution. If that doesn't get approval by Grayling I can't see that any other expensive schemes will. Once the viaduct is at capacity again it will probably be time to look at a tunnel as the long term solution. There are some signs that this is already being considered. TfGM have already said that tunnelling under the city centre is being considered as part of their long term planning and Northern Powerhouse Rail (if it ever happens) is likely to be in tunnels.

Yes, it will. Manchester isn't going to end up like some European cities with skyscrapers for every meal, as it were, it simply isn't a UK thing. Birmingham is probably about as high rise as the UK will ever get.

Quick check reveals that Birmingham currently has two buildings over 100 metres, to Manchester's four. Manchester currently has 7 buildings over 100 metres under construction, while, as far as I can make out, Birmingham has none. Many of those under construction are closer to 200 metres, and at least one will be taller than the Beetham Tower when complete. This isn't taking into account the many more which are either being planned, or hold planning permission. I have these figures from Wikipedia so they may not be exactly right, but it would certainly seem that Manchester has many more skyscrapers either planned or under construction than Birmingham at the moment. Could all change in future of course.

 

[Chester1]

But what about widening the junction approach to 4 tracks?

It wouldn't make a huge difference because it would just shift the bottlekneck elsewhere. Currently clearing Castlefield Junction signals takes 3 minutes limiting the theoretical maximum capacity of the whole corridor to 20tph. In reality it is lower to allow some room for error. Increasing the linespeeds of both lines to reduce the path to 2 minutes would push the bottleneck elsewhere. 4 platforms at Oxford Road and 4 through platforms at Piccadilly (with very limited length of 4 tracking into Piccadilly) combined with rebuilding Castlefield Junction to increase line speed plus closing Deansgate would provide all the capacity realistically needed. The suggestions of huge amounts of infrastructure are never going to happen and even if the government was prepared to spend the money then the
City council and Combined Authority would oppose demolishing a swathe of central Manchester. Does anyone think that capacity for more than 15tph + freight is actually neccessary?

 

[LOL The Irony]

It wouldn't make a huge difference because it would just shift the bottlekneck elsewhere. Currently clearing Castlefield Junction signals takes 3 minutes limiting the theoretical maximum capacity of the whole corridor to 20tph. In reality it is lower to allow some room for error. Increasing the linespeeds of both lines to reduce the path to 2 minutes would push the bottleneck elsewhere. 4 platforms at Oxford Road and 4 through platforms at Piccadilly (with very limited length of 4 tracking into Piccadilly) combined with rebuilding Castlefield Junction to increase line speed plus closing Deansgate would provide all the capacity realistically needed. The suggestions of huge amounts of infrastructure are never going to happen and even if the government was prepared to spend the money then the
City council and Combined Authority would oppose demolishing a swathe of central Manchester. Does anyone think that capacity for more than 15tph + freight is actually neccessary?

That's not to increase T'sPH. It's for ease of access. Like my plan to widen the whole thing. Ease of access/planning.

 

[185]

It's a shame we never build a massive third station, a west facing terminal around the Midland Hotel / GMEX area.

Oh... err hang on....

 

[Altfish]

It's a shame we never build a massive third station, a west facing terminal around the Midland Hotel / GMEX area.

Oh... err hang on....

Indeed.
Transport planning in the late 60's, 70's and 80's left a lot to be desired

 

[LOL The Irony]

It's a shame we never build a massive third station, a west facing terminal around the Midland Hotel / GMEX area.

Oh... err hang on....

Well played. Now if only you could be able to get from Cheshire to Manchester in 11 minutes...

 

[Altfish]

Well played. Now if only you could be able to get from Cheshire to Manchester in 11 minutes...

Yes, but the boundary has moved!

 

[Chester1]

This is basically a fantasy thread... No one would build an additional terminal station in Manchester now or in the last hundred years. Manchester and Salford city centres had (under different names) Piccadilly, Mayfield, Oxford Road, Deansgate, Manchester Central, Salford Central, Exchange and Victoria because of a legacy of railway building by numerous competing companies. Double decking and any other proposal for demolishing a swathe of existing infrastucture and / or nearby buildings are a fantasy. There is one proposal waiting government approval (Piccadilly platforms 15 and 16) and one alternative that has not been developed yet (some sort of rebuild of Castlefield Junction possibly including closing Deansgate). The only reversal of previous closures that may happen could be building terminating platforms on the approach to Victoria to partly componsate for the loss of platforms when the arena was built. Rebuilding, Castlefield Junction, Oxford Road and building platforms 15 and 16 would cost maybe £500m~ and provide all the capacity that will be neccessary for decades. Any additional services from the west and north west of Manchester could run through or terminate at Victoria.

 

[185]

Imagine persuading someone to the left of politics, perhaps should he (or, she) get into power, to take back by comp purchasing & nationalising both Manchester Central and Manchester Arena & it's car park for the (obscure, obviously) purpose of being fit for purpose, major railway stations. The question of compensating the two venues would probably involve offering them (currently an arena & a conference centre) new venues at different locations. Far fetched, but who knows where we'll be in 10 years.

 

[Altfish]

Imagine persuading someone to the left of politics, perhaps should he (or, she) get into power, to take back by comp purchasing & nationalising both Manchester Central and Manchester Arena & it's car park for the (obscure, obviously) purpose of being fit for purpose, major railway stations. The question of compensating the two venues would probably involve offering them (currently an arena & a conference centre) new venues at different locations. Far fetched, but who knows where we'll be in 10 years.

Building HS2 would be cheaper

 

[Bletchleyite]

And not even necessary. Build P15/16 at Picc and the Oxford Road enhancements (and close Deansgate) and there will be no need for it at all.

