Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[marko31161]

Slight digression, but are Northern now training drivers on Class 350?

5Z20 1236 Crewe to Liverpool South Parkway

No,this is practical handling training on 319's tomorrow is their pass out day.
Incidentally this is the last week of using Crewe for practical handling purposes.
Any further trainees will be doing it over the chat moss.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

With electrification work now more or less "complete" on this route, does anyone know why there are no saturday services between Newton-Le-Willows and Manchester (Victoria or Piccadilly) from 31 October until at least the timetable change in December 2015 ? (The public TT does show an Arriva sevice to Manchester Piccadilly, but this does not appear in the on-line WTT ). Also no Northern sunday trains to Manchester from 13 September.
So, at great expense, we have a newly electrified line - but no weekend trains in the pre-Christmas period.

I'm not sure about this.
The ATW paper timetable shows a normal service at weekends east of Earlestown until December.
So does the Northern paper timetable (full NR timetable pdf not yet published).

I think it's too early for anything definite to have been decided about the Ordsall Chord work.
NR has not published a construction plan yet, and in any case it will need local planning approval as per the go-ahead letter.
Any work on Castlefield Viaduct will also affect trains from Oxford Road via Salford Crescent.
The only upcoming work on the Chat Moss route east of Newton le Willows might be the new connection to Port Salford, but that is a mysterious project, again without a public construction plan that I am aware of.

Once the Orsdall Chord works start, I doubt that a few Christmas extras will figure in the planning around what is bound to be a massively disruptive project.
The CLC route is going to be very busy for a year or two...

 

[thealexweb]

Yes but the quad tracking should not affect the Newton-Manchester section, I assume there is a turnback crossover at St Helen's Jct or Earlestown (using the west to south curve).

Is it anything to do with the start of work on the Ordsall chord? Since the authorisation of this was late maybe they are trying to make up time so as not to delay the other Northern Hub works.

You make a good point, my mistake. I do not know about any potential crossovers either however.

 

[nw-sparks]

The situation at the moment is that in the timetable database, there are no Sunday Liverpool to Manchester Airport via Chat Moss trains after Sunday 6 September, and there are no Saturday Liverpool to Manchester Victoria via Chat Moss trains after 24 October.

When I noticed this last year, I assumed it was for the Ordsall Chord works which, when these timetables were drafted in the second half of 2014, were expected to begin this year, for completion in 2016.

However, as has been pointed out, the published paper timetables all seem to show normal services, and Ordsall Chord has been delayed, so I would expect the paper timetables to be correct and the missing trains to appear in the database in due course.

We are well outside the 3 month window for these dates, so there is no reason for the timetablers to rush to update the database, as long as they do it by early July. I wonder if they'll be inserted as electric services? Probably not.

 

[DJH1971]

The situation at the moment is that in the timetable database, there are no Sunday Liverpool to Manchester Airport via Chat Moss trains after Sunday 6 September, and there are no Saturday Liverpool to Manchester Victoria via Chat Moss trains after 24 October.

When I noticed this last year, I assumed it was for the Ordsall Chord works which, when these timetables were drafted in the second half of 2014, were expected to begin this year, for completion in 2016.

However, as has been pointed out, the published paper timetables all seem to show normal services, and Ordsall Chord has been delayed, so I would expect the paper timetables to be correct and the missing trains to appear in the database in due course.

We are well outside the 3 month window for these dates, so there is no reason for the timetablers to rush to update the database, as long as they do it by early July. I wonder if they'll be inserted as electric services? Probably not.

Ok, we're a few months off yet, but as I forementioned, this is not going to prove popular where it comes to run up to Christmas plus they will have to but on far, far more replacement bus services due to festive shopping and also don't even mention the drunks.

I hope they bear all this in mind.

 

[Bevan Price]

I'm not sure about this.
The ATW paper timetable shows a normal service at weekends east of Earlestown until December.
So does the Northern paper timetable (full NR timetable pdf not yet published).

I think it's too early for anything definite to have been decided about the Ordsall Chord work.
NR has not published a construction plan yet, and in any case it will need local planning approval as per the go-ahead letter.
Any work on Castlefield Viaduct will also affect trains from Oxford Road via Salford Crescent.
The only upcoming work on the Chat Moss route east of Newton le Willows might be the new connection to Port Salford, but that is a mysterious project, again without a public construction plan that I am aware of.

Once the Orsdall Chord works start, I doubt that a few Christmas extras will figure in the planning around what is bound to be a massively disruptive project.
The CLC route is going to be very busy for a year or two...

All rather strange - the version of the public timetable published by Middleton Press (in which I first noticed the apparent lack of weekend trains in autumn) differs from the paper timetables issued by Northern, which I managed to obtain from Lime Street today (you have to ask for them - they never seem to be put on public display until after timetable changes.)

