Manchester Mayfield

[lancastrian]

I doubt it as I was under the impression that Piccadilly needs more through platforms not more terminating platforms.

You are quite right, I was travelling through Piccadilly yesterday on my way back from railfest at York. It was very clear that the number of trains using platforms 13/14 are very high. When the Ordsall Curve is built and opened, it will be even greater. I was on a train that reversed at Piccadilly before going on to Manchester Airport. These trains will use the through platforms when Ordsall Curve is open.

As I have heard before another two through platforms 15/16 have been discussed and they are certainly needed. There is certainly space to build a new viaduct to carry the track & island platform. Plus if all the lines are bi-directional, but mainly used 13/14 for trains heading east/south, and 15/16 for trains heading north/west. This will enable cross platform conections and with a decent set of bridges, at least two between both through platforms, without the need to show tickets between the then four through platforms, then the capacity will be greatly increased.

 

[John55]

You are quite right, I was travelling through Piccadilly yesterday on my way back from railfest at York. It was very clear that the number of trains using platforms 13/14 are very high. When the Ordsall Curve is built and opened, it will be even greater. I was on a train that reversed at Piccadilly before going on to Manchester Airport. These trains will use the through platforms when Ordsall Curve is open.

As I have heard before another two through platforms 15/16 have been discussed and they are certainly needed. There is certainly space to build a new viaduct to carry the track & island platform. Plus if all the lines are bi-directional, but mainly used 13/14 for trains heading east/south, and 15/16 for trains heading north/west. This will enable cross platform conections and with a decent set of bridges, at least two between both through platforms, without the need to show tickets between the then four through platforms, then the capacity will be greatly increased.

There are 8 trains per hour in each direction through platforms 13 & 14 M-F off peak. With 2 extra in peak hour. As a regular user of London Bridge this does not seem a very high number of trains!

When the additional platforms are built I expect the centre platforms will normally be used for reversing trains not through trains.

Even after the Ordsall Chord is built the limitation on services on the through platforms will remain the junctions at either end. In future the close proximity of Castlefield, Ordsall (New for chord), Ordsall (existing) and Windsor Bridge N & S Junctions will be the limiting factor not the platforms.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In some of the publicity provided at exhibitions on the Northern Hub, it states that these proposals will allow the access of rail services to the Trafford Park rail-served containerbase to effectively be doubled, but I wonder if these figures are based upon other flows than what already use the through platforms 13 and 14 and take into account the new through platforms 15 and 16 that appear in their associated documentation.

I asked them for clarification as to the statement made in their literature, but all I have received to date is that the matter is under consideration.

 

[WatcherZero]

Essentially the freight trains have to pass through the platforms to get to the Park, you add more paths through the station and theres more paths available for freight.

 

[snail]

When the additional platforms are built I expect the centre platforms will normally be used for reversing trains not through trains.

Even after the Ordsall Chord is built the limitation on services on the through platforms will remain the junctions at either end. In future the close proximity of Castlefield, Ordsall (New for chord), Ordsall (existing) and Windsor Bridge N & S Junctions will be the limiting factor not the platforms.

The additional platforms are needed to allow more trains between Oxford Rd and Piccadilly. Trains are slowed down having to wait for services to leave P13/14, with two each way a train can approach while the previous one is at the other platform. That's the way Oxford Road currently operates.

Nothing will reverse at Piccadilly, the Airport will continue to be used. A fourth platform is being built at Manchester Airport for the extra services.

 

[stockport1]

damned shame the fallowfield loop got vandalised. could have been so useful with a bit of investment

 

[John55]

The additional platforms are needed to allow more trains between Oxford Rd and Piccadilly. Trains are slowed down having to wait for services to leave P13/14, with two each way a train can approach while the previous one is at the other platform. That's the way Oxford Road currently operates.

Nothing will reverse at Piccadilly, the Airport will continue to be used. A fourth platform is being built at Manchester Airport for the extra services.

