Manchester Intercity Services...

[northwichcat]

There is a near-hourly service from Manchester to Scotland operated by TransPennine Express. Admittedly, these are not 'InterCity' services in their truest sense, but they still do the job, and TPE have doubled the patronage on their services since they took over the route from Virgin XC in 2007.

And as far as Manchester (and Liverpool) to the North East is concerned, well there are hourly services from Manchester to Newcastle, Middlesbrough and Scarborough, providing no less than three trains per hour between Manchester and York. A fourth train per hour runs Manchester to Hull. Of these, an hourly service runs to and from Liverpool.

The TPE Scottish service calls at more stations than the previous Virgin service. This is because the Virgin one was an extra service on top of the hourly pattern, while the TPE one is part of the hourly pattern in the place of a Windermere service and alternating with a Barrow service.

The Newcastle service is one that needs to be speeded up. The direct service takes around the same amount of time as to via Doncaster with one change.

The Hull service is probably the most intercity service opposed to just an express service.

 

[NightatLaira]

I agree that the TPE units are not suited to long distance travel, but I disagree with Squaddie's rose tinted view of the European rial system.

The simple fact is that not all European trains run on time, not all connections are cross platform, and it only takes a few journeys on SNCF or FS to realise that!

True, but sometime I do envy the European extremes: I once caught a direct TGV from Paris Montpernasse to some random tiny place off a branch in the Pyrenees. Journey took 5hrs, and our first stop was Bordeaux! The British equivalent would be London Paddington to Lelant Saltings direct with the first stop being Exeter St Davids! Of course - of no use to most people, but it was nice at the time.

 

[Greenback]

Was the TGV empty?! The French do run some strange services, once or twice week direct trains to Paris etc, but I always thought there must eb a good reason for them!

 

[Nym]

There was a short news item in MR a while back stating that the DfT was "interested" in adding Windermere to the electrification scheme.

Windermere would yeild a good BCR, but the problem would come for the fact that when it does run it will share the stock with the Barrow in Furness route, it isn't a problem, just an operational inconvenience, or convenience if you would like, as it could run attached to the Blackpool North services until Preston (as an 8 car unit), and the BIF services, you never know, they nudge hourly in the peaks anyway, it could have that as a 'standard hourly path' to Lancaster with some stopping short at Lancaster or carrying on to a diferent non electrified location.

So, if Windermere isn't electrified:

Services run in an hourly pattern off Airport to Lancaster, continuing to either Windermere or Barrow

If it is electrified:

MIA - Lancaster runs hourly, most extended to Barrow in Furness (an increase in Barrow services), some terminating short at Lancaster, that could be run by electric stock, if operationaly possible, if not operationally possible, then continue some of the non-barrow services to say, Morcombe?

MIA - Blackpool North has runs as double to Preston where a Windermere portion can disconnect and run up to Windermere, 2 hourly or maybe even hourly.

Would mean between Preston and Lancaster:

Manchester - Scotland
Manchester - Barrow
Manchester - Windermere
Birmingham - Scotland
London - Glasgow
? Liverpool - Barrow

It would be nice to have Windermere electrified, but if there isn't a way to efficently use it, I don't personally see the point.

Returning to having an hourly pattern off airport of

Lakes, Blackpool and the addition of Scotland would be simplest for rail users IMO, or of course TPE using god "Electro Diesel Multiple Units" that could yeild a nice hourly pattern on the route, regardless of it beong on or off wire, would mean more of a fleet for the TPE North Route aswell.

 

[tbtc]

There was a short news item in MR a while back stating that the DfT was "interested" in adding Windermere to the electrification scheme.

