Manchester Metrolink orbital proposal

[telstarbox]

Greater Manchester could get its own answer to the London Underground’s Circle Line, the M.E.N. can reveal - by building an orbital tram route.

Several town hall bosses are pushing for Metrolink to run right around the conurbation, starting to the east and south.

Officers from Oldham and Tameside councils have been working on initial proposals of a ‘tram M60’ for several months, with Stockport, Trafford and Rochdale town halls also keen to get on board.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.../metrolink-circular-line-call-greater-9506106

I can see the logic as the heavy rail and Metrolink lines in the east half of Greater Manchester are mostly radial - a Bury to Stockport arc would join up the large centres of Bury, Rochdale, Oldham, Ashton and Stockport. It would then not be much further to East Didsbury or the Airport...

Going out on a 'crayonista' limb here but could it take over the Denton line (thus providing interchanges with NR at Stockport and Stalybridge) or is that required for freight?

It would be more like the Overground than the Circle Line though!

 

[Busaholic]

Personally, I always feel a tram/light rail system has 'come of age' when an orbital route is mentioned as a serious proposition. Not everywhere is large enough to need such a scheme, but Greater Manchester would surely qualify?

 

[Haydn1971]

I'm not so sure "orbital" gives the right clarity - looking at a geographical map, theres really good coverage specifically in SW and East Manchester and I'd imagine something more of a "quarter" 2 o'clock to 7 o'clock type link - For example, linking Oldham, Ashton, Hyde, Stockport, Airport & Sale - or perhaps even a Tram-Train using the Reddish and Cheadle lines as the starting points ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not so sure "orbital" gives the right clarity - looking at a geographical map, theres really good coverage specifically in SW and East Manchester and I'd imagine something more of a "quarter" 2 o'clock to 7 o'clock type link - For example, linking Oldham, Ashton, Hyde, Stockport, Airport & Sale - or perhaps even a Tram-Train using the Reddish and Cheadle lines as the starting points ?

Interestingly there used to be an orbital-ish bus route doing roughly what you say but it got withdrawn due to poor patronage. I think a tram would be better used, though.

 

[telstarbox]

Yes, especially based on the success of the recent Metrolink extensions.

Anecdotally, some passengers are more inclined to use light rail than a bus because the route is more obvious (the stops are more 'fixed', no need to determine between the 26, 26A and 26X part route) and there's a general perception of higher quality.

 

[WatcherZero]

Been some talk of it for a while, next expansion phase being based around Stockport and Airport and tied in to HS2 Airport station development.

Altrincham-Stockport with an interchange for the airport line at Bagueley, couple of lines serving suburbs of Stockport and a line up from Stockport to Oldham via Ashton. Finally completion of the airport loop linking airport, airport hs2 and then up to rejoin existing Airport line line via Wythenshawe hospital.

 

[Searle]

Anecdotally, some passengers are more inclined to use light rail than a bus because the route is more obvious (the stops are more 'fixed', no need to determine between the 26, 26A and 26X part route) and there's a general perception of higher quality.

I agree, whilst in Europe, I'd happily take trams, but would be more wary about buses, for the reasons you say. Obviously I'd be more confident in Manchester than Belgrade, but others may not be so. I would imagine a tram line would be better advertised than a bus service as well, which would bring more ridership

 

[northwichcat]

I would imagine a tram line would be better advertised than a bus service as well, which would bring more ridership

Every tram stops at all stops which are clearly announced and have clear signage, so it's more user friendly than a bus for people unfamiliar with the area.

Also trams don't see the frequent change of routes that some bus services see due to needing to staying on the tram lines. For instance, Metrolink aren't one day going to decide to re-route Altrincham to Manchester trams to serve Sale Water Park.

 

[WatcherZero]

That's true, when im using a bus service in a different part of the country the hardest thing to keep track of is where you are and when you need to get off. Particularly knowing when to ring the bell when you don't know whether the stop you want is 30 seconds away for 10 minutes, or a bus route that doubles back on itself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's true, when im using a bus service in a different part of the country the hardest thing to keep track of is where you are and when you need to get off. Particularly knowing when to ring the bell when you don't know whether the stop you want is 30 seconds away for 10 minutes, or a bus route that doubles back on itself.

Made much easier with a smartphone and the increasing prevalence of "next stop" displays, of course.

 

[northwichcat]

Made much easier with a smartphone

But you don't want GPS running all day otherwise you're battery will be dead, while it normally takes a few minutes to find you after activating it.

the increasing prevalence of "next stop" displays, of course

Problem at present is most services don't have them and even when a bus route usually has them, older buses which may fill in for the usual buses don't have them.

