Manchester - Blackpool & Scotland TPEx Changes

[Philip]

I think the Class 185 units that would be released after the electrification projects has been completed should be used on strengthening the existing Class 185 services.

Since the Class 175 units do not have a first-class section, do I take it from your proposal to use these on services to either Barrow-in-Furness or to Windermere will reflect the lack of such a demand for first-class travel on either of these two services ?

Yep, because first class only arrived on this route in 2007 when the 185s replaced the 175s. The 185 and its first class section was intended to replace the actual transpennine route stock which already had first class. As Barrow/Blackpool services were part of the same franchise they put the 185s on these routes to end the sub-leasing arrangement with ATW for 175s and along came first class. I don't think this route warrants first class any more so than Liverpool to Man Airport or Liverpool to Blackpool does. Capacity is the main concern for regional express Manchester to Preston services and the 3-carriage 185 with FC was a step down in capacity to the 3-car 175 it replaced.

I work in a booking office on the Marches route and quite a few passengers ask for first class to Cardiff and are surprised to hear there isn't any.

Also on the first point; with no corridor connectors on 185s I don't see TPE being too keen on doubling up that many 185s because of the inevitable loss of revenue on ticket sales, nor can they have 2 guards per train in many instances. Would some platforms need to be extended to accommodate 6 coaches?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why not ask FGW if they have any spare stock to help ATW on Welsh routes?

We don't have much decent stock in Northern-land (the Elephant's Graveyard equivalent of the Class 142 Pacer fleet) and it really annoys me to see other TOC casting covetous eyes on what decent stock we do have..

 

[Eagle]

Why not ask FGW if they have any spare stock to help ATW on Welsh routes?

FGW are having to hire in units (they have a semi-permanent loan of a SWT 158, and they're looking to procure some loco-hauled stock again in the future). They don't have spare stock at the moment, and probably won't until GWML electrification is done.

 

[Darren R]

Better idea yet - if there is a demand for first class on those services then ATW could always so something about it themselves....perhaps aided and abetted by the Welsh Government? (That's a more polite way of saying 'bog off - if the Welsh want 1st class on their trains then the WAG can pay for it!' )

There are more pressing needs for the released 185s than enabling 1st class on Manchester - Cardiff trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Whatever new routes the 185s are used on, the First Class policy will need to change.
Either the new routes get First where they don't get it now (eg Calder Valley), or the 185s are reconfigured to remove it.

Just doodling, there should be about 30x185s released by EMUs eventually.
This would leave Middlesbrough/Scarborough as shuttles from York, and Barrow from Lancaster.
30x185s could convert (for example) all the Calder Valley services via Hebden Bridge, together with both Southport services out of Manchester, to 185 operation.
That would in itself bring into play the TOC split between TPE and Northern.
There will also be some 170s spare as they won't be working across the Pennines.
No doubt South TPE will be boosted as well.
But does DfT want 100mph First Class-fitted 185s running on these new routes, or might they be better suited to (say) Bristol-Portsmouth or Glasgow-Aberdeen, or (as noted above) Cardiff-Manchester?

Another factor with 185s is the restriction on using "SP" speeds.
They would be limited to 75mph on many routes where class 158/175 can do 90 (eg Crewe-Craven Arms).

The main factor keeping them in the North is the dedicated depot at Ardwick.
It would be costly to replicate that somewhere else.

 

[Boothby97]

There is talk of electrifying the Windermere branch (it was brought up on the WNXX forum)
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/electric-route-for-lake-district

Plans unveiled to to allow electric trains to run on 10 miles of route between Oxenholme Lake District station and Windermere station.

Electric trains could soon be serving destinations in the heart of the Lake District as Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin unveiled his plans to electrify the Windermere branch line in Cumbria.
The government is keen for the 10 miles of track, which runs between Oxenholme Lake District station on the West Coast Main Line and Windermere station in the National Park, to be converted to allow electric trains to run on the route.
Once the proposed £16 million scheme is agreed faster, greener more reliable electric trains could link Kendal, Burneside and Staveley directly to Manchester by 2016.
Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin:
This is a key line to one of the most important tourist areas in the UK and I believe the rail industry has a role in making sure more people can travel comfortably to enjoy the beautiful lakes
I recognise that strong rail links across the country are important drivers in our economic recovery at a national and regional level that is why we are pushing ahead with the biggest programmes of rail electrification ever.
Last year the government announced the biggest programme of rail electrification ever including plans electrifying Manchester to Liverpool and Manchester to Bolton routes by 2016.
Subject to the business case confirming the project provides good value for money, Network Rail will be asked to undertake the work in conjunction with other North West rail electrification projects.
Network Rail will be responsible for completing the work and will develop detailed plans in conjunction with the passenger train operators that use the line and the local authorities along the route.
The rail industry recognises the importance of the National Park environment and the value of visitors using the railway and these factors will be taken into account in the electrification plans and works.
A new timetable will be considered as part of the new Northern and Transpennine franchises, both of which will commence in February 2016.