Good stuff - its the kind of "diesel island" that I hate getting left behind when other lines are electrified, especially as that'd mean everything using the branch would be electrified (compared to some electrified lines where the majority of trains on the line are still diesel-powered)

 

[Striker]

The marginal cost of electrifying a branch line to Windermere must be so negligable compared with the cost of electrifying the whole WCML that I don't understand why they don't just do it at the same time. :roll:

 

[sprinterguy]

The marginal cost of electrifying a branch line to Windermere must be so negligable compared with the cost of electrifying the whole WCML that I don't understand why they don't just do it at the same time. :roll:

When the WCML was electrified the first gen DMUs that worked the Windermere services were still fairly new, and electrifying the Windermere branch along with the West Coast would have yeilded no benefit as, unless the Windermere branch only had a shuttle from Oxenholme in the seventies which is quite possible, it would also have required electrification of Manchester-Bolton-Preston to allow the Windermere services to go over to electric operation, although I have to admit that the Manchester to Preston section was a very daft omission from the WCML electrification.

 

[tbtc]

I have to admit that the Manchester to Preston section was a very daft omission from the WCML electrification.

Agreed, especially since they did the Birmingham - Stafford line (in my eyes there are similarities between Manchester - Preston and Birmingham - Stafford - the northbound line out of a big city back to join the main London - Glasgow WCML)

 

[northwichcat]

The marginal cost of electrifying a branch line to Windermere must be so negligable compared with the cost of electrifying the whole WCML that I don't understand why they don't just do it at the same time. :roll:

At one stage a lot of local lines had preliminary work done relating to electrification but then the actual work electrifying the lines never went ahead because the cost of doing all the lines was too great. Altrincham to Chester was one such line (at the time EMUs operated all stops services between Altrincham and Manchester via Sale.)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On the line from Manchester to Bolton, there are the twin single- bore Farnworth tunnels. What particular problems could be encountered in electrifying the lines through these tunnels knowing of the shape of their profiles.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I read that they were seriously looking into electryfying windermere branch as it would require no upgrade of the power supply to operate.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I read that they were seriously looking into electryfying windermere branch as it would require no upgrade of the power supply to operate.

I just wonder if a certain Lake District poet called Wordsworth would view electrification to Windermere with horror....he was not too happy to see steam trains. He would have trouble scanning the lines of his poem, so the final two lines would end:-

And then my heart with pleasure fills
And dances with the cateneries :roll:

 

[radamfi]

Do overhead lines ruin scenic Swiss mountain railways?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do overhead lines ruin scenic Swiss mountain railways?

.....would they add scenic attraction to this part of the Lake District?

Switzerland is a very long way from the Lake District and what they do in their own country is a matter for themselves. Their vision of "scenic attraction" on mountain railways is rather more comparible with the Snowden Mountain Railway over here....rather than a heavy rail branch line of standard British gauge.

I will concede the fact that "scenic attraction" can be used by other bodies when involved with discussion about visual distractions and that wind farms are becoming more and more a factor of life where wind power could be harnessed, but that is an argument better suited for a thread on the "General Discussion" forum.

Incidentally, how have we managed to go so off-thread on a thread about Manchester Inter City services?

 

[tbtc]

I just wonder if a certain Lake District poet called Wordsworth would view electrification to Windermere with horror....he was not too happy to see steam trains. He would have trouble scanning the lines of his poem, so the final two lines would end:-

And then my heart with pleasure fills
And dances with the cateneries :roll:

Given that there are already wires through the Lake District on the WCML, I doubt a couple of miles extra in that neck of the woods is going to make much difference.

Incidentally, any southeners claiming that HS2 would ruin an area of outstanding natural beauty in the Chilterns has clearly never been to the Lake District - now *that* is an area of outstanding natural beauty...

 

[radamfi]

Being an Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty (AONB) may sound great, but actually it means that it isn't scenic enough to be a National Park (like the Lake District).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Given that there are already wires through the Lake District on the WCML, I doubt a couple of miles extra in that neck of the woods is going to make much difference.

I think that it is the UNTOUCHED area from Oxenholme through to Windermere where Wordsworth would object to. Are you sure that the distance is only a couple of miles?...Or are these "Cumbrian" miles? At least, at my great age, I can still remember this poem off by heart...did you like my last line?

.....and there are not all that many lakes running parallel with the WCML:roll:

 

[LE Greys]

And it doesn't help that the M6 runs pretty much parallel with the line.

