Manchester Exchange station future use?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There has been much discussion on different threads about the future use of the remaining facilities at this defunct station, to provide the site for west-facing bay platforms for MANCHESTER VICTORIA when the Ordsall Chord brings new possibilities. Would anyone care to post any new thoughts on the matter, now we have had time to evaluate the recent proposals for Manchester Victoria station.

 

[merlodlliw]

I can not take part in the discussions, other than comment as a passenger,but I recall Exchange/Victoria with its platform eleven running the entire length of both stations, then the longest platform in the UK.

All North Wales trains ran from Exchange, it was shut on Sundays before total closure,with only one train departing on Sundays from Exchange, the 10.20 P.M. boat train to Holyhead, all other Sunday services ran from Victoria.


Bob

 

[185]

I think Salford Central should be GfMPiTY's priority. Having just two platforms at what is effectively a 6 track layout is foolish - room for growth there.

And who ever heard of a medium size city centre station closed to passing trains after tea time?

 

[Johnny Lewis]

Salford Central now stays open until around 9pm, and until end of service on Friday / Saturday, at least for trains departing from Manchester Victoria.

It still doesn't open on Sundays though, which I agree is silly.

And yes, the Liverpool platforms should be brought back into use. As well as giving a direct Salford - Chat Moss - Liverpool service, it would also give an alternative routeing for trains running towards Salford Crescent, that could then run via Ordsall Lane Jn. if there were problems on the direct route.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Manchester Exchange station site is far nearer to Manchester Victoria in terms of access to the city centre in Manchester, if trains were to terminate at the west-facing bay platforms. It has immediate interchange potential.

I say this as a prospective rail traveller, not as a transport infrastructurist. You really have to consider the needs of the travelling public.

 

[Nym]

can i just say that salford central never had chat moss platforms...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

can i just say that salford central never had chat moss platforms...

You most certainly can do so. Thank you for your input.

 

[lancastrian]

Nice to see that this discussion has been revieved. I agree that the bay platforms at Exchange need to be brought back into use. That will give three west facing bays, plus two through platforms which could be redesigned as bays. That would use all the former platforms at Exchange.

Interesting to see debate about Salford Central. I agree entirely that the two closed platforms should be reopened, and that platforms be provided on the old LNWR lines. There is space as it was orginally four track. Sadly if they tried to divert the Chat Moss lines through the current two unused platforms at Salford Central, the curve to bring it back onto the Chat Moss route would be far to sharp, but I am sure that someone will tell me different.

 

[snail]

There was a lot of work done on the old platforms at Salford Central around 2007, when the entrance was refurbished. I'm sure I read something at the time that it was hoped to divert the Chat Moss line through them.

As for Exchange, haven't Salford Council proposed building two horrendous office blocks on the site? Obviously this won't affect the railway lines but may impact on what happens at Victoria. Also, it's a pretty long walk from the entrance to platforms 3-6 at Victoria to the Exchange site but where else could west-facing bays go?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As for Exchange, haven't Salford Council proposed building two horrendous office blocks on the site? Obviously this won't affect the railway lines but may impact on what happens at Victoria. Also, it's a pretty long walk from the entrance to platforms 3-6 at Victoria to the Exchange site but where else could west-facing bays go?

They may be considering building two office blocks on the site, but was not a enormous complex built on the ground area of Manchester Victoria called the MEN Arena, which has not stopped the trains still having six through platforms.

As you say, there is no other place to site any west-facing bay platforms and someone should be in discussion with Salford Council about the Northern Hub proposals, as I am sure that Salford Council know exactly what is contained within that document.

 

[lancastrian]

They may be considering building two office blocks on the site, but was not a enormous complex built on the ground area of Manchester Victoria called the MEN Arena, which has not stopped the trains still having six through platforms.

As you say, there is no other place to site any west-facing bay platforms and someone should be in discussion with Salford Council about the Northern Hub proposals, as I am sure that Salford Council know exactly what is contained within that document.

Question? where are the two extra through platforms at Victoria, I went through there about two weeks ago, and I am sure that there are only four through platforms.

Although we need a decent foot conection between the current victoria Station ansd the planned west facing bay platforms, surely they could have their own entrance, for example at the top of the Catherdal Approach. Just a thought.

 

[WatcherZero]

There is only four through platforms at Victoria along with three easterly facing bays and two Metrolink platforms. The through platforms are divided up into A and B though and are quite long though they rarely use the unsheltered part of the platforms.

 

[snail]

Although we need a decent foot conection between the current victoria Station ansd the planned west facing bay platforms, surely they could have their own entrance, for example at the top of the Catherdal Approach. Just a thought.