Has anybody seen a TPE timetable for Manchester Airport / Scottish services ? For the same dates, the Middleton Press timetable shows these not running south of Preston. Also, after scheduled completion of the Farnworth Tunnel work, weekend services via Bolton are shown as diverted from Manchester Airport/Piccadilly to start from /terminate at Manchester Victoria.

 

[D1009]

Interesting that goes via St Helens. The 18:10 Edinburgh to Liverpool used to go via Newton Le W.

Yes, my recollection of that time was that St Helens Junction was the stop, not St Helens Central.

 

[Whistler40145]

Quite right, I've seen a video of a Class 25 on the 18:10 Edinburgh to Liverpool departing St Helens Junction

 

[Class 170101]

I have been able to have a look at Rules of the Route for this area and it appears that there was to be a block every Saturday and Sunday between Deal Street Jn and Ordsall Lane Jn from thr end of October until December timetable change and that this was to appear in the permanent timetable. The Rules of the Route for this has now reverted back to the normal times for these lines but may have yet to be reflected in train times planned to run.

 

[Bevan Price]

I have been able to have a look at Rules of the Route for this area and it appears that there was to be a block every Saturday and Sunday between Deal Street Jn and Ordsall Lane Jn from thr end of October until December timetable change and that this was to appear in the permanent timetable. The Rules of the Route for this has now reverted back to the normal times for these lines but may have yet to be reflected in train times planned to run.

Could this "change" be one reason why the May 2015 electronic public timetable is not yet on line at the Network Rail site ?

 

[8A Rail]

Yes, my recollection of that time was that St Helens Junction was the stop, not St Helens Central.

Queens Curve had stated "Newton le Willows", so obviously had to go via St Helens Junction! But regardless in the first half of the 90's upto the time the "Edinburgh" service withdrawn, the morning train and return evening train went via St Helens Central (previously named Shaw St).

 

[PDG1949]

Queens Curve had stated "Newton le Willows", so obviously had to go via St Helens Junction! But regardless in the first half of the 90's upto the time the "Edinburgh" service withdrawn, the morning train and return evening train went via St Helens Central (previously named Shaw St).

The following may have been years earlier, but my dad used to work for the GPO and apparently there was a 'Night Scot' out of Lime Street that used to stop at St Helens Shaw Street around 0100 to pickup sorted mail for north of the border.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A la LIV to MIA electric service last March, do we know yet which of the LIV - WGN services will be operated by 319s starting this coming Mon 18th and subsequently on the new timetable?

I take it the Blackpool North services are automatically out as they can only get as far as Preston on OHL and will likely remain Diesel for some time yet?

 

[Statto]

The following may have been years earlier, but my dad used to work for the GPO and apparently there was a 'Night Scot' out of Lime Street that used to stop at St Helens Shaw Street around 0100 to pickup sorted mail for north of the border.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A la LIV to MIA electric service last March, do we know yet which of the LIV - WGN services will be operated by 319s starting this coming Mon 18th and subsequently on the new timetable?

I take it the Blackpool North services are automatically out as they can only get as far as Preston on OHL and will likely remain Diesel for some time yet?

I've read that LIV-BPN services may be split at Preston, until Preston-Blackpool electrification is completed.

 

[Loop & Link]

319's on Lime St-Wigan and Man Vic's from Monday. And should be out on Sunday too on Lime St-Airports.

 

[WatcherZero]

The 6pm Lime Street to Blackpool will terminate in Preston apparently.

 

[1D53]

The 6pm Lime Street to Blackpool will terminate in Preston apparently.

Yes, it will be a 319. Will be the only 319 beyond Wigan for now.

 

[Jonny]

Yes, it will be a 319. Will be the only 319 beyond Wigan for now.

Is this the plan to 'split' the Blackpool/Liverpool services at Preston?

 

[QueensCurve]

I take it the Blackpool North services are automatically out as they can only get as far as Preston on OHL and will likely remain Diesel for some time yet?

I think there was a suggestion that the Liverpool to Blackpool services would be temporarily curtailed at Preston?

 

[nw-sparks]

I think there was a suggestion that the Liverpool to Blackpool services would be temporarily curtailed at Preston?

Yes, but not from the start of the new timetable. Next week, apart from the above-mentioned 18:00 off Lime Street, all Blackpools continue unchanged.

It has been suggested that more Blackpool services will be cut back to Preston from September. This is currently not in my timetable database, but as I said yesterday, this is not significant as it is well over three months away.

 

[ianhr]

Yes, it will be a 319. Will be the only 319 beyond Wigan for now.

Presumably there must be a balancing Preston-Wigan or Preston-Liverpool working at some time during the 24hr cycle, at least ecs if not in passenger traffic!

