Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[Class 170101]

Yes, typing error! Sorry but I'm sure you do the odd now one and then?

You had me looking for a LM Class 350 service between Crewe and Liverpool running via Warrington Bank Quay :P

I thought there must be some workings I had missed. LM must surely find this route useful should Runcorn be blocked - but I bet they won't learn the road.
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To me the best idea would still be for the 350s to transfer to London Midland when growth on that franchise requires it, as they are practically identical to the units already in use there. Northern would have the 120 new vehicles (DMUs or bi-modes) plus whatever else the successful bidder comes up with. Transpennine needs a new fleet which could be specified to be in 3-car or 4-car format for different routes according to demand and available platform length. If Transpennine doesn't get a new fleet then I'm in danger of joining the chorus of complaints about southern cast-offs...

Agree totally 350/4s to LM. I reckon either Hitachi trains or mini Pendolinos for Manchester to Scotland.

 

[railhead56]

I agree re 350/4 to LM but how about retractioned 317s for Manchester to Scotland. So much more affordable.
I'll get my coat....

 

[thealexweb]

You had me looking for a LM Class 350 service between Crewe and Liverpool running via Warrington Bank Quay :P

I thought there must be some workings I had missed. LM must surely find this route useful should Runcorn be blocked - but I bet they won't learn the road.
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Agree totally 350/4s to LM. I reckon either Hitachi trains or mini Pendolinos for Manchester to Scotland.

Why mini Pendos? Transpennine is struggling right now with six and eight car formations. In five years full size Pendos could easily be needed.

 

[Class 170101]

Why mini Pendos? Transpennine is struggling right now with six and eight car formations. In five years full size Pendos could easily be needed.

Depends if they can fit at Manchester Airport, Glasgow Central and Edinburgh. The latter two have only a few long platforms usually fully occupied by other services and does Manchester Airport have anything beyond 8 carriages?

 

[thealexweb]

Depends if they can fit at Manchester Airport, Glasgow Central and Edinburgh. The latter two have only a few long platforms usually fully occupied by other services and does Manchester Airport have anything beyond 8 carriages?

By mini Pendo I presumed you meant the six car version we saw mentioned in the failed 2012 WCML bids. As these can only obviously not be doubled up they need to be as long as possible to begin with. Therefore eight car 390s would seem to be the compromise.

Also Edinburgh Waverley's motorail platforms and two bay platforms at the other end of the station are being merged to form two new long through platforms.

 

[Bevan Price]

It's a good idea and many on Merseyside want this service resurrected.

If Manchester can have a direct service to Sccotland, why can't Liverpool?

Yes - but as I wrote - there are no spare trains curently available for such a service. Unless you think a Class 319 would be suitable ?

 

[childwallblues]

It's a good idea and many on Merseyside want this service resurrected.

If Manchester can have a direct service to Sccotland, why can't Liverpool?

Manchester Airport attracts a lot of business from North West England and so the MIA-EDB/GLC/WDM/BIF services cater for this requirement.
I do not think that you will see Liverpool to Scotland services until Pennine electrification is completed and TPE EMU stock is working into Liverpool.

 

[edwin_m]

I agree re 350/4 to LM but how about retractioned 317s for Manchester to Scotland. So much more affordable.
I'll get my coat....

You'll need the coat to cope with the draughts unless they're also fitted with aircon.

I think the 317, 319 and similar are OK for the short journeys most people use them for, such as Northern Liverpool-Manchester where most people are only making part of the journey because other operators provide faster through trains.

However they aren't the right train for longer interurban journeys. These have a significant business clientele so they really need a good number of seats with tables and power sockets, and aircon so conversation is possible without the noise from open windows. Also with only one motored coach out of four they may struggle with the gradients on Transpennine routes including Shap and Beattock on the way to Scotland, particularly in the frequent event of poor rail conditions.

 

[QueensCurve]

Actually it was later than you think - mid 1990's (1994) and by then in the hands of I/C Class 47's although occasional Class 31 or 37 hauled the Liverpool - Preston or vice versa legs. See: https://www.flickr.com/photos/8a-collection/14075112690/

The following year for a temporary period, the service went over to Class 158's then stopped altogether.

Interesting that goes via St Helens. The 18:10 Edinburgh to Liverpool used to go via Newton Le W.
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Indeed, it would be much easier to do this than it is to split and join the sleeper, which happens six nights a week.