 

[Stompehh]

Problem at present is most services don't have them and even when a bus route usually has them, older buses which may fill in for the usual buses don't have them.

Depends where you are. In Bristol there is pretty much universal coverage across all routes, including old buses and independent operators.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Interestingly there used to be an orbital-ish bus route doing roughly what you say but it got withdrawn due to poor patronage. I think a tram would be better used, though.

Indeed there was, the 400 service Trans-Lancs Express covering the route of Bolton-Bury-Heywood-Rochdale-Oldham-Ashton-under-Lyne-Stockport, with a summer extension to Manchester Airport at one time.

There was also a 500 service that ran via Manchester Airport-Altrincham-Sale-Stretford-Urmston-Eccles-Bolton.

The Coachmasters also once ran a service from Wigan-Bolton-Heywood-Rochdale.

As you say, none of these three routes survived.

 

[Nym]

One wonders if they'll look into Bury - Bolton for part of this, linking up with the Wigan - Bolton NR Services?

Bolton (Bays at the south of Platform 4/5 or into the town centre), Bury (Reverse?), Oldham, etc etc?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How much finance be needed to finance such an orbital project and where is it proposed that this finance comes from? After the 2CC line under construction, the next priority in the minds of TfGM is the proposed Manchester Metrolink line to the Trafford Centre/Port Salford?

What time period is likely to be envisaged for the Orbital Project that is the thread matter?

 

[northwichcat]

After the 2CC line under construction, the next priority in the minds of TfGM is the proposed Manchester Metrolink line to the Trafford Centre/Port Salford?

Can't see that happening soon. It's been revealed transport bosses are at loggerheads with Man United over the proposed route of that line. Man United want a stop right outside their stadium, transport bosses are saying it would be stupid to route the line that close to the stadium.

 

[telstarbox]

It'll be resolved.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Can't see that happening soon. It's been revealed transport bosses are at loggerheads with Man United over the proposed route of that line. Man United want a stop right outside their stadium, transport bosses are saying it would be stupid to route the line that close to the stadium.

Well, I suppose a dedicated railway station and at least three tram stops within 10-15 minutes walk just isn't enough... :roll: Next they'll be wanting trains from London and Penzance to Old Trafford seeing as that's where most of their fanbase resides!

 

[WatcherZero]

As Telstar says it will be resolved, its only a minor representation to the planning enquiry and their only objecting to the temporary road layout during construction and afterwards (complaining their fans will have trouble crossing roads). They support the construction of the line.

 

[transmanche]

Man United want a stop right outside their stadium, transport bosses are saying it would be stupid to route the line that close to the stadium.

Well I agree with the transport bosses.

From what I've seen in London, TfL will often close (or restrict entry) to the station closest to a stadium or other large event to avoid the possibility of large crowds reaching dangerous levels. The theory being that a 10-15 minute walk to the station spreads the crowd out a bit (people walk at different speeds) which helps in managing the crowd overall.

Examples are closing Holloway Road when Arsenal play at home (people generally walk to Highbury & Islington or Finsbury Park), encouraging people to walk to West Ham during the Olympics (rather than using Stratford) and closing Westminster for the NYE fireworks.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How well-designed do forum members think that the existing Metrolink stop at Etihad Campus is, with its wide staircases and specially laid-out walkway routes, considering its location as serving that of Manchester City football club?

 

[Puffing Devil]

How well-designed do forum members think that the existing Metrolink stop at Etihad Campus is, with its wide staircases and specially laid-out walkway routes, considering its location as serving that of Manchester City football club?

I think it works well, though I only used it once to travel from the ground. That experience of crush loading with my small son was enough to encourage me to walk to Piccadilly.

Sometimes we get the tram out from the centre of town for the match and that works well - the crowds are better spaced and there is no crush. Normally we'll make the walk to/from Piccadilly.

 

[ian1944]

Any orbital, or part whereof, tram should at least keep to time. I understood that the 400 bus's demise was more due to delays losing disillusioned passengers than to the concept itself being unwanted. I took it only once, on the full Stockport-Bolton route, and I recall congestion at Reddish putting the bus well behing schedule.

 

[edwin_m]

A lot of work went into designing the Metrolink stops at Etihad and also Old Trafford to handle the crowds, which are worst at the end of matches/events when everyone wants to leave at the same time. I understand similar work is being done to handle the crowds who may use the Trafford line.