Isn't there a footbridge at the west end of platforms 3-6 with an exit to Hunts Bank? I think it brings you out on the arena steps. It's still another 200m though from there to the Exchange site, but where else can west-facing bays go, unless they are thinking of rebuilding the bridges over the road and rivers?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Question? where are the two extra through platforms at Victoria, I went through there about two weeks ago, and I am sure that there are only four through platforms.

Although we need a decent foot conection between the current victoria Station ansd the planned west facing bay platforms, surely they could have their own entrance, for example at the top of the Catherdal Approach. Just a thought.

My most humble apologies Old age strikes again....thinking of the old days of platforms 11 to 16.

 

[185]

Ive worked a York-Salford Crescent-Airport service booked via Ordsall Lane some time ago. It was a booked diversion and not a last minute jobby. (Routed OrsdsllLn)

Also got sent to first signal on the Chat Moss line to change ends there loads of times.

 

[ajb]

There is only four through platforms at Victoria along with three easterly facing bays and two Metrolink platforms. The through platforms are divided up into A and B though and are quite long though they rarely use the unsheltered part of the platforms.

Actually there is only two easterly facing bay platforms, i was there on Sunday

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah theres a platform sized gap with a steel railing along the edge and im always misremembering a platform being there.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yeah theres a platform sized gap with a steel railing along the edge and im always misremembering a platform being there.

These are the old platforms 9 and 10 (now platforms 1 and 2) that have been subject to a high-standard improvement. Even the railing that you refer to has received a sympathetic re-painting.

 

[Invincibles]

I would like to see Salford Central as a 6 platform station capable of having trains terminate, or join there.

I am thinking particularly about the very busy services in the Bolton direction which could be relieved with additional units (freed by the electrification) being added at Salford Central.

As this is now a very redeveloped area I think that the ability to board a train that had space (as the unit starts there) would be very beneficial to increasing the rail share of the market.

It should be quite possible to have a pacer waiting in the platform and the unit from Victoria to come and join on to it to continue North West.

Of course it is simpler to run everything through from Victoria but then the stairs would mean everyone boarding the rear unit and it would do little to change perceptions of overcrowding.

Bays on the Exchange site make a lot of sense as Chat Moss increases its' frequency and TPE start to run through Victoria. Although I would look to push as many trains through Victoria (electrifying past the City of Manchester stadium to Ashburys to carry Glossop/Hadfield trains for example) bays will inevitably be needed. Presumably platform 4 could be "closed" with the two throughs at Exchange being substituted and having a single track "approach"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It should be quite possible to have a pacer waiting in the platform.......

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Your considered analysis was reading very well, until I read this particular sentence, which "pricked the bubble" of expectations of a vibrant modern 6-platform station.

 

[Invincibles]

It should be quite possible to have a pacer waiting in the platform.......

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Your considered analysis was reading very well, until I read this particular sentence, which "pricked the bubble" of expectations of a vibrant modern 6-platform station.

Well it would be lovely to think there would be some good new stock for North West Manchester, but I think that the only things spare for some time will be pacers.

Not totally sure if that would encourage people to use Salford Central and be more certain of a seat...

I just try to be a little realistic

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There was a lot of work done on the old platforms at Salford Central around 2007, when the entrance was refurbished. I'm sure I read something at the time that it was hoped to divert the Chat Moss line through them....

There was such a plan, don't know what happened to it though.

 

[Nym]

Not many journeys to or from the Chat Moss to Salford Central.

It would be better to provide 4 platforms for the line to Windsor Bridge Jcn, with turnback facility on the central two platforms so services can be pushed through Victoria to terminate there. But I'd also be looking at doing somthing USEFUL at Salford Crescent, you know, more platforms, moving it to the North of it's current location, ANYTHING!

As for tracks on the Chat Moss route, if what I had planned for it came to fruition there wouldn't be space. As a matter of futureproofing, I'd have four tracks running down the Chat Moss.

As most sevices from the Castlefeild Curve would be running through victoria, and a reasonable amount from the Chat Moss terminating at the new Exchange platforms. I would have some lovely 4 track.

The Castlefeild Curve would either, 'curve tight' onto the Current Chat Moss viaduct tracks (the one by Trinity Road), with a new bridge / viaduct over Ordstall Lane Junction being provided for the Chat Moss - Victoria flow. Running on the Trinity Way side of the viaduct as 4 track all the way to Deal St, possibly all the way upto Victoria.

The through tracks would run as,

Salford Central -- Victoria Pt 5 & 6
Castlefeild Curve -- Victoria Pt 3 & 4
Chat Moss -- Exchange Platforms & Pt 3 & 4

Everything through Salford Central, currently 6tph, if we see sense and put the tracks back to Leigh, 8tph, allowing for more Bolton services, 10tph. Would all run through Platform 5 and 6, And with some more wires onto either Rochdale (Or beyond) or Stalybridge. Wires to Stalybridge I'd see as having Diesels sent to Rochdale as stoppers (With new west facing bays) and Electrics sent to Stalybridge or possibly Ashburys (both with new bays).