Thanks, Sam

 

[swt_passenger]

There is talk of electrifying the Windermere branch (it was brought up on the WNXX forum)
Thanks, Sam

There's a whole thread on it here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=88053

 

[Boothby97]

There's a whole thread on it here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=88053

Apologies, hadn't seen that, thanks for directing me there
Thanks, Sam

 

[Darren R]

Whatever new routes the 185s are used on, the First Class policy will need to change.
Either the new routes get First where they don't get it now (eg Calder Valley), or the 185s are reconfigured to remove it.

Just doodling, there should be about 30x185s released by EMUs eventually.
This would leave Middlesbrough/Scarborough as shuttles from York, and Barrow from Lancaster.
30x185s could convert (for example) all the Calder Valley services via Hebden Bridge, together with both Southport services out of Manchester, to 185 operation.
That would in itself bring into play the TOC split between TPE and Northern.
There will also be some 170s spare as they won't be working across the Pennines.
No doubt South TPE will be boosted as well.
But does DfT want 100mph First Class-fitted 185s running on these new routes, or might they be better suited to (say) Bristol-Portsmouth or Glasgow-Aberdeen, or (as noted above) Cardiff-Manchester?

Another factor with 185s is the restriction on using "SP" speeds.
They would be limited to 75mph on many routes where class 158/175 can do 90 (eg Crewe-Craven Arms).

The main factor keeping them in the North is the dedicated depot at Ardwick.
It would be costly to replicate that somewhere else.

The current plan for the Scraborough trains post electrification is that they be tagged onto the Blackpool North - York runs. This could also be a route that would benefit by the introduction of displaced 185s.

You're right about 1st class though; it would need re-configuring. Personally I'm not convinced that taking up part of a 3-coach dmu with First Class was justified in the first place - not on the actual Trans-Pennine routes anyway. (The Airport - Scotland services not withstanding.) It would be better to de-classify them in the short term, until their next major refurb when the 1st class would be re-configured. Can't imagine there'd be much call for 1st class returns from Mytholmroyd!

Lest we get too carried away about the fate of the 185s though, don't forget that depends upon They Who Must Be Obeyed at the DfT. They could end up anywhere!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can't imagine there'd be much call for 1st class returns from Mytholmroyd!

Oh, I don't know about that. There have been some influx of executive homes in recent years and when I had a look at the property market there recently, there were a goodly amount of properties with a price of over £400,000.

There are railway stations that have no first-class availability on its services where many of the properties have values running into SEVEN figures...just look at my home station of Prestbury, for example....:cry:

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The current plan for the Scraborough trains post electrification is that they be tagged onto the Blackpool North - York runs. This could also be a route that would benefit by the introduction of displaced 185s.

You're right about 1st class though; it would need re-configuring. Personally I'm not convinced that taking up part of a 3-coach dmu with First Class was justified in the first place - not on the actual Trans-Pennine routes anyway. (The Airport - Scotland services not withstanding.) It would be better to de-classify them in the short term, until their next major refurb when the 1st class would be re-configured. Can't imagine there'd be much call for 1st class returns from Mytholmroyd!

Lest we get too carried away about the fate of the 185s though, don't forget that depends upon They Who Must Be Obeyed at the DfT. They could end up anywhere!

Oh, I don't know about that. There have been some influx of executive homes in recent years and when I had a look at the property market there recently, there were a goodly amount of properties with a price of over £400,000.

There are railway stations that have no first-class availability on its services where many of the properties have values running into SEVEN figures...just look at my home station of Prestbury, for example....:cry:

The current Blackpool-York service doesn't call at Mytholmroyd anyway (unless there's a couple of calls added in the peaks)!

I'd imagine there may be some aspiration (particularly if TPEx and Northern are merged at the next round of franchising) to upgrade certain 'semi-fast' services currently under Northern- especially if there's an influx of 185s with 1st class already fitted.
Blackpool-Scarborough would be a viable candidate for this (alongside say Leeds-Nottingham and Leeds-Carlisle) providing the extra weight of the 185s doesn't cause too many problems.

 

[northwichcat]

Oh, I don't know about that. There have been some influx of executive homes in recent years and when I had a look at the property market there recently, there were a goodly amount of properties with a price of over £400,000.

There are railway stations that have no first-class availability on its services where many of the properties have values running into SEVEN figures...just look at my home station of Prestbury, for example....:cry:

But would the business people use the local train if First Class was introduced?

With places like Mobberley the business people living there drive to Wilmslow or Crewe to pick up direct Intercity services to/from London. They aren't bothered about using the train to go to Manchester as they just drive all the way.

Even RUGs in Cheshire which usually include some retired business people as members aren't pushing for First Class to be reintroduced on local trains.

I think the best way forward is for better standard class seating so you get something like the class 175 seats which would make standard class much more attractive opposed to introducing a small section of First Class, for which there is a premium charge and the seats may only be a slight improvement on standard class e.g. same seats but with a bit more padding.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The current plan for the Scraborough trains post electrification is that they be tagged onto the Blackpool North - York runs. This could also be a route that would benefit by the introduction of displaced 185s.

