Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[dysonsphere]

Thats a lovely piece of work with the spreadsheet, are you going to have a colour for finished sections, ie complete apart from energising.

 

[DJH1971]

The Network rail Wiring train is currently parked on platform 4 at Victoria. Hoorah!

Its not doing anything but still

Still lovely news to hear, but NR needs to tell us what's going on.

 

[LDECRexile]

Thats a lovely piece of work with the spreadsheet, are you going to have a colour for finished sections, ie complete apart from energising.

D Black, or am I missing something?

 

[dysonsphere]

D Black, or am I missing something?

As I read it that was for existing wiring dating back many years.

 

[LDECRexile]

As I read it that was for existing wiring dating back many years.

I've had another look at Table 2 (below Table 1) which serves as a Key to the colours on Table 1. To be honest I'm struggling to understand where you're coming from. Having built it, perhaps I can't see it from strangers' eyes.

A (Purple) is lines which have been electrified for ages, eg Lime St-Edge Hill
B (Red) is stretches where old and new overlap, eg by Tuebrook Sidings
C (Yellow) is where there's a blitz taking place on piling & masts, ie Roby/Huyton
and
D (Black) is where a full set of wires have been put up recently (ie 2014), eg Wavertree Technology Park through Broad Green.

and so on....

 

[DJH1971]

I've had another look at Table 2 (below Table 1) which serves as a Key to the colours on Table 1. To be honest I'm struggling to understand where you're coming from. Having built it, perhaps I can't see it from strangers' eyes.

A (Purple) is lines which have been electrified for ages, eg Lime St-Edge Hill
B (Red) is stretches where old and new overlap, eg by Tuebrook Sidings
C (Yellow) is where there's a blitz taking place on piling & masts, ie Roby/Huyton
and
D (Black) is where a full set of wires have been put up recently (ie 2014), eg Wavertree Technology Park through Broad Green.

and so on....

Keep it up!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The Network rail Wiring train is currently parked on platform 4 at Victoria. Hoorah!Its not doing anything but still

Good news.

Keep it up!

Agreed-again

 

[dysonsphere]

I've had another look at Table 2 (below Table 1) which serves as a Key to the colours on Table 1. To be honest I'm struggling to understand where you're coming from. Having built it, perhaps I can't see it from strangers' eyes.

A (Purple) is lines which have been electrified for ages, eg Lime St-Edge Hill
B (Red) is stretches where old and new overlap, eg by Tuebrook Sidings
C (Yellow) is where there's a blitz taking place on piling & masts, ie Roby/Huyton
and
D (Black) is where a full set of wires have been put up recently (ie 2014), eg Wavertree Technology Park through Broad Green.

and so on....

Sorry my bad misread the key. You are correct must read more carefully. I think I misunderstood the phrase "recent times"

 

[LDECRexile]

Sorry my bad misread the key. You are correct must read more carefully. I think I misunderstood the phrase "recent times"

I'm glad we're on the same wavelength now. All the best.

Dave

 

[Bevan Price]

Yeah but factor in the work that would be involved in adapting Preston for a DC line.

I think that Ormskirk - Preston electrification comes under the category "dreamware". Unless thay plant a massive new town in the Rufford / Croston area, there simply is not enough population to justify the high cost of electrification north of Burscough.

 

[HSTEd]

A big new town can be arranged.....

 

[deltic08]

The 3rd rail system has worked (almost) perfectly for over 100 years...why bother ripping it all up and installing ole? Besides, the underground loop and link tunnels don't have enough clearance for overhead wires.

Regardless of installation cost where 25kv is supposed to be cheaper than dc due to reduction in feeder stations, wastage of electricity in transmission between shoe and rail is 25% compared to 4% between pan and wire. This wastage alone, which is a considerable operating cost, justifies conversion of 3rd rail to 25kv.

 

[HSTEd]

Regardless of installation cost where 25kv is supposed to be cheaper than dc due to reduction in feeder stations, wastage of electricity in transmission between shoe and rail is 25% compared to 4% between pan and wire. This wastage alone, which is a considerable operating cost, justifies conversion of 3rd rail to 25kv.

These figures only really apply on the Southern Region.

And considering that the 25kV cost estimates are now essentially worthless (they have been blown as badly as the WCRM estimates were) this is likely not true for the Merseyside area.
Where electrical demand is a tiny tiny fraction of what it is in South London.

And reduction of feeder stations doesn't really help on such a compact network - or are you really suggesting that all the branches should be fed from one point so a single failure takes down the entire system?
Voltage drops will also be drastically lower as a result of the above.

 

[edwin_m]

It's true that DC is more cost-effective where stops are close together and in urban areas where the local grid is suitable to take large amounts of power every few miles. And I doubt OLE would fit in the Merseyrail tunnels without enlargement. This becomes less so when extensions are considered into more rural areas where stations and power supplies are further apart.

