Manchester - Blackpool & Scotland TPEx Changes

[cle]

Manchester - Cardiff is not an intercity route by any definition, except that it links two cities - with an awful lot of villages, small towns and countryside in between.

It performs many functions; I would be surprised if more than 10% of the people on a train leaving Manchester were heading to Cardiff and beyond.

It's nothing close to Scotland or Birmingham - and not within a million miles of the London service (27 electric cars per hour, compared to 2-4 diesel ones). Bristol would be leagues ahead too, not even considering Leeds, Liverpool and Sheffield.

 

[Philip]

Why isn't it comparable to the Scotland service? Cardiff has 2-4 coaches per hour, between them Glasgow and Edinburgh have 3 coaches every 2 hours! As has been mentioned in this thread there aren't a huge number of passengers travelling all the way up to Scotland from Manchester - most have got off by Preston. The last Carlisle train is also a couple of hours earlier than the last Cardiff train out of Manchester.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think that's a bit harsh.
When I catch the Cardiff from Manchester there is always a fair sprinkling of long-distance reservations laid out to Cardiff or beyond.
Locals bailing out at Wilmslow/Crewe are more than replaced by more long-distance folk at Crewe and there are healthy loads south of there.
The route has also come up significantly over the years since BR reduced it to a 2-hourly all-stops shuttle between Cardiff and Crewe.

I can show you emptier Birmingham-Liverpool LM services, which claim to be inter-city.

Cardiff qualifies as a city-region every bit as much as Bristol.
The old North and West route (before 1970) certainly did class this route (and its extension to Bristol via the Severn Tunnel) as inter-city.
Fortunately it has not lost all of its long-distance character.

Shrewsbury and Hereford might not be huge but they are just as significant economically as places like Rugby and Doncaster which have inter-city railway status.

 

[Eagle]

Manchester - Cardiff is not an intercity route by any definition, except that it links two cities - with an awful lot of villages, small towns and countryside in between.

Actually it links four cities (Hereford and Newport are cities).

In fact as most Manchester to Cardiff trains continue to at least Swansea, that makes five.



Where would RailUK be without pedants?

 

[northwichcat]

Number of cities served doesn't mean a lot. Shrewsbury is a county town and has a cathedral and it's larger than Hereford. If Shrewsbury's cathedral was C of E instead of Catholic and Hereford's was Catholic and not C of E then we would be likely talking about the Manchester-South Wales services serving the city of Shrewsbury and the town of Hereford.
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I can show you emptier Birmingham-Liverpool LM services, which claim to be inter-city.

With Birmingham-Liverpool mainly getting 350/2s now and half the services forming the local stopping service between Crewe and Liverpool South Parkway I'm not sure many people would argue that it is Intercity, more that it should be like Birmingham-Manchester in terms of number of stops and interior comfort.

Manchester-Cardiff usually gets around 135 seats per hour. Liverpool-Birmingham gets almost 600 seats per hour so I wouldn't be surprised if some Liverpool-Birmingham services do look very empty compared to Manchester-Cardiff services.

 

[tbtc]

I can show you emptier Birmingham-Liverpool LM services, which claim to be inter-city

Who makes this claim of the LM 350/2s?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Who makes this claim of the LM 350/2s?

The general public would consider the main train service between two of England's biggest city-regions as "inter-city".
I appreciate the railway doesn't seem to at the moment.
LM does have a special name for these services (and the Trent Valley services) but it's such a memorable brand I can't remember what it is...
EDIT: City Link was the name I think - not even mentioned on timetables or LM's web site.
This is different from LM's Euston-Birmingham services run by the same stock, as they are clearly not the main services between these places.

 

[tbtc]

The general public would consider the main train service between two of England's biggest city-regions as "inter-city".
I appreciate the railway doesn't seem to at the moment.
LM does have a special name for these services (and Euston-Crewe) but it's such a memorable brand I can't remember what it is...
This is different from LM's Euston-Birmingham services run by the same stock, as they are clearly not the main services between these places.

The "Inter City" argument is a funny one, since there are clearly a lot of cities with direct services that lack any "Inter City" trains and a lot of towns that are connected by "Inter City" trains.

