Manchester - Buxton line poor service

[VideozVideoz]

Hi Experts. Does anyone have a clue what on earth is wrong with the Manchester-Buxton line? The service by Northern is appalling. Even without the bad weather the train limps along from Manchester to Stockport (losing time). Then it progresses through to Hazel Grove (loses even more time). By the time it reaches New Mills its often 10-20mins late. It never picks up speed and just chugs along as if theres no timetable. This line has a lot of commuters and I always hear complaints from them about the service. The recent weather has caused many trains to be over 30mins later then they terminate it at Hazel Grove! How annoying. If anyone has any experience or answers with regards to this line I'd be glad to hear them. VideozVideoz

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Hi Experts. Does anyone have a clue what on earth is wrong with the Manchester-Buxton line? The service by Northern is appalling. Even without the bad weather the train limps along from Manchester to Stockport (losing time). Then it progresses through to Hazel Grove (loses even more time). By the time it reaches New Mills its often 10-20mins late. It never picks up speed and just chugs along as if theres no timetable.

One of the problems with the Buxton line heading towards new Mills/Buxton is the gradient, it is far constantly steeper than many other railway lines in the North, it can be hard at times, especially in bad weather, to indeed get to Buxton, the journey times to Buxton are often 5-10 minutes longer than heading towards Manchester because of this. the Manchester-Stockport corridor is one of the busiest outside of London, so it is understandable why sometimes it goes slower, especially if there are late-running services before it, the same could apply to Stockport-Hazel Grove. I do not know why there is not a better service (i.e. half-hourly services to Buxton); it does seem fairly well-used, even on weekends...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

One of the problems with the Buxton line heading towards new Mills/Buxton is the gradient, it is far constantly steeper than many other railway lines in the North, it can be hard at times, especially in bad weather, to indeed get to Buxton, the journey times to Buxton are often 5-10 minutes longer than heading towards Manchester because of this. the Manchester-Stockport corridor is one of the busiest outside of London, so it is understandable why sometimes it goes slower, especially if there are late-running services before it, the same could apply to Stockport-Hazel Grove. I do not know why there is not a better service (i.e. half-hourly services to Buxton); it does seem fairly well-used, even on weekends...

The services are timed the same both ways, However on the return to trip to Manchester we usually have atleast 5 mins waiting time at Hazel Grove, also what you have to remember is on the approach to Hazel grove from Manchester is the Hazel Grove Chord Which TPE and East Midlands Trains both use which can very easily hold services up if you are chasing yellows from Stockport

 

[Wyvern]

The loop over Doveholes, instead of going down the valley, was only built to keep the Midland out of Manchester.

THe Midland commented "The proposed railway, for some reason which does not appear on the face of it" is run along the high country where there is little or no population; and instead of taking the valley with a gradually rising ascent, "it goes up the steep gradient out of Buxton, to fall down again. The line appears to me to have gone up the hill for the sake of going down again."

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockport,_Disley_and_Whaley_Bridge_Railway

That's the sort of problems you get with an unregulated private railway system.

 

[Greenback]

The services are timed the same both ways, However on the return to trip to Mcr we usually have atleast 5 mins waiting time at Hazel Grove, also what you have to remember is on the approach to Hazel grove from Manchester is the Hazel Grove Chord Which TPE and East Midlands Trains both use which can very easily hold services up if you are chasing yellows from Stockport

Is the Hazel Grove chord single track, or am I getting confused with somewhere else?

 

[sprinterguy]

Is the Hazel Grove chord single track, or am I getting confused with somewhere else?

Confused with somewhere else, the Hazel Grove chord is double track

 

[CosherB]

Nope, it's single.

 

[Greenback]

I thought it was constructed as a single line back in the 80's but wasn't sure if it had been doubled since?

 

[tbtc]

Is the Hazel Grove chord single track, or am I getting confused with somewhere else?

Yup a single chord there and a single chord at Dore too, which makes the Manchester - Sheffield a real challenge (as well as fitting in to the tight slots over the Stockport viaduct and the two track approach to Sheffield and...)