It is also true that a 25kV section should have at least two feeder stations so that loss of a single one doesn't knock out the network. However electrification to places like Wigan and Preston could share power with existing 25kV routes and might not need any new feeders at all. The CLC route could also take a feed from the WCML where they cross in Warrington.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

A big new town can be arranged.....

Have you ever looked a the official flooding charts that cover the Croston and Rufford areas? Burscough itself is often mentioned in flood situations in the area of railway station infrastructure.

Lessons surely have been learnt from areas of the South-East and South-West where flooding is a problem.

 

[deltic08]

These figures only really apply on the Southern Region.

And considering that the 25kV cost estimates are now essentially worthless (they have been blown as badly as the WCRM estimates were) this is likely not true for the Merseyside area.
Where electrical demand is a tiny tiny fraction of what it is in South London.

And reduction of feeder stations doesn't really help on such a compact network - or are you really suggesting that all the branches should be fed from one point so a single failure takes down the entire system?
Voltage drops will also be drastically lower as a result of the above.

No, I was agreeing that Preston-Ormskirk would be better electrified at 25kv instead of extending 3rd rail using dual fitted units if and when they are ordered. DfT does not look favourably on 3rd rail extensions nowadays.

 

[L+Y]

Not sure if this is "new news" but the Liverpool tracks through Salford Central appear to be fully wired this morning.

 

[DJH1971]

Not sure if this is "new news" but the Liverpool tracks through Salford Central appear to be fully wired this morning.

I do believe the wiring train was at Victoria yesterday.

 

[HSTEd]

Have you ever looked a the official flooding charts that cover the Croston and Rufford areas? Burscough itself is often mentioned in flood situations in the area of railway station infrastructure.

Lessons surely have been learnt from areas of the South-East and South-West where flooding is a problem.

Yes, and now we would probably provide proper flood defences.
Flood plains are not and should not be no-go areas for construction, if they were the amount of available land drops drastically as all that is left is upland areas, most of which are protected by a variety of legal roadblocks.

If the dutch can manage living 7m below sea level I am sure we can manage living on a floodplain without massive flooding.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's true that DC is more cost-effective where stops are close together and in urban areas where the local grid is suitable to take large amounts of power every few miles. And I doubt OLE would fit in the Merseyrail tunnels without enlargement. This becomes less so when extensions are considered into more rural areas where stations and power supplies are further apart.

As that DeltaRail study on Branch line electrification showed a while back 750vDC also has important benefits in rural areas.

A six car multiple unit (pair of 377/3s as an exemplar) draws something like 2500hp including hotel loads, roughly 1900kW.
If we assume voltage sag to 500V for the worst case of end-of-line and maximum power draw that gives us a peak current per train of 3.8kA and a voltage drop of 400V (if we use the full width of voltage range in the standard and supply at 900V).

As this is a branch line each track will likely ever only support one train at a time, so we will use one continuous conductor rail. In reality since trains will not be at the end of the line and the rails will be paralleled regularly this is a conservative estimate.

3.8kA over 400V allows for a conductance of ~100milli-ohms.

The resistance of a high conductivity aluminium-steel conductor rail (according to the RGS) is roughly 7milli-ohm per km.
That means our standard will still be met after a full 14km from the substation.

That implies that no more than one substation is likely to be required for Ormskirk-Southport - although I would position two on the system, one at Southport where it can feed into the rest of Merseyrail and on at Burscough to reduce voltage drops. It would also put the high draw locations where trains are accelerating from a stand closer to the substations.

Since maximum load on the line is likely to be on the order of 8kA peak at 900V that will give a substation power of 7.2MW - which is still in the range of suitable metro substations if two facilities are taken.
(Two of ~3-4MW).

Additionally these stations can be far more flexible in choice of location as they can draw power from existing 33kV circuits such as those provided in the vicinity of Southport and Burscough, 25kV would either require a full 138kV circuit be provided or a special cross coutnry single phase line powered by the WCML electrification system.

25kV is inherently a single phase standard and the system won't like several hundred kW drawn from one phase unexpectedly in a rural setting where the 33kV system will struggle to absorb it.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

As that DeltaRail study on Branch line electrification showed a while back 750vDC also has important benefits in rural areas.

A six car multiple unit (pair of 377/3s as an exemplar) draws something like 2500hp including hotel loads, roughly 1900kW.
If we assume voltage sag to 500V for the worst case of end-of-line and maximum power draw that gives us a peak current per train of 3.8kA and a voltage drop of 400V (if we use the full width of voltage range in the standard and supply at 900V).

As this is a branch line each track will likely ever only support one train at a time, so we will use one continuous conductor rail. In reality since trains will not be at the end of the line and the rails will be paralleled regularly this is a conservative estimate.

