Manchester - Perth routes

[erk]

Fares for Manchester to Perth are routed via Carlisle, Lancaster or York. The Carlisle and Lancaster routes are both priced by Virgin West Coast, and for every ticket type the fares are the same.

Why do these two routes exist?

If you book a return on the VWC site, the system offers the Carlisle route northbound, and the Lancaster route southbound. For an off-peak journey, these are "saver half" tickets. Normally when you buy two SVHs together they are combined into an off-peak return (SVR). This doesn't happen here, presumably because the SVHs are for different routes. The effect is that the return is only valid for one day, instead of a month.

I asked Virgin about this. They tell me that "routes and fares are decided by the Association of Train Operating Companies which is beyond our control."

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Fares for Manchester to Perth are routed via Carlisle, Lancaster or York. The Carlisle and Lancaster routes are both priced by Virgin West Coast, and for every ticket type the fares are the same.
Why do these two routes exist?
If you book a return on the VWC site, the system offers the Carlisle route northbound, and the Lancaster route southbound. For an off-peak journey, these are "saver half" tickets. Normally when you buy two SVHs together they are combined into an off-peak return (SVR). This doesn't happen here, presumably because the SVHs are for different routes. The effect is that the return is only valid for one day, instead of a month.
I asked Virgin about this. They tell me that "routes and fares are decided by the Association of Train Operating Companies which is beyond our control."

If you select your route ("via Carlisle" or "via Lancaster") and then when you get the single fares display, click the text below where it talks about cheaper return fares.
This will then give you a list of all the fares, and you can click on the £100.40 return SVR fare to get a choice of trains.
The choice should of course be the same via either route!
VT don't say that this is to disguise the cheaper return fare so people will buy two singles at double the (regulated) saver fare.

 

[47271]

I travel between Perthshire and NW England a lot and, whilst I'd check the price of a through ticket, almost without exception you'd be cheaper booking Manchester-Glasgow or Edinburgh, and Edinburgh or Glasgow-Perth as two separate legs. You might be lucky with what comes up online as a through price, regardless of the routeing, but I'd be surprised.

 

[miami]

I travel between Perthshire and NW England a lot and, whilst I'd check the price of a through ticket, almost without exception you'd be cheaper booking Manchester-Glasgow or Edinburgh, and Edinburgh or Glasgow-Perth as two separate legs. You might be lucky with what comes up online as a through price, regardless of the routeing, but I'd be surprised.

MAN-PTH SVR via Carlise/Lancaster is £100.40

MAN-EDB-PTH same route is £74.20+£21.90 = £96.10

MAN-GLC-PTH same route is £78.30+£25.50 = £103.80

MAN-STG-PTH same route £94.80+£16 = £110.80

MAN-CAR-PTH £55.30+£87.40 = £142.70!!

As to the original, in the last 185 years there has only been 2 routes from England to Scotland, via Carlisle and via Berwick. There's currently no way to get north without passing through Carlisle or York either (you could avoid lancaster by going to leeds then over to Skipton and Settle)

Via Lancaster perhaps could include go Lancaster-Skipton-Leeds-York, but the via York fare is much more than the via Lancaster fare, so seems unlikely that would be a valid route.

 

[47271]

MAN-PTH SVR via Carlise/Lancaster is £100.40

MAN-EDB-PTH same route is £74.20+£21.90 = £96.10

MAN-GLC-PTH same route is £78.30+£25.50 = £103.80

MAN-STG-PTH same route £94.80+£16 = £110.80

MAN-CAR-PTH £55.30+£87.40 = £142.70!!

As to the original, in the last 185 years there has only been 2 routes from England to Scotland, via Carlisle and via Berwick. There's currently no way to get north without passing through Carlisle or York either (you could avoid lancaster by going to leeds then over to Skipton and Settle)

Via Lancaster perhaps could include go Lancaster-Skipton-Leeds-York, but the via York fare is much more than the via Lancaster fare, so seems unlikely that would be a valid route.

Sorry, I'm talking about Advances, or a mix of Advance Manchester-Glasgow and Anytime Glasgow-Perth. And I'm playing around to get the very cheapest mix for the specific journey that I want to make, so not really comparable.

My point is try to split it to get best value rather than worrying about the routeing provided by the system.

 

[najaB]

Sorry, I'm talking about Advances, or a mix of Advance Manchester-Glasgow and Anytime Glasgow-Perth. And I'm playing around to get the very cheapest mix for the specific journey that I want to make, so not really comparable.

In that case I suggest you modify your earlier statement:

I travel between Perthshire and NW England a lot and, whilst I'd check the price of a through ticket, almost without exception you'd be cheaper booking Manchester-Glasgow or Edinburgh, and Edinburgh or Glasgow-Perth as two separate legs.

As there is a pretty significant exception - when there are no Advance tickets available!

 

[47271]

In that case I suggest you modify your earlier statement:
As there is a pretty significant exception - when there are no Advance tickets available!