 

[Loop & Link]

Balancing ECS Preston-Wigan the next day.

 

[Peter Lanky]

Try as I may, I cannot find any information relating to the electrification of Liverpool to Wigan, and the intended use of this facility.

Is the work completed yet, and what are the proposals for making use of this electrification? Routes to Scotland seem the obvious choice, but comments on here suggest that is not likely to happen. On the grounds that Preston to Blackpool won't be electrified for some time, the the only journey that could benefit is the WNW to Lime St slow train.

Is this going to be converted to electric operation, or will the new work be 'wasted' until somebody comes up with a plan? I am not a regular reader of this forum, so apologies if asking something that has been covered elsewhere.

 

[LDECRexile]

Try as I may, I cannot find any information relating to the electrification of Liverpool to Wigan, and the intended use of this facility.

Is the work completed yet, and what are the proposals for making use of this electrification? Routes to Scotland seem the obvious choice, but comments on here suggest that is not likely to happen. On the grounds that Preston to Blackpool won't be electrified for some time, the the only journey that could benefit is the WNW to Lime St slow train.

Is this going to be converted to electric operation, or will the new work be 'wasted' until somebody comes up with a plan? I am not a regular reader of this forum, so apologies if asking something that has been covered elsewhere.

Please see post #4874 on Page 325, above.

There is also reasonable coverage here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811

Paul and I have planned a mega day out shooting it on Monday, we hope others will do so too, and send their efforts for publication.

Could you join the fun?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Try as I may, I cannot find any information relating to the electrification of Liverpool to Wigan, and the intended use of this facility.
Is the work completed yet, and what are the proposals for making use of this electrification? Routes to Scotland seem the obvious choice, but comments on here suggest that is not likely to happen. On the grounds that Preston to Blackpool won't be electrified for some time, the the only journey that could benefit is the WNW to Lime St slow train.
Is this going to be converted to electric operation, or will the new work be 'wasted' until somebody comes up with a plan? I am not a regular reader of this forum, so apologies if asking something that has been covered elsewhere.

The work is finished and the first electric train ran a couple of weeks ago.
It is expected that the 2tph Liverpool-Wigan stopping service will go fully electric next week in the new timetable (in DMU times).
One evening peak service which runs through to Preston will also go electric.
(There is also an evening peak service which goes Wigan-Newton le Willows-Liverpool, not sure about that one).
Liverpool-Blackpool will say DMU for now, but there is a possibility it will be split at Preston later in the year to free up more DMUs for cascade.
Sundays are a bit awkward as there is only a 1tph through Liverpool-Blackpool service on the line, so that will remain DMU.
There aren't any Liverpool-Scotland services and won't be until the winner of the TPE franchise comes up with a proposal to run them (if it does).
There is also no freight on the branch which can use the wires.

 

[nw-sparks]

The situation at the moment is that in the timetable database, there are no Sunday Liverpool to Manchester Airport via Chat Moss trains after Sunday 6 September, and there are no Saturday Liverpool to Manchester Victoria via Chat Moss trains after 24 October.
...

Just a quick update: Network Rail's electronic all line timetable was belatedly released today, and it shows the same lack of trains.

However, the closures have been removed from the latest edition of the "Rules of the Route", so my money is still on the train service running all the way through.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just a quick update: Network Rail's electronic all line timetable was belatedly released today, and it shows the same lack of trains.
However, the closures have been removed from the latest edition of the "Rules of the Route", so my money is still on the train service running all the way through.

There are no ATW trains shown in Table 90 (Sat from 31 Oct), but they are shown in Table 81, running as normal.

 

[AM9]

Just a quick update: Network Rail's electronic all line timetable was belatedly released today, and it shows the same lack of trains.

Despite the file description being wrong:

"Valid 15 December 2014 - 16 May 2015"

Did somebody get a kick to put it online now or are they rushing to get away for the weekend?

 

[nw-sparks]

I have noted the following on the first day of the new timetable:

319361 2A08 11:15 Liverpool Lime Street High Level to Manchester International Airport
319386 5Z97 12:05 Liverpool Lime Street High Level to Preston Carriage Sidings
319363 2A10 12:15 Liverpool Lime Street High Level to Manchester International Airport
319380 2F09 11:59 Manchester Piccadilly to Liverpool Lime Street High Level


Phil

 

[Whistler40145]

That's progress, 4 units out and about today (3 on Passenger turns).

Is 5Z97 to provide the Preston training unit?

 

[nw-sparks]

Is 5Z97 to provide the Preston training unit?

I'm guessing it's to provide the early Wigan starter tomorrow? There was also 5Z98 to Manchester Victoria siding earlier this morning.