But Carlisle is a very simple join. Trains arrive, hook up, and on they go. Carstairs on the other hand involves the Edinburgh portion arriving in front of the Glasgow portion and then reversing back out. It all takes up more time purely to serve a lightly used station. Is it worthwhile? Perhaps it's cheaper than running two trains in close proximity up and down the WCML (perhaps one of the two could stop at Lockerbie), but it would lead to a perception of slowing down the service which could make rail less competitive, particularly from Edinburgh.

(And yes I'm perfectly aware that the Carstairs split/join was the norm in days gone by, but that's no longer the case so it could also be seen as a retrograde step).

I am not sure, given the use of multiple units, why joining at Carlisle is easier than at Carstairs. There may be a journey time issue and Carstairs may not be seen as a significant market for passengers.

 

[edwin_m]

I am not sure, given the use of multiple units, why joining at Carlisle is easier than at Carstairs. There may be a journey time issue and Carstairs may not be seen as a significant market for passengers.

Good point. I think the faffing around at Carstairs is to avoid ending up with a loco trapped in the middle of the train. If the necessary subsidiary routes are provided (which are probably needed for LHCS as well), then MUs ought to be able to arrive from opposite directions, not simultaneously but a few minutes apart, and just couple together.

 

[SpringsBranch]

Actually it was later than you think - mid 1990's (1994) and by then in the hands of I/C Class 47's although occasional Class 31 or 37 hauled the Liverpool - Preston or vice versa legs. See: https://www.flickr.com/photos/8a-collection/14075112690/

The following year for a temporary period, the service went over to Class 158's then stopped altogether.

An on very rare occasions, a short formed HST with (if I remember rightly) just 3 carriages!

 

[railhead56]

You'll need the coat to cope with the draughts unless they're also fitted with aircon.

I think the 317, 319 and similar are OK for the short journeys most people use them for, such as Northern Liverpool-Manchester where most people are only making part of the journey because other operators provide faster through trains.

However they aren't the right train for longer interurban journeys. These have a significant business clientele so they really need a good number of seats with tables and power sockets, and aircon so conversation is possible without the noise from open windows. Also with only one motored coach out of four they may struggle with the gradients on Transpennine routes including Shap and Beattock on the way to Scotland, particularly in the frequent event of poor rail conditions.

Most of that can be sorted by Angel if they refurb. I take your point about Shap but havent the similar (retractioned) 325s worked from Warrington to Glasgow doing the mail? New build is clearly better but someone has to sign the cheque.

 

[AM9]

Most of that can be sorted by Angel if they refurb. I take your point about Shap but havent the similar (retractioned) 325s worked from Warrington to Glasgow doing the mail? New build is clearly better but someone has to sign the cheque.

When were the 325s retractioned? Wikipedia makes no mention of that saying that they were/are fitted with the same kit as the 319s.
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New build is clearly better but someone has to sign the cheque.

Exactly. A refurb./medium upgrade such as replacement seating, improved luggage stowage and at least a pressure ventilation system will allow the residual value of the stock to be realised on mainline services. The probelm with a/c is that the hotel demands may involve major replacement of the transformer and other electrical systems.
Fitting low-power 230v ac outlets and wi-fi to make them suitable for that sort of service for the rest of their operational life is trivial.

 

[railhead56]

AM9 is right to correct my error on 325 retractioning. Sorry. I agree with his other comments too.

 

[edwin_m]

Most of that can be sorted by Angel if they refurb. I take your point about Shap but havent the similar (retractioned) 325s worked from Warrington to Glasgow doing the mail? New build is clearly better but someone has to sign the cheque.

Yes a high standard refurb including aircon might make these acceptable for TPE journeys, at least the shorter ones such as Blackpool (which I think ends up with Northern anyway).

325s mainly run overnight and mail isn't as critical as passengers, so delays due to poor adhesion are slightly less of a problem.

 

[AM9]

Yes a high standard refurb including aircon might make these acceptable for TPE journeys, at least the shorter ones such as Blackpool (which I think ends up with Northern anyway).

325s mainly run overnight and mail isn't as critical as passengers, so delays due to poor adhesion are slightly less of a problem.

But they have an equal propensity to delay following trains when they themselves are delayed by poor adhesion.

 

[edwin_m]

But they have an equal propensity to delay following trains when they themselves are delayed by poor adhesion.