But, I digress. This thread is about Buxton. As has been said above, the gradient is a problem - some trains can't climb it (Pacers). Presumably we'd have a smoother more reliable service if it were electrified. However the powers that be stopped the wires at the boundary between Greater Manchester and Derbyshire (Hazel Grove), even though hardly any EMUs run to Hazel Grove any more.

Without electrification it'll struggle to get a better service. I can't see any more slots available over Stockport viaduct, and even if there were they'd have to compete with demand for trains between Manchester and Birmingham/ Cardiff/ London/ Sheffield/ Cheshire etc. Shame it's not on the list to be done when other Manchester area lines get electrified.

 

[CosherB]

Some of that traffic (Cardiff and Brum, for instance) could go via the Styal line and bypass Stockport, unless the line between the Airport and Manchester is also full!

 

[Chapeltom]

Buxton to Manchester is ALWAYS on time (I mean that leg not the whole service), I travel primarily on Saturday mornings when the 2 car service is like sardines and it has expressed between Stockport & Manchester, leaving out H.Chapel and Levenshulme.

Manchester to Buxton, 10 minutes late isn't unusual and train do seem to lose time between Manchester + Stockport easily, the OP is right. But its my nearest line and I'd rather these trains run late than other trains if I'm coming back from Liverpool/Blackpool/East Lancs.

 

[Lampshade]

The difference between then and now though, is that it worked.

 

[Wyvern]

The difference between then and now though, is that it worked.

Except the shareholders didnt make a great deal of money (even though they expected to when they invested)

As for the railway staff read about the North Midland Railway for an example.

It explains why places like New Mills had two stations when they were barely big enough for one, also Chapel en le Frith, and of course Buxton itself which justified a main line service.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Yup a single chord there and a single chord at Dore too, which makes the Manchester - Sheffield a real challenge (as well as fitting in to the tight slots over the Stockport viaduct and the two track approach to Sheffield and...)

But, I digress. This thread is about Buxton. As has been said above, the gradient is a problem - some trains can't climb it (Pacers). Presumably we'd have a smoother more reliable service if it were electrified. However the powers that be stopped the wires at the boundary between Greater Manchester and Derbyshire (Hazel Grove), even though hardly any EMUs run to Hazel Grove any more.

Without electrification it'll struggle to get a better service. I can't see any more slots available over Stockport viaduct, and even if there were they'd have to compete with demand for trains between Manchester and Birmingham/ Cardiff/ London/ Sheffield/ Cheshire etc. Shame it's not on the list to be done when other Manchester area lines get electrified.

The trouble with pacers, is when both engines are running its fine but asoon as one goes......

 

[tbtc]

The trouble with pacers, is

That could be a long list

(I don't mind them, but I know a lot of here have a problem with them)

 

[Dolive22]

The trouble with pacers, is when both engines are running its fine but asoon as one goes......

Do they really have engine failure so often that you know their characteristics on one engine?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Do they really have engine failure so often that you know their characteristics on one engine?

they can barely do the hope valley line gradients on 1 engine, thats the reason why 142,s are not permitted for Buxton, basically not enough grunt to climb the steep gradients on 1 engine
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That could be a long list

(I don't mind them, but I know a lot of here have a problem with them)

i find they are g8 when its quiet but at peak times they are a nightmare also all day on a pacer is backache in the evening

 

[YorkshireBear]

been on a 142 with one engine failure 3 times in 6 months, once crawling on hope valley so yes they do have one engine fail

 

[tbtc]

i find they are g8 when its quiet but at peak times they are a nightmare also all day on a pacer is backache in the evening

Have they resolved the problem with the doors (where the Guard could only work one door, meaning they couldn't get through the whole train between stops)? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Have they resolved the problem with the doors (where the Guard could only work one door, meaning they couldn't get through the whole train between stops)? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

i think your thinking of the DKS position being in the cabs, on the Western side they have been in the saloon for years, they are still converting the Eastern side ones (like I had yesterday) and they are a PITA

 

[tbtc]

i think your thinking of the DKS position being in the cabs, on the Western side they have been in the saloon for years, they are still converting the Eastern side ones (like I had yesterday) and they are a PITA

Ah, that'll be it

Seemed a really strange bit of design (since you needed to head to the cab to sort the doors each time)...