Oh, and no silly short trains - portion work with joining/splitting well away from Manchester to save paths.

 

[shredder1]

Think that's more to do with the way Railway infrastructure is built in Europe verses how we do things here.

Yes that sounds about right

 

[shredder1]

But digging down to extend a station (and I agree Antwerpen Centraal is a very nice job, as is Berlin Hbf) is rather different from what would be a horrid blight on central Manchester by stacking another double track viaduct onto the existing one.

I think compared with the infamous Piccadilly Garden`s wall it might not look too bad

 

[Chester1]

Imagine persuading someone to the left of politics, perhaps should he (or, she) get into power, to take back by comp purchasing & nationalising both Manchester Central and Manchester Arena & it's car park for the (obscure, obviously) purpose of being fit for purpose, major railway stations. The question of compensating the two venues would probably involve offering them (currently an arena & a conference centre) new venues at different locations. Far fetched, but who knows where we'll be in 10 years.

That is a fantasy. There is a possibility of a Labour government in the next few years and a very high chance over the long term but they will not waste a fortune for the sake of nostalgia. Rebuilding Oxford Road, building Piccadilly platforms 15 and 16, closing Deansgate Station and speeding up Castlefield Junction would provide all the capacity neccessary. No one would suggest building a station on the site of Manchester Central if there hadn't been a station there 50 years ago. Any service terminating there would take away the oppertunity to change at Victoria or Piccadilly. I agree that Victoria was reduced too much in the 1990s but there is space for 2 terminating platforms on the western approach, any major work at Victoria will be around the arena and not demolishing it.

 

[HSTEd]

Is closing Deansgate station actually required?
Sacrificing the interchange with Metrolink is something of a significant downside.

And portion working would likely require substantial additional platform capacity at already heavily rationalised outlying stations and is thus rather problematic.

Pity HS2 can't feed trains onto that side of the Piccadilly throat.

 

[Altfish]

Is closing Deansgate station actually required?
Sacrificing the interchange with Metrolink is something of a significant downside.

And portion working would likely require substantial additional platform capacity at already heavily rationalised outlying stations and is thus rather problematic.

Pity HS2 can't feed trains onto that side of the Piccadilly throat.

Not sure, but it would help. There are 5 stoppers in each direction most hours.
You could build a station adjacent to Cornbrook Tram stop that would capture all the Liverpool stoppers but the Preston/Southport ones are still missing out.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Imagine persuading someone to the left of politics, perhaps should he (or, she) get into power, to take back by comp purchasing & nationalising both Manchester Central and Manchester Arena & it's car park for the (obscure, obviously) purpose of being fit for purpose, major railway stations. The question of compensating the two venues would probably involve offering them (currently an arena & a conference centre) new venues at different locations. Far fetched, but who knows where we'll be in 10 years.

I see the logic in re-opening Central Station (even if it means demolishing Deansgate-Castlefield tram stop) but what's the logic in buying the arena?

 

[Chester1]

Is closing Deansgate station actually required?
Sacrificing the interchange with Metrolink is something of a significant downside.

And portion working would likely require substantial additional platform capacity at already heavily rationalised outlying stations and is thus rather problematic.

Pity HS2 can't feed trains onto that side of the Piccadilly throat.

Its not required to boost capacity now. Piccadilly platforms 15 and 16 would provide the biggest increase, removing Oxford Road platform 5 and extending platforms 1-4 would allow 8-9 coach services. If further capacity is required then the next (realistic) option would rebuilding Castlefield Junction to increase line speed, this wouldn't make much difference if multiple services are stopping at Deansgate. It is worth noting that there is only 350m between the platforms at Oxford Road and Deansgate and that the proposed upgrade of Oxford Road would reduce this by a approximately 100m. There is also the possibility (although expensive) of linking Oxford Road and Deansgate-Castlefield tram stop by a covered walkway.

Not sure, but it would help. There are 5 stoppers in each direction most hours.
You could build a station adjacent to Cornbrook Tram stop that would capture all the Liverpool stoppers but the Preston/Southport ones are still missing out.

I thought both Manchester to Southport services will be from Victoria soon or did the campaign to stop the switch suceed?

I see the logic in re-opening Central Station (even if it means demolishing Deansgate-Castlefield tram stop) but what's the logic in buying the arena?

We must reverse every closure of the last fifty years!

Please could you explain the logic of reopening central rather than building two extra platforms at Piccadilly? The latter option would most likely be significantly cheaper and provide better connections. I am at a loss to why the centre of Manchester and Salford needs a sixth station in addition to eight tram stops. If location was the main reason then even rebuilding Deansgate with four platforms would be cheaper (although also a waste of money due to the proximity of Oxford Road).

 

[LOL The Irony]

You could build a station adjacent to Cornbrook Tram stop that would capture all the Liverpool stoppers but the Preston/Southport ones are still missing out.

*COUGH* Piccadilly or Oxford Road *COUGH*

 

[Altfish]

*COUGH* Piccadilly or Oxford Road *COUGH*

I Know!!
The idea was to keep a station handy for the trams for all services.

 

[TheAdelante]

In my opinion, the current through platforms at Manchester
Piccadilly always seem to be really busy! Fortunately I normally use the terminal platforms as my family like the Virgin brand, (although GWR and HT are the best in my op)

 

[Altfish]

In my opinion, the current through platforms at Manchester
Piccadilly always seem to be really busy! Fortunately I normally use the terminal platforms as my family like the Virgin brand, (although GWR and HT are the best in my op)

Virgin aren't much use if you're going to Nottingham