3.8kA over 400V allows for a conductance of ~100milli-ohms.

The resistance of a high conductivity aluminium-steel conductor rail (according to the RGS) is roughly 7milli-ohm per km.
That means our standard will still be met after a full 14km from the substation.

That implies that no more than one substation is likely to be required for Ormskirk-Southport - although I would position two on the system, one at Southport where it can feed into the rest of Merseyrail and on at Burscough to reduce voltage drops. It would also put the high draw locations where trains are accelerating from a stand closer to the substations.

Since maximum load on the line is likely to be on the order of 8kA peak at 900V that will give a substation power of 7.2MW - which is still in the range of suitable metro substations if two facilities are taken.
(Two of ~3-4MW).

Additionally these stations can be far more flexible in choice of location as they can draw power from existing 33kV circuits such as those provided in the vicinity of Southport and Burscough, 25kV would either require a full 138kV circuit be provided or a special cross coutnry single phase line powered by the WCML electrification system.

25kV is inherently a single phase standard and the system won't like several hundred kW drawn from one phase unexpectedly in a rural setting where the 33kV system will struggle to absorb it.

I really appreciate the detail thanks. Not an electrical engineer but did some basics when doing Material Science at Imperial College London. So in essence are you saying that if the DfT was not having a downer on 750 V DC 3rd rail, for Ormskirk,Southport, Wigan, Preston it is actually not a bad choice?

I am not sure where all the 25Kv AC feeders are in the Northwest though I do know there is a key one at Caterall/Garstang.

 

[Greybeard33]

Is another possible option for branch lines 750V DC OHLE, as on light rail systems? Less hazardous than third rail.

I understand the Sheffield tram-trains will be dual voltage 25kV/750V, to enable future use on AC electrified lines.

 

[edwin_m]

A six car multiple unit (pair of 377/3s as an exemplar) draws something like 2500hp including hotel loads, roughly 1900kW.
If we assume voltage sag to 500V for the worst case of end-of-line and maximum power draw that gives us a peak current per train of 3.8kA and a voltage drop of 400V (if we use the full width of voltage range in the standard and supply at 900V).

In that situation over half the power supplied from the feeder is wasted as heat in the rail, plus the train won't be able to regenerate. This is a worst case but averaging along the length of the route the power required is still probably 30% more than for an AC system. You also have to consider what happens if the one feeder station is out of use or loses its supply, which I think means the each one would need twice the rating you give. And have you allowed for the resistance of the return path through the running rails?

That implies that no more than one substation is likely to be required for Ormskirk-Southport - although I would position two on the system, one at Southport where it can feed into the rest of Merseyrail and on at Burscough to reduce voltage drops. It would also put the high draw locations where trains are accelerating from a stand closer to the substations.

...

Additionally these stations can be far more flexible in choice of location as they can draw power from existing 33kV circuits such as those provided in the vicinity of Southport and Burscough, 25kV would either require a full 138kV circuit be provided or a special cross coutnry single phase line powered by the WCML electrification system.

The Delta Rail report suffered from considering branch lines in (literal) isolation, whereas in reality they would almost always be connected to an electrified main line. That's not a criticism of the expert former colleagues of mine who wrote it, but of the remit they no doubt had from DfT.

There is some merit in using 750V if you consider Ormskirk to Southport in isolation, especially if this is operated by a fleet without dual voltage capability. However if the route is electrified at 25kV to Preston or Wigan it effectively becomes part of the larger WCML/NW electrified network and shares its power accordingly. I think we would all want that to happen and if Ormskirk-Southport is electrified it is highly likely that at least one connection to the WCML would be electrified either at the same time or within the lifetime of the new 750V equipment, especially if Merseyrail's replacement fleet has dual voltage capability. Hence there are circumstances where 25kV makes a lot of sense, even before signalling immunisation is considered.

If this network did need to be on a separate phase, then feeder stations can now be fitted with inverters, similar to a traction package, to provide single phase current with a balanced load on the three incoming phases. If one of these is provided then single train could be supplied from a 33kV grid at 25kV just as easily as at 750V - in fact more easily as the lower losses mean less power demand in total.

 

[Wavertreelad]

The subject of extensions to the Merseyrail network has cropped up several times on the Merseyrail Planning New Stations Thread and in particular the subject of the possible OHLE electrification of the 1970's built tunnels. The original tunnels under the Mersey were built for steam traction and have a much larger bore, the 1970's extensions can handle full size 20m stock, and even Class 66's ! Class 313's were tested through the tunnels so there is obviously no problem with pan down, but nobody has yet been able to confirm one way or another if similar sized stock could work the tunnels with their pans up. It might be better to respond to this issue on the other thread given the topic of this current one.