It doesn't seem to be the way things work at the moment. I see lots of trains at the west end of P14 loading/unloading with a second train in the east end either causing chaos by opening its doors or waiting its turn at the west end. At Oxford Rd I have never left west bound for any platform other than 2 (except for the footy) and hardly ever east bound from anything other than 4.

However the limiting factor will remain the junctions at the west end of Manchester unless some grade segregation is worked into the schemes..

I do agree that alternate trains on each side of an island is a good way of managing the throughput but I am not sure it will be routinely needed. I was hoping there would be an extension of the Liverpool/Warrington stoppers to Piccadilly to avoid the charge across the platforms at Oxford Road which seems to happen every half hour these days.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Essentially the freight trains have to pass through the platforms to get to the Park, you add more paths through the station and theres more paths available for freight.

Yes I understand what you say about Manchester Piccadilly through platforms, but it is the two line only viaduct section from Oxford Road to Deansgate that really concerned me with the freight traffic to the Trafford Park containerbase, as I had assumed that all extra new pathways so created would be for the betterment of the passenger trains alone, from what one source informed me.

 

[WatcherZero]

It creates more capacity than is needed for planned passenger services in the short-medium term. It also means the freight can pass passenger trains in the platforms a lot easier.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It creates more capacity than is needed for planned passenger services in the short-medium term. It also means the freight can pass passenger trains in the platforms a lot easier.

Thank you for your clarification. As ever, I am indebted to you for such a very quick reply.

 

[stockport1]

Any one have any ideas how long the proposed platforms 15/16 will be?
will they be bi directional?

 

[David10]

Any one have any ideas how long the proposed platforms 15/16 will be?
will they be bi directional?

Don't think 15/16 have been funded yet but would imagine these would become the westbound platforms with 13/14 for eastbound trains. Would think they will need to be 8 carriages long to accomodate 2 four car Desiros.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

I would say that it would be prudent to keep the Mayfield site for future rail improvements.
Looking at the state of the building in the photos, and the line of the station (there are some substantial modern buildings lying directly behind Mayfield stn) and to put things into the 21st century, could be best to demolish the station, and the pub, and use the land to increase through lines and platforms for Piccadilly Station.
I am not sure on how HS2 will impact on Piccadilly Station.

 

[PR1Berske]

If the Manchester Mayfield dream is over (or just close to death), where would any additional platforms be built?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

I would say that it would be prudent to keep the Mayfield site for future rail improvements.

Mayfield belongs to a developer (not BRB or NR),

...

Any one have any ideas how long the proposed platforms 15/16 will be? will they be bi directional?

If the Manchester Mayfield dream is over (or just close to death), where would any additional platforms be built?

11-car Pendolino length, probably (but not every line) and largely over Fairfield Street.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Having spent too much time hanging around on Piccadilly P13/14 and Oxford Road, I have never understood why the South Junction line has such low throughput.
It has been redeveloped/resignalled twice in living memory, with fancy two-way working and half-length platform signals, but you still get trains stopped between stations or crawling between signals even at the relatively low 8tph frequency. Even Merseyrail manages 14tph in the difficult section under the Mersey.
Why are the long platforms at Piccadilly not used to deal with 2 short trains simultaneously, or trains routed into alternate platforms at Oxford Road?
The junction at Deansgate always has a crippling temporary speed restriction.
On top of that the passenger facilities are 3rd world at both stations, with Oxford Road being particularly deficient (eg overcrowded, narrow stairs and bridge, no lifts, no shelter on P1 etc).
Just looking for answers really. Will the new plans really change anything?
It will get even more complicated at the western end with the Ordsall Curve.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Having spent too much time hanging around on Piccadilly P13/14 and Oxford Road, I have never understood why the South Junction line has such low throughput.
It has been redeveloped/resignalled twice in living memory, with fancy two-way working and half-length platform signals, but you still get trains stopped between stations or crawling between signals even at the relatively low 8tph frequency. Even Merseyrail manages 14tph in the difficult section under the Mersey.
Why are the long platforms at Piccadilly not used to deal with 2 short trains simultaneously, or trains routed into alternate platforms at Oxford Road?
The junction at Deansgate always has a crippling temporary speed restriction.
On top of that the passenger facilities are 3rd world at both stations, with Oxford Road being particularly deficient (eg overcrowded, narrow stairs and bridge, no lifts, no shelter on P1 etc).
Just looking for answers really. Will the new plans really change anything?
It will get even more complicated at the western end with the Ordsall Curve.

