Manchester -> Chesham Und (Any permitted?)

[Mcr Warrior]

What routeings are actually permitted on the £69.90 "Any Permitted" SVR fare?

 

[island]

Rather a lot.

Do you have something particular in mind?

 

[LexyBoy]

I think the question is "is travel via London permitted?". And "if not, where exactly is one supposed to enter the Underground network?".

It looks a lot like the Manchester <> Reading/Oxford/Islip situation, except in this case NRE doesn't even accept Chesham as a destination. (edit: WebTIS does though, only showing Via London fares). The Routeing Guide doesn't have instructions on determining routes to Underground stations does it?
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I assume the intended route is with a change at Amersham or Chalfont from the Chiltern line. I can't get this to show up anywhere though.

In practice, it's an Underground station so I'd expect travel via London to be allowed. Certainly less likely to cause problems than Manchester-Oxford at the Euston gatelines. Also any reasonable route, which here would mean Manchester-Brum-Amersham-underground to destination.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Rather a lot.

Do you have something particular in mind?

I had originally presumed that travel via (say) London Euston or London Marlylebone wouldn't be allowed, as there's a higher £86.60 "via London" Manchester - Chesham Und SVR fare. Is this understanding correct?

A couple of possible alternative routes...

Manchester -> Birmingham New Street ->(walk to) Birmingham Moor Street -> Princes Risborough -> Aylesbury -> Chalfont & Latimer -> Chesham.

Manchester -> Milton Keynes Central -> Watford Junction -> (walk to) Watford Underground -> Moor Park -> Chalfont & Latimer -> Chesham.

 

[sonic2009]

Is Watford Junction to Watford Underground a Permitted Interchange?

 

[LexyBoy]

I had originally presumed that travel via (say) London Euston or London Marlylebone wouldn't be allowed, as there's a higher £86.60 "via London" Manchester - Chesham Und SVR fare. Is this understanding correct?

The presence of a more expensive routed fare doesn't affect the Permitted Routes for an Any Permitted fare. For example, London-Huddersfield has a £127 SOS Any Permitted and a £171.50 SOS Via Manchester; Manchester is on a Permitted Route for the cheaper ticket.

Virgin seem to be the most common offender for this in my experience.

Is Watford Junction to Watford Underground a Permitted Interchange?

Underground routeings seem a bit bizarre to me; this could well be the/an intended route. For example, what are the permitted routes between Reading and Ruislip Underground on a Reading-U1256 SDR Viaaling Common/West Acton?

 

[lightbulb]

The cluster is:

0506 AMERSHAM UND
0543 CHESHAM UND
3054 HIGH WYCOMBE
0539 CHALFONT & L UND
1463 GREAT MISSENDEN

Might this indicate that the intended routing is via Birmingham, Princes Risboroough, Aylesbury, and Chalfont & Latimer, and therefore not via Watford Junction and Watford Und?

 

[Metrailway]

IMHO I would say that you are permitted to travel via London.

The only way you can get to Chesham by rail is via Chalfont & Latimer. The routeing points for Chalfont & Latimer are Aylesbury and the London Group.

Even if you choose Aylesbury as your routeing point, you are permitted to go via London.

I doubt Watford Junction to Watford Metropolitan is a permitted interchange.

 

[MikeWh]

I doubt Watford Junction to Watford Metropolitan is a permitted interchange.

It sort of will be when the Croxley rail link opens.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Underground routeings seem a bit bizarre to me; this could well be the/an intended route. For example, what are the permitted routes between Reading and Ruislip Underground on a Reading-U1256 SDR Viaaling Common/West Acton?

I think the Manual says you can change from NR to the underground anywhere, as long as the LU part of your journey is confined to the zones permitted by the U part of the ticket. It seems that, for that ticket, the permitted routes are the intended ones: any permitted route on NR to Ealing Broadway (only the straight line is allowed presumably) and then any route on LU as long as it doesn't pass north of Moor Park.

A really confusing one in that part of the world is Maidenhead to Sudbury Hill Harrow route VIA GREENFORD. I can't fathom how they intended that ticket to be used, let alone what routes are actually permitted. Could it be a throwback from the 1960s or before when Greenford had platforms on the main line?