 

[northwichcat]

A lot of work went into designing the Metrolink stops at Etihad and also Old Trafford to handle the crowds, which are worst at the end of matches/events when everyone wants to leave at the same time. I understand similar work is being done to handle the crowds who may use the Trafford line.

Metrolink had an advantage at Old Trafford in that the old BR platforms they inherited were long enough to take 8 x 20m car trains, so with Metrolink using nothing longer than a doubled up tram around 50m in length so that left a lot of spare space for them to implement crowd control facilities.

 

[Bevan Price]

I regret to think that an orbital Metro might be too expensive to construct, although it would be a good idea. Some of the inter-town bus services can be very busy, so there is obvious potential for attracting passengers onto hopefully faster Metro services. However, most of the trafiic is probably between neighbouring towns. For example, on the busy 471 bus between Bolton, Bury & Rochdale, only a minority of passengers go across through Bury - the majority alight or board at Bury.

The 400 orbital bus, mentioned elsewhere, was busy in its early years, but I think it lost passengers due to persistent traffic delays, making journeys less attractive. A Metro line ought to avoid such problems - provided that the on-road sections were not blighted with hordes of traffic lights (a bit of a curse on the Eccles & Ashton routes)

 

[thealexweb]

I regret to think that an orbital Metro might be too expensive to construct, although it would be a good idea. Some of the inter-town bus services can be very busy, so there is obvious potential for attracting passengers onto hopefully faster Metro services. However, most of the trafiic is probably be betwwen neighbouring towns. For example, on the busy 471 bus between Bolton, Bury & Rochdale, only a minority of passengers go across through Bury - the majority alight or board at Bury.

The 400 orbital bus, mentioned elsewhere, was busy in its early years, but I think it lost passengers due to persistent traffic delays, making journeys less attractive. A Metro line ought to avoid such problems - provided that the on-road sections were not blighted with hordes of traffic lights (a bit of a curse on the Eccles & Ashton routes)

Metrolink coming to Bolton? That will be the day. Other large GM towns that don't have the Metrolink have a superior heavy rail network e.g. Wigan, Stockport, etc.TfGM seems immune to increasing resentment towards their inaction in Bolton. What have they given Bolton? A heavily delayed and overpriced bus station a fraction of the size of the existing bus station and a shuttle bus that is hardly used.

 

[NotATrainspott]

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.../metrolink-circular-line-call-greater-9506106

I can see the logic as the heavy rail and Metrolink lines in the east half of Greater Manchester are mostly radial - a Bury to Stockport arc would join up the large centres of Bury, Rochdale, Oldham, Ashton and Stockport. It would then not be much further to East Didsbury or the Airport...

Going out on a 'crayonista' limb here but could it take over the Denton line (thus providing interchanges with NR at Stockport and Stalybridge) or is that required for freight?

It would be more like the Overground than the Circle Line though!

The Denton line could be used for both, as the Metrolink system is ripe for tram-trains. Any Network Rail tracks would have 25kV AC electrification, standard signalling and platforms built to NR standards, so there would be absolutely no detriment to the rail network at all.

Orbital-wise I could also see the former Fallowfield Loop line reinstated as it is almost completely intact and and would provide a direct link from suburban South East Manchester to the Airport and the related developments there.

 

[edwin_m]

The Fallowfield Loop is too far in. The major orbital destinations in southern GM are Stockport, the Airport, the future HS2 station and perhaps onward to Altrincham and Warrington. This suggests tram-train on parts of the Stockport-Altrincham line.

 

[clagmonster]

Well I agree with the transport bosses.

From what I've seen in London, TfL will often close (or restrict entry) to the station closest to a stadium or other large event to avoid the possibility of large crowds reaching dangerous levels. The theory being that a 10-15 minute walk to the station spreads the crowd out a bit (people walk at different speeds) which helps in managing the crowd overall.

Examples are closing Holloway Road when Arsenal play at home (people generally walk to Highbury & Islington or Finsbury Park), encouraging people to walk to West Ham during the Olympics (rather than using Stratford) and closing Westminster for the NYE fireworks.

In the case of Holloway Road, it is largely down to the fact that access is only by lift or spiral staircase, so a three figure number of passengers would likely overwhelm the station, let alone matchday traffic. Nearby Gillespie Road, with its ramped access, remains open throughout, though from the away end I've always walked to Highbury or Finsbury Park. The queues at Gillespie Road don't look worth bothering with.