I did say sorry!

 

[erk]

Thanks for the various suggestions.

I did consider splitting, but the savings aren't great and there's a loss of flexibility. I actually wanted the option to return a day later than planned, which is why I'm peeved to be issued two singles instead of a return.

It does look as though LNW-GW Joint's suggestion of searching for return fares would have doen the trick, but it shouldn't be necessary. The two singles are the same price as the return, and I believe they would normally be combined into a return. I think it's the existence of the two routings, via Lancaster or Carlisle that messes it up, and I can't see any reason for these two fares both to exist.

Frustratingly, Virgin continue to insist that they have no control over the fares.

 

[Rail Ranger]

erk,

www.brfares.com is a useful website because it lists all of the available fares between any two stations.

 

[yorkie]

Frustratingly, Virgin continue to insist that they have no control over the fares.

Indeed, they don't like to admit they're wrong. You could try writing a lengthy letter and you might get £50, and/or you could refer the matter to Transport Focus or the ORR, but I doubt anything will happen. It will probably be seen as a minor issue because, at the end of the day, you did get tickets for what you specified when you booked.

 

[erk]

Thanks RailRanger. I know about brfares.com, but it doesn't explain why a given fare exists (that's not its job).

For this flow I can see no reason for separate fares to exist via Lancaster and via Carlisle, and I believe this anomaly results in Virgin's web site selling two singles where it should sell a return.

 

[miami]

Thanks RailRanger. I know about brfares.com, but it doesn't explain why a given fare exists (that's not its job).

For this flow I can see no reason for separate fares to exist via Lancaster and via Carlisle, and I believe this anomaly results in Virgin's web site selling two singles where it should sell a return.

That's really naughty, it's not clear what you're buying (thetrainline and southern don't do it - they give you the return options - fairly prominently with trainline, and very preominently with southern).

However is this really related to separate via Carlise/Lancaster routes, or is it just Virgin doing something really bad? They do the same thing with Manchester to London, but that may actually give you a return (it's not clear to me what I'd be buying).

In small print:

"The results above show single ticket prices, based on the fastest available journey, to offer more flexibility to our customers. If you are making a return journey, there may be a cheaper fare available, particularly if you are travelling with a train operator other than Virgin Trains. Please click here to check if these are available for your journey."

More flexibility? Hah!

If you click that you then get a choice

Off-Peak Return Via Lancaster £100.40
Off-Peak Return Via Carlisle £100.40
Off-Peak Return Via York £128.00

Manchester to Perth interestingly shows up Out from MAN, back to MCV, perhaps that would affect what tickets are shown?



Moral of the story, never use virgin's website to book a train, not good to encourage such behaviour.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If it is because of the multi-route, it is surely cockup-not-conspiracy, I can't see the amount that virgin get out of people who errantly expected a proper SVR rather than two SVHs on specific Manchester-Scotland routes to be worthwhile.

Why do Virgin have a different interface for "mostly Virgin" routes like MAN-PTH and MAN-EUS, but a trainline style interface for say Norwich-Hull?


brfares lists MAN-PTH as "via Carlisle" first, then "via Lancaster" second, I assume the Virgin software picks up the Via Carlise as

for a given train the fares:
- show cheapest advance, if two fares available for same price default sort (alphabetically)
- show cheapest offpeak, if two fares available for same price default sort (alphabetically)
- show cheapest fully flex, if two fares available for same price default sort (alphabetically)

For PTH-MAN there is no via Carlisle route.

Other sites (like Southern), show two SVR tickets, and you can choose either one.

MAN-Inverness/Wick/Aberdeen and back are via Lancaster. MAN-Glasgow/Edinburgh and back are via Carlisle. Perth and nearby stations (Gleneagles, Dunkeld) is sort of on a border between the central belt and the north, I wonder if historically the fares were set by two different groups, and Perth had both routes loaded, at least in one direction, and they can't be removed due to some agreement?

 

[philjo]

If you try Stockport to Perth the fares I looked at are the same as those from Manchester.
There are only 2 routes listed - Lancaster or York. the off-peak return allows break of journey on the outward journey.

 

[erk]

If you try Stockport to Perth the fares I looked at are the same as those from Manchester.
There are only 2 routes listed - Lancaster or York. the off-peak return allows break of journey on the outward journey.

Yes, Stockport is a different cluster from Manchester. As paulweaver spotted, the extra route is also missing from Perth - Manchester tickets. There aren't many fares that aren't reversible.

All things considered I favour paulweaver's cock-up theory. A letter is on its way to Virgin.

 

[erk]

Indeed, they don't like to admit they're wrong. You could try writing a lengthy letter and you might get £50, and/or you could refer the matter to Transport Focus or the ORR, but I doubt anything will happen. It will probably be seen as a minor issue because, at the end of the day, you did get tickets for what you specified when you booked.

This predicition has proved correct, though I kept the letter brief! I now have a £50 RTV and (not brief) letter of waffle.