 

[Hassocks5489]

I think the Manual says you can change from NR to the underground anywhere, as long as the LU part of your journey is confined to the zones permitted by the U part of the ticket. It seems that, for that ticket, the permitted routes are the intended ones: any permitted route on NR to Ealing Broadway (only the straight line is allowed presumably) and then any route on LU as long as it doesn't pass north of Moor Park.

A really confusing one in that part of the world is Maidenhead to Sudbury Hill Harrow route VIA GREENFORD. I can't fathom how they intended that ticket to be used, let alone what routes are actually permitted. Could it be a throwback from the 1960s or before when Greenford had platforms on the main line?

I think it must be. I was looking into this routeing in detail a few weeks ago after somebody showed me a Haddenham & Thame Parkway > Ealing Broadway ticket routed VIA GREENFORD. I found that there are fares on this route to the Ealing Broadway cluster (South Greenford, Castle Bar Park, Drayton Green, Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line) from every station between Denham and Bicester North, and everything as far round as Wendover via Aylesbury. I hadn't noticed Maidenhead to Sudbury Hill Harrow though (or, presumably, its variants)...

 

[MichaelAMW]

I think it must be. I was looking into this routeing in detail a few weeks ago after somebody showed me a Haddenham & Thame Parkway > Ealing Broadway ticket routed VIA GREENFORD. I found that there are fares on this route to the Ealing Broadway cluster (South Greenford, Castle Bar Park, Drayton Green, Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line) from every station between Denham and Bicester North, and everything as far round as Wendover via Aylesbury. I hadn't noticed Maidenhead to Sudbury Hill Harrow though (or, presumably, its variants)...

There has been availability for National Rail tickets on the Central Line between West Ruislip and Greenford since the line opened and replaced the GWR local service. It's in the routeing guide and National Rail will offer journeys that way. I have always assumed that this availability derives, in part at least, from the fact that the GWR built the line.

For what it's worth, I have here a three-monthly season from 1982, High Wycombe to London (Marylebone), with route: "via Beaconsfield and Wembley Complex. Also available South Ruislip to Paddington (W.R.) via Park Royal or Drayton Green. Available on L.T. services between Marylebone and Paddington." I don't know if there is any significance in the fact that the Paddington route is an "also available" rather than a simple "via".
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A really confusing one in that part of the world is Maidenhead to Sudbury Hill Harrow route VIA GREENFORD. I can't fathom how they intended that ticket to be used, let alone what routes are actually permitted. Could it be a throwback from the 1960s or before when Greenford had platforms on the main line?

Change at Ealing Broadway, Greenford and South Ruislip. (And see above.)

 

[Mojo]

There has been availability for National Rail tickets on the Central Line between West Ruislip and Greenford since the line opened and replaced the GWR local service. It's in the routeing guide and National Rail will offer journeys that way. I have always assumed that this availability derives, in part at least, from the fact that the GWR built the line.

Do you have any documentary evidence of this, as the only documented Joint availability that I have come across is between West Ruislip and South Ruislip, and there is nothing in the contract between Transport Trading and Atoc about this acceptance? Certainly if it was in the Routeing Guide it would not be the first time Atoc have said something is valid on LUL whereas in reality it is not.

With regards to the other discussion in this post, another ticket I regularly used to buy, before Chiltern scrapped the First class version a couple of years ago was Birmingham Stns to U1245 route Northolt Und. I had no problems using this ticket via Euston, and indeed, cannot think of another way to go to Ruislip Gardens from Birmingham without doubling back, but still passing Northolt, unless you count going via Reading + Ealing Bdy.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Do you have any documentary evidence of this, as the only documented Joint availability that I have come across is between West Ruislip and South Ruislip, and there is nothing in the contract between Transport Trading and Atoc about this acceptance? Certainly if it was in the Routeing Guide it would not be the first time Atoc have said something is valid on LUL whereas in reality it is not.

I was careful not to overstate myself, hence my comment that the arrangement started when the Central Line opened (hearsay from an older member of staff sometime in the 80s), continued under BR (seen the documentation but don't have it, explicit route availability on BR-days tickets) and appears to continue now (e.g. National Rail seems to allow it.) - so the answer to your question is no!