Diss is a town of only a few thousand but *only* gets "Inter City" trains AFAICR whilst cities like Bradford/ Sunderland hardly see any "Inter City" trains. How many "Inter City" services does Salford see?

I don't know where people draw the line (it was easier in BR days when sectorisation meant that you could clearly see that Manchester - Cardiff wasn't treated as "Inter City"), but can't see anyone on the railway claiming that status for the Liverpool - Birmingham service.

 

[cle]

Nope, it's a semi-fast (at best) regional service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would the term "Inter City" have signified a limited number of stations to be stopped at

 

[harz99]

there aren't a huge number of passengers travelling all the way up to Scotland from Manchester - most have got off by Preston.

Whilst that statement could be true specifically to Manchester pax, it is totally incorrect to infer these trains are not busy north of Preston because they are - I know I travel regularly on them to and from my home station of Lockerbie. Without seat reservations you often have a very good chance of standing for most of your journey.

 

[Whistler40145]

Why use 185s on the Blackpool North to York/Scarborough service when the majority of the route has a very low line speed.

 

[Darren R]

Why use 185s on the Blackpool North to York/Scarborough service when the majority of the route has a very low line speed.

Most of the route is relatively fast, and there are works in the pipeline to improve matters. Where there are low-speed sections they tend to be for fairly short distances (Farington Curve or Accrington for instance) and higher speed on either side. There are also some fairly hefty gradients in places. In other words - exactly the sort of line the 185s were built for. Their power and acceleration might improve journey times immensely.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Have the Class 185 units ever traversed the Copy Pit line ?

 

[Whistler40145]

I very much doubt Class 185s have traversed the Copy Pit line, unless Northern have had units loaned to them by FTPE.

Burnley Manchester Road to Hall Royd Junction could be faster.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed it is blindingly obvious, its like going into a supermarket at 10pm and complaining theres never any bread or milk on the shelves all day.

To be honest, I was on the 1146 BPN service from Piccadilly yesterday...

AND I watched the 1846 and 2046 services go, they were all a similar story. I think all those intending managed to get on, but my own journey was incredibly uncomfortable! The thing is, its just surprising how many people get off at Bolton! Walk out the front of the station and turn right down past Morrisons and you wouldn't see why anyone would want to live there.


I was also on the 1736 Man Vic to Bolton (the one that calls at Clifton) and it was horrendous after Salford Central too! But then, roughly the same level of crowding, but single 150 vs single 185. At least the latter was fairly cool!

 

[WatcherZero]

Mmm, could be the relative lack of suburban stations helping to serve the population of the town of Bolton with the rest all on the fringes or serving different communities that leads to that particular station being so well used.

However in my experience as a regular line user the Blackburn trains are always packed while the Blackpool ones are packed in the peaks and just have a comfortable loading the rest of the time, the main problem on the line being the number of passengers for Bolton itself taking up space on longer distance services rather than shorter ones and just all piling on the first available train meaning one that would leave a few minutes later has loads of room. Its painfully annoying if you have to board at Salford Crescent, you see these longer distance services go by with the guards preventing boarding as their dangerously overcrowded, pushing people in to close the doors Japanese style then you see a half empty Bolton train following knowing that most of the people on the first train will be getting off at Bolton anyway.

The last set of crowding figures I saw indicated that there was an average of around 80% loading compared to 90% on the Atherton line and factoring in the higher frequencies of the Bolton line there was far more room for growth there which led to planners believing Southport services should be diverted through Bolton swapping for the Wigan Terminators which would reduce the loading on the Southport services and allow more room for growth on them while also freeing up more room for Atherton users as they would no longer be carrying Southport passengers.

 

[Darren R]

The thing is, its just surprising how many people get off at Bolton! Walk out the front of the station and turn right down past Morrisons and you wouldn't see why anyone would want to live there.

Many of us who disembark at Bolton do not live there.....

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Disregarding the first-class arguments for the time being (trains are easily refurbished and refitted after all) I'd say that the Copy Pit line would be ideal for the 185s- They're comfortable but the wide doors would allow for shorter dwell-times than the 158s at places like Halifax and Hebden Bridge which see heavy commuter traffic from Leeds and York. Their power would be ideal for both the Caldervale and Copy Pit sections which have a number of rather steep gradients.