 

[VideozVideoz]

One of the problems with the Buxton line heading towards new Mills/Buxton is the gradient, it is far constantly steeper than many other railway lines in the North, it can be hard at times, especially in bad weather, to indeed get to Buxton, the journey times to Buxton are often 5-10 minutes longer than heading towards Manchester because of this. the Manchester-Stockport corridor is one of the busiest outside of London, so it is understandable why sometimes it goes slower, especially if there are late-running services before it, the same could apply to Stockport-Hazel Grove. I do not know why there is not a better service (i.e. half-hourly services to Buxton); it does seem fairly well-used, even on weekends...

Fully agree with you about the gradient from Hazel Grove onwards towards Buxton. That makes a lot of sense. What doesn't make sense to me is why the trains bound for Manchester are timetabled to wait 5mins at Hazel Grove. Is someone trying to stand in the way of progress here? I remember (when I were a lad! Only joking) back in the early 90s the slam-door trains used to rocket along between Middlewood and Hazel Grove. Once I could see into the rear cab and occasionally the speedo said 75mph! Nowadays, you're lucky if the trains go any faster than 40 on that same stretch.

Regarding the Stockport/Manchester viaduct slots theres been talk about increasing the frequency from hourly to half-hourly on Buxton-Manchester (like it used to be back in the 80s/90s). Unlikely it will come to fruition. They need to get the hourly services more ounctual first!

Last point from me... why is the 0748 commuter train from Buxton-Manchester allowed to pass Stockport non-stop? Apparently there is a railway bylaw that states any train that uses the vuaduct at Stockport has to stop at the station!

VideozVideoz

 

[bradders1983]

Fully agree with you about the gradient from Hazel Grove onwards towards Buxton. That makes a lot of sense. What doesn't make sense to me is why the trains bound for Manchester are timetabled to wait 5mins at Hazel Grove. Is someone trying to stand in the way of progress here? I remember (when I were a lad! Only joking) back in the early 90s the slam-door trains used to rocket along between Middlewood and Hazel Grove. Once I could see into the rear cab and occasionally the speedo said 75mph! Nowadays, you're lucky if the trains go any faster than 40 on that same stretch.

Regarding the Stockport/Manchester viaduct slots theres been talk about increasing the frequency from hourly to half-hourly on Buxton-Manchester (like it used to be back in the 80s/90s). Unlikely it will come to fruition. They need to get the hourly services more ounctual first!

Last point from me... why is the 0748 commuter train from Buxton-Manchester allowed to pass Stockport non-stop? Apparently there is a railway bylaw that states any train that uses the vuaduct at Stockport has to stop at the station!

VideozVideoz

I believe if it stops at Stockport it affects another service so it has to pass through to allow it to keep to time.

As for the last paragraph, no such covenant exists, at least not today. Virgin (or was it XC?) timetabled certain trains to pass through Stockport a year or so ago, although this has now been changed.

 

[YorkshireBear]

an early morning XC depature for bournemouth (on a saturday anyway) bypasses stockport...

 

[Kingfisher200262]

However the powers that be stopped the wires at the boundary between Greater Manchester and Derbyshire (Hazel Grove), even though hardly any EMUs run to Hazel Grove any more.

Sorry to be pedantic, but between Hazel Grove (is this the Greater Manchester boundary?) and Derbyshire, there's quite a bit of Cheshire, including Middlewood and Disley stations. The county boundary is a few hundred metres short of New Mills Newtown station.

The demise of EMU services starting at Hazel Grove is a local scandal, brought about entirely as a result of more paths being allocated to West Coast for the VHF timetable introduction. This must have turned some commuters in Hazel Grove off rail and put more pressure on the heavily congested A6.