Everything on Platforms 3 and 4 would be running through anyway, as it would be used by TP Express services (4tph, extend Hull - Manchester to Chester via Warrington) Calder Valley - Airport services (2tph) and possibly Liverpool - Norwich Services (1tph), and maybe a Liverpool - Manchester extended to Stalybridge.

1 and 2 as is, although their use would decline as Calder Valley Stoppers would be formed up from Wigan via Bolton services. Only really seeing Huddersfeild - Manchester (Although that will proberbly go to Piccadilly), and if the 4 tracking happens on the Diggle Route, the semi fasts over that way, 2tph.

Anyway, it would also mean that what would be a lot of crossing movments on one flat junction would be reduced, with 6tph being taken over the top, 4tph from Castlefeild Jcn to Victoria, 4tph from Castlefeild Jcn to Windsor Bridge and upto 2 tph onto the Chat Moss if kind of the limit. Take the 6tph from victoria into this aswell and it seems stupid, the viaduct will proberbly be needed and if it isn't built now it will be a mistake.

Anyway, with 8 tracks through Salford Central again you'd be hard pressed to find platforms for the Chat Moss.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Not many journeys to or from the Chat Moss to Salford Central....

That might be something to do with a 15 minute bus journey from Patricroft/Eccles every 12 minutes or so (on a 67 bus (other buses also run)) compared with a 27 minute journey (with a change) every hour by rail.

But that's not the whole picture, a stop at Salford Central may provide some passengers with connections for the Southport trains (which leave Victoria 2 minutes before the Chat Moss stopper arrives), and consequently there may be better connections at Salford Crescent for other destinations.

 

[Nym]

or they could just connect at wigan, remember there'll be a step increase in services to 4tph fast and at a guess 2 or 4 tph slow with connections to wigan. If it where a choice of 4 track + grade sep or platforms, i know what i'd choose...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

or they could just connect at wigan, remember there'll be a step increase in services to 4tph fast and at a guess 2 or 4 tph slow with connections to wigan. If it where a choice of 4 track + grade sep or platforms, i know what i'd choose...

How did the area of Wigan suddenly come into a very localised query between Manchester Exchange and Salford stations?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That is probably my fault for mentioning connecting trains in the Salford area.

or they could just connect at wigan.....

Ah yes, get the train to Wigan (assuming it goes to North Western), walk through the town to Wallgate to continue, or go to Salford Central, (using a subway only on the return journey) and join the direct train. Tough choice. But just because they may be connecting to the Southport train, doesn't mean they are going to Southport

 

[Invincibles]

As I understand it there will be 6 tracks intially:

2 to Salford Crescent
2 to Chat Moss
2 to Deansgate (new Chord)

How does the new alignment interfere with Salford Central as I think this is what will create the problems (or otherwise).

So if I want to make 4 platforms for the Salford Crescent line and 2 for the Chat Moss then I would have problems with the new chord?

I do believe in the potential of Salford Central as an interchange station to take some pressure of Victoria. Whether anything more can be achieved I do not know.

In terms of Exchange then I wonder if a scissors crossing in the middle of platforms 3 and 4 at Victoria could be introduced with the two platforms of Exchange coming back into use. This may make it possible for a train to call at Exchange and snake through Victoria to get out.

Another radical solution that could work is to build platforms on all lines at Exchange, as a new station effectively, the viaduct is wide enough. This would make the distance to connect to platforms 1 and 2 a long one, but would create a lot of through platform capacity (potentially 7 plus the ability to use Victorias 4 as well).

Or they could just build a couple of west facing bays (I would be tempted to have 2 on the north side as well as the south side)

 

[Stonesourscotty]

I remember once being on a 150 on a Kirkby and it got routed avoiding Central and hooked up to a Clitheroe and Detached at Crescent cant remember what the reason was or when but it was last 2 years and was a Fridays afternoon Journey and was very peculiar not stopping at Central.... it was a Booked stop at Central.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Although we need a decent foot conection between the current Victoria Station ansd the planned west facing bay platforms, surely they could have their own entrance, for example at the top of the Catherdal Approach. Just a thought.

This would be the entrance that was used by passengers, like myself, who used Manchester Exchange station when it was a working station. The last train that I used from there was a direct train to Holyhead many years ago.

It was not a very good entrance area for passengers to use in those days, but if this station could be brought back into use, something surely could be done to make it attractive to users. You only have to see the improvement works at ground level at Salford Central station, with the full length glass screened area alone, to see what would be possible.

Remember that Manchester Cathedral is situated opposite, on the other side of the river Irwell, so a sympathetic restoration which would enhance the visual aspect of the area and would have much to recommend it.