As for the problem of running diesels under the wires- fair enough both Blackpool-Farington Curve junction and Leeds-York will be wired, but that still leaves both the Scarborough line and the lengthy central section between Leeds and Farington Curve junction unwired. It's simply not possible to completely eradicate diesels running under OHL- to do this with Blackpool-Scarborough would mean running the Copy Pit line as a Leeds-Preston service and the Scarborough line as a shuttle from York. There are a fair number of passengers travelling from at least Preston to at least York on the current service. I can't see the sense in forcing those passengers to make at least one extra change just to satisfy the amateur bean-counters on this forum. Running a 400mile service with diesels under 250miles of catenary (London-Aberdeen) is rather wasteful but the same argument doesn't really apply to a 130or-so mile service under 40-50miles of wires, especially if those miles under the wires aren't consecutive, as would be the case with Blackpool-York/beyond.

 

[Howardh]

:cry:
Early December onwards;
Now the new shiny Transpennine Electric trains will go from Manchester to the north via Wigan and Preston and back so we're losing a substantial number of services from Bolton > Piccadilly - especially in the evenings. The BON - Oxford Rd/Picc at 8 mins past the hour in the evenings has gone - so there are just two trains an hour after 6.30pm '13 and '35. Awful now for getting to evening sports and events south of the city centre. Thanks, timetabellers.

Wonder if those trains will come back if ever Man/Bon/Pre is electrified??

 

[YorkshireBear]

:cry:
Early December onwards;
Now the new shiny Transpennine Electric trains will go from Manchester to the north via Wigan and Preston and back so we're losing a substantial number of services from Bolton > Piccadilly - especially in the evenings. The BON - Oxford Rd/Picc at 8 mins past the hour in the evenings has gone - so there are just two trains an hour after 6.30pm '13 and '35. Awful now for getting to evening sports and events south of the city centre. Thanks, timetabellers.

Wonder if those trains will come back if ever Man/Bon/Pre is electrified??

No they will not come back but are likely to be replaced as stock allows. There is logic in the decision as Bolton and Chorley commuters were taking up valuable space on long distance services, shame DfT are not providing Northern with stock to plug the gap.

 

[Howardh]

Don't want to go to Victoria and then take the tram (as and when it turns up) to get to the south of the city centre, and it goes nowhere near Oxford Road anyway. Really naffed off tonight!!!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Don't want to go to Victoria and then take the tram (as and when it turns up) to get to the south of the city centre, and it goes nowhere near Oxford Road anyway. Really naffed off tonight!!!

Then catch the services that go to Oxford road then, there are several left...

 

[Howardh]

Then catch the services that go to Oxford road then, there are several left...

No there aren't. Two an hour. That's not "several". :cry:

 

[Eagle]

Two an hour, down from slightly less than three an hour?

 

[YorkshireBear]

No there aren't. Two an hour. That's not "several". :cry:

I consider it several.

 

[dannypye9999]

Now chat moss route has been electricfied do you think Northern may extend some of their EMU class 323s beyond Manchester? It might free up some DMUs as well as free up some platforms at Manchester Picc.

 

[Eagle]

No on all counts.

First: the line so far is only electrified as far as Earlestown, and there aren't any Northern services that only go that far, so you wouldn't be replacing any DMUs, only providing extra services.

Second: Northern don't have enough slack in their EMU fleet to do that. They don't even have enough EMUs to cover all their existing electric services, and if they did, then there would be enough DMUs to do what they need to do and it wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

Third: doing that would actually reduce capacity at Piccadilly by taking a service from the bay platforms, which have plenty of space, and forcing it through the highly congested p13/14.

 

[Thomas6187]

Northern don't have enough 323 to run extra service. They haven't even got enough to run certain service which should run with a 323

 

[Philip]

It appears the 17:00 Man Airport to Glasgow being routed via Bolton is only a short term measure, up to February. From then onwards the service will be re-routed via Chat Moss and a brand new service will start, this being 17:13 Manchester Oxford Road to Windermere via Bolton if I read it correctly. Seems a bit odd to start it at Oxford Road, will it go off platform 5?