Forcing commuters off rail into cars and under-utilising electrified lines; two strikes for the oil barons in one fell swoop! Another own goal! :roll:

 

[YorkshireBear]

Sorry to be pedantic, but between Hazel Grove (is this the Greater Manchester boundary?) and Derbyshire, there's quite a bit of Cheshire, including Middlewood and Disley stations. The county boundary is a few hundred metres short of New Mills Newtown station.

The demise of EMU services starting at Hazel Grove is a local scandal, brought about entirely as a result of more paths being allocated to West Coast for the VHF timetable introduction. This must have turned some commuters in Hazel Grove off rail and put more pressure on the heavily congested A6.

Forcing commuters off rail into cars and under-utilising electrified lines; two strikes for the oil barons in one fell swoop! Another own goal! :roll:

:/ an embarrsing own goal at that, hopefully the NW electrification and the 319's will bring hazel grove back

 

[VideozVideoz]

Sorry to be pedantic, but between Hazel Grove (is this the Greater Manchester boundary?) and Derbyshire, there's quite a bit of Cheshire, including Middlewood and Disley stations. The county boundary is a few hundred metres short of New Mills Newtown station.

The demise of EMU services starting at Hazel Grove is a local scandal, brought about entirely as a result of more paths being allocated to West Coast for the VHF timetable introduction. This must have turned some commuters in Hazel Grove off rail and put more pressure on the heavily congested A6.

Forcing commuters off rail into cars and under-utilising electrified lines; two strikes for the oil barons in one fell swoop! Another own goal! :roll:

The Greater Manchester boundary for this line is Middlewood so only Disley station is in Cheshire. I agree that the electrified lines to Hazel Grove are now very under-utilised. I believe hardly any EMUs run that route now. What a waste of time, money and infrastructure. Also, you're right the A6 is just a road to avoid. The traffic lights, the arrival of Sainsbury's/Asda in Hazel Grove hasn't helped... its one corridor I would wish to avoid during peak times!

Hwowver, back to my original point, the Manchester to Buxton service is appalling especially at commuter times. We know Stockport is heavily congested and timeslots are tight but what on earth can be done to improve the punctuality of these services? The introduction of platform 0 at Stockport didn't help.

 

[tbtc]

Sorry to be pedantic, but between Hazel Grove (is this the Greater Manchester boundary?) and Derbyshire, there's quite a bit of Cheshire, including Middlewood and Disley stations. The county boundary is a few hundred metres short of New Mills Newtown station

That's fair enough - apologies for getting my geography in a twist
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hwowver, back to my original point, the Manchester to Buxton service is appalling especially at commuter times

As discussed in the thread about Wrexham - Manchester trains, there are a lot of places under 50 miles from Manchester with *no* direct service.

Buxton only gets on train an hour, but that's still on a par with places like Blackburn, and much better than some places get

(I'm saying this in terms of frequency, I can't comment on the reliability of the service to Buxton if that was your main point)

 

[Lampshade]

The demise of EMU services starting at Hazel Grove is a local scandal, brought about entirely as a result of more paths being allocated to West Coast for the VHF timetable introduction. This must have turned some commuters in Hazel Grove off rail and put more pressure on the heavily congested A6.

Forcing commuters off rail into cars and under-utilising electrified lines; two strikes for the oil barons in one fell swoop! Another own goal! :roll:

It's more to do with TPE wanting to run faster services to Manchester Airport, most South TPE services called at Mauldeth Road, Burnage etc. When TPE withdrew the service it was replaced by the xx14 Northern service using the displaced 323s from the Hazel Grove services, which was extended to Preston via Bolton.

EDIT: And as for turning commuters in Hazel Grove off rail, the peak 323s were replaced by 180s, so it's not like they got inferior trains as a replacement.

 

[tbtc]

the peak 323s were replaced by 180s, so it's not like they got inferior trains as a replacement

Given that Northern only use two 180 units a day on the Hazel Grove - Preston and Manchester Victoria - Blackpool line, the majority of Hazel Grover terminators get something else