 

[Nym]

Yes, I don't see a problem with wiring the windermere branch with respects to the national park, it will make it quieter, thus offsetting it, the only problem I can see if the level crossings.

 

[WatcherZero]

There has even been suggestions of using third rail or inductive power on the Windermere branch and other visually sensitive areas.

 

[LE Greys]

There has even been suggestions of using third rail or inductive power on the Windermere branch and other visually sensitive areas.

They suggested that for the Royal Border Bridge when the ECML was done, not anywhere else such as Durham Viaduct though. However, the cost of fitting shoegear and a flywheel system to Class 91s was far too high.

 

[WestCoast]

They suggested that for the Royal Border Bridge when the ECML was done, not anywhere else such as Durham Viaduct though. However, the cost of fitting shoegear and a flywheel system to Class 91s was far too high.

Personnally, I don't think OHLE is that much of an eyesore, even in National Parks or AONB, as long as it's restricted to just one rail route.

But then again, I quite like Wind Farms

 

[LE Greys]

Personnally, I don't think OHLE is that much of an eyesore, even in National Parks or AONB, as long as it's restricted to just one rail route.

But then again, I quite like Wind Farms

People hated windmills when they appeared, now they're on postcards and have their own preservation societies. One day, people will see modern turbines as just part of the landscape.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I would rather have a gantry than fumes and noise. Unless they want it to be completely self enclosed or use dual voltage EMU's I guess 350's could do it.

 

[Nym]

Without starting a "Whats next for wires" thread again, Windermere should be pretty high up on the list.

I'd think that Victoria - Rochdale, Stalybridge - Victoria & Guide Bridge should be pretty high on them lists aswell

Lostock - Wigan?
CLC Route?
Marple & New Mills from Piccadilly, or Chinley, extending from Hazel Grove aswell, new turnaround siding or platforms at Chinley.
GOBLIN?
Wigan - Kirby 3rd Rail (Extend merseyrail to Wigan Wallgate)?
Omskirk - Preston 3rd Rail?
Carnforth - Barrow?
Edinbrugh - Aberdeen?

Bristol - Penzance?
Cardiff - Swansea?
Valley Lines?
Crewe - Chester?

Saying so because they'll be all of these skilled labourers and plant sitting about, rearing for the next project, and if they keep the rate up, we'll have 80% done within about 30 years?

Oh, forgot the Midland Mainline...

Send the GWML crews to the Midland Mainline and the Lancs Triangle crew to do other projects...

 

[radamfi]

Overhead lines do not cause permanent damage to the countryside. They can be removed without trace once technology makes them redundant.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Some of us expect all long-distance services to be loco-hauled (preferably an HST) and will turn their noses up at a DMU doing a route like this but most "normals" won't care.

For example, on EMT's intercity (HST/Meridian) services you get the following, all of which are available on 185s:

• Refreshments trolley
• First Class section (with refreshments 7 days a week, nice big seats, curtains, etc)
• Luggage racks
• Seat reservations

Admittedly there's no quiet zone but this could be easily installed in the section of seats between First and the centre coach. Also, as has been discussed previously, they handle airport luggage much better than 158s due to the large doors which aren't at the ends of each coach.

Corridor connections would have been a good idea though!

Going back to the original reason why this thread was first posted, Manchester does appear to have been given an under capacity of seat availability on both the existing routes to Scotland.

Would you think that the existing Manchester Airport to Glasgow and Edinburgh services would have been better run with the the 5-car Class 180 units, with first class sections incorporated, as yet another alternative to the items you have quoted, when compared with the loadings available in a 3-car Class 185 unit, which admittedly has plenty of engine power.

It will not be until 2016,(hopefully),when the Manchester - Bolton - Euxton Junction is electrified which will bring the electric units (whatever is cascaded) to replace the diesel units on this section. This will bring me back to the start and I hope that the length of these replacement electric-unit coach sets on these routes will be a lesson learnt from past mistakes.