So many questions - pardon me if I miss one!

Merseyrail rejoices in having a virtually closed syste, only two types of rolling stock and pretty much a single stopping pattern (e.g. all stations). The Castlefield corridor (Manchester Picc East Junction to Castlefield) has to contend with 700m long freights, class 350s, 323s, 142s, 185s all on different calling patterns - remember that Picc to Deansgate is barely a mile.

Piccadilly 13 and 14 have a crowding problem, so customers are "encouraged" (by signage, stairways, etc.) to wait at the trailing ends (assuming they've ignored the joys of the satellite lounge). If the second train stops at the leading end of the platform, a charge down the platform ensues which can add 3 or four minutes to the station dwell - drivers know this and will "hover" for as long as possible to avoid stopping "early".

If by the "junction at Deansgate" you mean Castlefield junction, the speed onto the CLC is permanent now, but would only be 5mph higher if it were relaid in new NR60, as it is constrained by the viaduct it sits on.

Northern Hub will address some of these issues, but the roofs at both Picc and Oxford Road are listed, which makes big changes long-winded. Oxford Road may well get a second footbridge and Picc will probably get a new southern entrance onto Fairfield St.

The complexities of the interactions between Castlefield, Ordsall Chord South, Ordsall Lane and Deal Street Junctions (not forgetting their ASBO cousins the Windsor Bridge Brothers and Victoria West) and the future electrification thereof would fill a book and will probably occupy quite a lot of space in the forthcoming Northern Hub engineering reports.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So many questions - pardon me if I miss one!
The complexities of the interactions between Castlefield, Ordsall Chord South, Ordsall Lane and Deal Street Junctions (not forgetting their ASBO cousins the Windsor Bridge Brothers and Victoria West) and the future electrification thereof would fill a book and will probably occupy quite a lot of space in the forthcoming Northern Hub engineering reports.

Thank 'ee sir for your inside knowledge. Didn't design this lot back in 1849 did you?
Even the saintly I K Brunel got a few things wrong - Cow Lane Bridge in Reading, for instance, only just sorted out!
I hope a clever solution to the rest of the Northern Hub can be engineered, but every time I look at the gaping void alongside Piccadilly P14 I just can't visualize another pair of platforms and new junctions to east and west.

 

[gnolife]

So many questions - pardon me if I miss one!

Merseyrail rejoices in having a virtually closed syste, only two types of rolling stock and pretty much a single stopping pattern (e.g. all stations). The Castlefield corridor (Manchester Picc East Junction to Castlefield) has to contend with 700m long freights, class 350s, 323s, 142s, 185s all on different calling patterns - remember that Picc to Deansgate is barely a mile.

.

When did 350s come to civilization?

 

[David10]

When did 350s come to civilization?

2014 on Scotland services.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Thank 'ee sir for your inside knowledge. Didn't design this lot back in 1849 did you?

Not very inside really, and I don't think this bit was mine, I shall have to consult my journals ...

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Yes the site may be owned by a developer. It is currently 'undeveloped' which does still give possibilities.
To expand Piccadilly to give more through platforms, the maximum expansion without expensive demolition, eg Macdonalds Hotel, would be widen the bridge over London Road, almost clipping the hotel, part of Mayfield Stn, Star & garter/ Mayfield Centre, and curve through the East end of Mayfield stn onto the old viaducts over Temperance Street.
Question is, how many through platforms will be needed in the long term future?