Not if they are running overnight!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not if they are running overnight!

Of today's mail trains on the WCML, only one is overnight.
The other 7 movements I can see on RTT are during the day, on fast schedules interworked with passenger trains.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...15/05/06/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
They seem to use the slow line south of Hanslope.

 

[LDECRexile]

I have:

1. added two shots of 319s at Liverpool South Parkway as series 4054
2. Added series 3980 Hunts Cross
3. extended and edited series 3978 Allerton Depot, with first draft descriptions.

All in the Combined Volume here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/sets/72157648494725811/

 

[Bevan Price]

An on very rare occasions, a short formed HST with (if I remember rightly) just 3 carriages!

Plus a year or so when they used Voyagers on the Edinburgh / Liverpool / Portsmouth diagrams.
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With electrification work now more or less "complete" on this route, does anyone know why there are no saturday services between Newton-Le-Willows and Manchester (Victoria or Piccadilly) from 31 October until at least the timetable change in December 2015 ? (The public TT does show an Arriva sevice to Manchester Piccadilly, but this does not appear in the on-line WTT ). Also no Northern sunday trains to Manchester from 13 September.

So, at great expense, we have a newly electrified line - but no weekend trains in the pre-Christmas period.

 

[Loop & Link]

There was a timing run between Lime St and Manchester Victoria stopping at all stations this evening - 5Z27/5Z28.

 

[caliburn53]

very nice to see 319's flashing through Earlestown with no indication when we will get a stopper if ever

 

[AM9]

very nice to see 319's flashing through Earlestown with no indication when we will get a stopper if ever

I doubt that Northern will want to run diesels under the wires any longer than necessary, especially when there is an ample supply of 319s available and they have more capacity as well as the potential for running a tighter timetable.

 

[Loop & Link]

very nice to see 319's flashing through Earlestown with no indication when we will get a stopper if ever

Can you wait another week? All good to go from the new TT change!

 

[DJH1971]

Plus a year or so when they used Voyagers on the Edinburgh / Liverpool / Portsmouth diagrams.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
With electrification work now more or less "complete" on this route, does anyone know why there are no saturday services between Newton-Le-Willows and Manchester (Victoria or Piccadilly) from 31 October until at least the timetable change in December 2015 ? (The public TT does show an Arriva sevice to Manchester Piccadilly, but this does not appear in the on-line WTT ). Also no Northern sunday trains to Manchester from 13 September.

So, at great expense, we have a newly electrified line - but no weekend trains in the pre-Christmas period.

Where did you hear this?

If this is true, I hope the police will be braced for an increase on drink driving during the run up to Christmas.

 

[thealexweb]

Where did you hear this?

If this is true, I hope the police will be braced for an increase on drink driving during the run up to Christmas.

Maybe related to the ongoing quad tracking around Huyton? I did however think the deadline for that work was 2017, not the 2016 these blockades would make it.

 

[ianhr]

Maybe related to the ongoing quad tracking around Huyton? I did however think the deadline for that work was 2017, not the 2016 these blockades would make it.

Yes but the quad tracking should not affect the Newton-Manchester section, I assume there is a turnback crossover at St Helen's Jct or Earlestown (using the west to south curve).

Is it anything to do with the start of work on the Ordsall chord? Since the authorisation of this was late maybe they are trying to make up time so as not to delay the other Northern Hub works.

 

[snowball]

Maybe related to the ongoing quad tracking around Huyton? I did however think the deadline for that work was 2017, not the 2016 these blockades would make it.

There's been previous discussion in this thread about NR's conflicting statements on the timescale for that. 2017 was mentioned in the stuff about the Transport & Works Act Order, but the CP5 Enhancements Delivery Plan says it's supposed to be complete by Feb 2016, which would obviously fit with works being done at the tail end of this year.

Are there any remaining line speed improvements on the Chat Moss line due to be made in the next year or two?

 

[nw-sparks]

Maybe related to the ongoing quad tracking around Huyton? I did however think the deadline for that work was 2017, not the 2016 these blockades would make it.

Surely the closures are east of Newton and are for Ordsall Chord works?

Phil

 

[QueensCurve]

There was a timing run between Lime St and Manchester Victoria stopping at all stations this evening - 5Z27/5Z28.

Slight digression, but are Northern now training drivers on Class 350?

5Z20 1236 Crewe to Liverpool South Parkway