 

[DJH1971]

The subject of extensions to the Merseyrail network has cropped up several times on the Merseyrail Planning New Stations Thread and in particular the subject of the possible OHLE electrification of the 1970's built tunnels. The original tunnels under the Mersey were built for steam traction and have a much larger bore, the 1970's extensions can handle full size 20m stock, and even Class 66's ! Class 313's were tested through the tunnels so there is obviously no problem with pan down, but nobody has yet been able to confirm one way or another if similar sized stock could work the tunnels with their pans up. It might be better to respond to this issue on the other thread given the topic of this current one.

Then again, Class 313's have a very similar body to the 507/508's.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Then again, Class 313's have a very similar body to the 507/508's.

But they also have a well in the roof and I would also add there is very recent discussion on OHLE in the Merseyrail New Stock thread including some images.

 

[LDECRexile]

I toured Lime St-Wigan NW-Roby-Earlestown-Lime St today and found the following:

Headlines

1. Activity in the Earlestown Area
2. Activity between Roby Jct and Huyton Jct
3. More wires up East of Rainhill

Earlestown: More masts have gone up between Sankey Viaduct and Earlestown station.

I misinterpreted a report last week as saying two portals were up, only one is up.

An Orange Platoon was erecting a motorway-style crash barrier between the access track to the South of the tracks and a mast-to-be. Two others have also been erected.

I could see no visible change to the three “scrapes” on Platform 1.

A public electrification safety warning sign was erected by Platform 3 as I was there.

Roby Jct-Huyton Jct: Protruding piles visible last week North of the tracks between Roby Jct and Roby station have been driven home.

The more westerly buried mast under Platform 2/3 has been marked near the West end of the platform.

A safe walking route has been laid most of the way between Roby and Huyton Stations to the North of the tracks. An Orange Platoon was working on wiring runs near that route.

Work is taking place to the north side next to the difficult Archway Road bridge, temporary fencing was in place.

Several bases can be seen on the northern side of the tracks, a full house of bases was installed South of the tracks some time ago.

A new mast has been erected at each of the western ends of Platforms 1 and 4, they would appear to be candidates to have a portal plonked on top. Another new mast has been erected about 100 yards West of Platform 1.

While I was at Huyton a delegation of senior-looking Network Rail Orangemen was performing a tour of inspection of the station.

Several masts now stand North and South of the tracks at Huyton Junction. Several bases are also in place, with only one or two gaps, which might not be gaps if either no masts are needed or they are in place but invisible down embankment sides.

East of Rainhill: Full wires now extend from Rainhill Signalbox to East of Lea Green station.

Multiple wires now extend from East of St Helens Junction station to a point between Broad Lane Bridge, Collins green and Collins Green station site.

A single wire extends further East of Collins Green than I previously thought.

“The Planner” commented recently that we could expect a slowdown in activity on the Wigan Branch. My trip today supports that. The only change I could see was on the M6 bridge, where three sections of the northern parapet fence have been removed and replaced with temporary scaffolding fences. This suggests masts may be erected in some of all of those positions. I might have missed any such activity on the southern side, I was distracted

I continue to have exasperating problems with Picasa, despite 8A_Rail's generous help. I've added 20 photos here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/110155...rification20134?authkey=Gv1sRgCNmM9tLBtNTlgAE

I'm sure someone will let me know if they are inaccessible.

 

[507 001]

Posted this yesterday in the merseyrail new rolling stock thread. I think that the ones from moorfields pretty much prove that your not going to be able to fit a raised pan down there.

Judge for yourself, personally I very much doubt it....






You also have to ask, why would you want to?

*The system is pretty much self contained.
*There is no freight that would benefit.
*Line speeds are unlikely to be raised any higher.
*Expensive (especially when there are other lines that are not electrified at all).

The only benefit I can see is that 25Kv is more efficient, however when you consider the fairly short length of each line (Chester, Ellesmere Port and Southport Excluded) will it really make that much difference?

 

[LDECRexile]

Updated "Where we are up to" spreadsheet herewith.

 

[snowball]

I continue to have exasperating problems with Picasa, despite 8A_Rail's generous help. I've added 20 photos here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/110155...rification20134?authkey=Gv1sRgCNmM9tLBtNTlgAE

I'm sure someone will let me know if they are inaccessible.

Further evidence that Picasa no longer likes you? The above link doesn't work for me, nor do links from your previous posts that have worked before. (They may be textually identical to the above link, I haven't checked.)

 

[LDECRexile]

Further evidence that Picasa no longer likes you? The above link doesn't work for me, nor do links from your previous posts that have worked before. (They may be textually identical to the above link, I haven't checked.)

Thanks for letting me know.

Picasa has now crashed on me altogether.

Methinks starting again in Flickr might be a better prospect.

At least my source photos are safe.

Grrrr