 

[PermitToTravel]

I agree with Mojo in that the only interavailability I know of on the Chiltern line at present is between the Ruislips. I am pretty confident that that ticket is not valid on the Underground.

 

[MichaelAMW]

I agree with Mojo in that the only interavailability I know of on the Chiltern line at present is between the Ruislips. I am pretty confident that that ticket is not valid on the Underground.

I'm not quite sure which ticket "that ticket" refers to. However, there are tickets that are not zonal LT tickets but clearly do have availability over the South Ruislip to Greenford section, e.g. High Wycombe to Ealing Broadway as mentioned up thread. Regarding interavailability, you might argue that there isn't the possibility of such a thing between S Ruislip and Greenford as there's only one train a day along there and, in any case, it's fast to Paddington, being unable to call at Greenford. South Ruislip - Paddington on the direct train is entirely separate from South Ruislip - Greenford - Ealing Bdy - wherever. There are other places where National Rail tickets are available on LT for part of their journey and it seem to me that this is one of them.

 

[Metrailway]

In BR days, I am pretty certain West Ruislip - Greenford was an 'inter-available route'. I know Greenford hasn't appeared for sometime on the official list but I wonder when it was actually removed?

On the old Edmondson tickets from Chiltern line stations to London, it would usually clearly state that you were able to use LT/electric services between West Ruislip and Greenford.

Using the routeing guide for a Denham - Ealing Broadway via Greenford Anytime Day Single, one must travel via Greenford avoiding London Group stations using either Map RG or GC. The only way to do this is via the Central line.

Anyway, to Mojo and Fahad, I have to disagree with the assertion that via Greenford is not valid on Central Line services between South Ruislip and Greenford.

Using just the list of inter-available routes to determine LU validity is a bit of a red herring as that list doesn't state the LU routes valid using NR tickets off these joint routes. For example, the list has nothing about the various Any Permitted routed fare requiring Cross London transfer.

I'm certain that until very recently the routing for these via Greenford tickets actually stated Greenford Und. And there is an agreement between ATOC and TfL regarding such routed tickets:

To Ealing Broadway via South Ruislip and South Greenford, TTL shall be due the zone 45 fare in accordance with the LUL farescale, representing the value of travel on Underground Services between South Ruislip and Greenford...

... Tickets shall bear the destination Ealing Broadway and the routeing “Greenford (Und)”

 

[John @ home]

I'm certain that until very recently the routing for these via Greenford tickets actually stated Greenford Und.

Yes, http://www.farehistory.info/history/dnm/eal/ shows that the Route was GREENFORD (UND) until the recent widespread introduction of the word VIA.

I wonder whether ATOC sought an agreement from LU to allow a change in "Tickets shall bear the destination Ealing Broadway and the routeing “Greenford (Und)”".

 

[PermitToTravel]

In BR days, I am pretty certain West Ruislip - Greenford was an 'inter-available route'. I know Greenford hasn't appeared for sometime on the official list but I wonder when it was actually removed?

On the old Edmondson tickets from Chiltern line stations to London, it would usually clearly state that you were able to use LT/electric services between West Ruislip and Greenford.

Using the routeing guide for a Denham - Ealing Broadway via Greenford Anytime Day Single, one must travel via Greenford avoiding London Group stations using either Map RG or GC. The only way to do this is via the Central line.

Anyway, to Mojo and Fahad, I have to disagree with the assertion that via Greenford is not valid on Central Line services between South Ruislip and Greenford.

Using just the list of inter-available routes to determine LU validity is a bit of a red herring as that list doesn't state the LU routes valid using NR tickets off these joint routes. For example, the list has nothing about the various Any Permitted routed fare requiring Cross London transfer.

I'm certain that until very recently the routing for these via Greenford tickets actually stated Greenford Und. And there is an agreement between ATOC and TfL regarding such routed tickets:

I stand corrected - thank you very much!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Back on topic, experienced no great problem when using the £69.90 "any available" Manchester -> Chesham Und SVR ticket by travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Birmingham New Street, then getting a Chiltern service from Birmingham Moor Street to London Marylebone, before crossing platforms for an Aylesbury bound train at London Marylebone, alighting at Chalfont & Latimer for the connection to Chesham Und.