I can't see Scarborough-Blackpool continuing with DMUs with 45 miles of wiring on the route.
The GW ITT asked for bidders to "maximise the electric operation of the route" in their plans (not that we saw any, as the bids were never submitted).
This is partly to maximise the cascade of DMUs to other lines.
So why contemplate any Leeds-York and Preston-Blackpool DMU operation?

As well as the Huddersfield route shouldn't we be going for electric services across Leeds like York-Bradford FS/Skipton?
Blackpool-York could go electric via Manchester leaving a Preston-Blackburn-Leeds DMU shuttle.

I guess it all depends what electric stock will be available.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't see Scarborough-Blackpool continuing with DMUs with 45 miles of wiring on the route.
The GW ITT asked for bidders to "maximise the electric operation of the route" in their plans (not that we saw any, as the bids were never submitted).
This is partly to maximise the cascade of DMUs to other lines.
So why contemplate any Leeds-York and Preston-Blackpool DMU operation?

As well as the Huddersfield route shouldn't we be going for electric services across Leeds like York-Bradford FS/Skipton?
Blackpool-York could go electric via Manchester leaving a Preston-Blackburn-Leeds DMU shuttle.

I guess it all depends what electric stock will be available.

It was the same Network Rail Draft RUS which recommended Scarborough-Blackpool DMU which suggested South TPE would be split at Doncaster if Hazel Grove-Sheffield was wired. So presumably Network Rail identified that's there more need for a direct Yorkshire-Blackpool service than for a Lincolnshire-Manchester service. Any splitting of service or changing to calling patterns depends on business case put foward which depends on a lot more than just maximum use of OHEs.

Also don't forget that the post-North TPE electrification illustrative example includes an hourly Piccadilly-Hull diesel service with Selby-Hull electrification not being confirmed and not being likely until CP6 even if it does get confirmed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It was the same Network Rail Draft RUS which recommended Scarborough-Blackpool DMU which suggested South TPE would be split at Doncaster if Hazel Grove-Sheffield was wired. So presumably Network Rail identified that's there more need for a Yorkshire-Blackpool service than for a Lincolnshire-Manchester service. Any splitting of service or changing to calling patterns depends on business case put before which depends on a lot more than just maximum use of OHEs.

Would on the same basis you recommend cutting direct links between North Wales and Manchester based on the fact splitting the service at Warrington would make better use of OHE?

I was only being devil's advocate, but I think some awkward service decisions will need to be made.
If Warrington-Manchester had 6tph like York-Leeds there would be a case for turning DMUs round there.
It is a little odd that in a few months we will have an electric route Warrington-Manchester, but no trains bothering to use it.

And we seem to be putting the wires up (everywhere!) before producing the business case.
I have read the RUS and it paints useful options, but NR don't specify franchise services.
As of today, I don't really know who does!

 

[northwichcat]

If Warrington-Manchester had 6tph like York-Leeds there would be a case for turning DMUs round there.
It is a little odd that in a few months we will have an electric route Warrington-Manchester, but no trains bothering to use it.

I was getting distracted while writing a reply and didn't mean to put that. I was going to suggest if Chester-Warrington was wired would you support truncating services at Chester or running Mid-Cheshire diesel services through to North Wales but changed my mind and removed the comment rather than rewriting it.

I have read the RUS and it paints useful options, but NR don't specify franchise services.
As of today, I don't really know who does!

From what I understand services have to remain exactly how they are unless an approval for a revision is granted by ORR.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

From what I understand services have to remain exactly how they are unless an approval for a revision is granted by ORR.

Only until the current franchises/lease agreements expire.
I do hope somebody is developing a master plan somewhere.

I used to use the CLC line a lot (into Chester Northgate).
It has always been the poor relation, and seems to have slipped further in infrastructure terms over the years.
There used to be some through services to Rhyl and beyond, on Sundays if I remember right.
Recently, of course, Arriva has been diverting this way regularly while Chat Moss/WCML work has been in progress.
It's a little weird on a Chester-Manchester Airport ATW run to find yourself passing Northenden, almost within earshot of the airport, before looping through Stockport, Piccadilly and Gatley to reach The Station about an hour later...

More general rerouting or through running doesn't seem likely with the current franchise boundaries.

 

[northwichcat]

It has always been the poor relation, and seems to have slipped further in infrastructure terms over the years.

If you find some historic 1960s timetables you'll find hourly Wrexham-Manchester services via Altrincham and Sale and also a peak time Sale-Manchester DMU/EMU frequency that was more frequent than Metrolink is in the morning peak now.

There used to be some through services to Rhyl and beyond, on Sundays if I remember right.

There were. Some people say that was only for one timetabling period to do with engineering works but I'm sure there were some Altrincham-Rhyl Sunday services under FNW even when the Warrington line was open but that did end before the FNW franchise was split.

There was also a booked class 175 diagram on a morning service when run Chester-Altrincham-Manchester-Warrington-Llandudno, which was the service most Manchester commuters from the Northwich and Knutsford areas used so as you can imagine that went down very well with commuters.

It's a little weird on a Chester-Manchester Airport ATW run to find yourself passing Northenden, almost within earshot of the airport, before looping through Stockport, Piccadilly and Gatley to reach The Station about an hour later...

More general rerouting or through running doesn't seem likely with the current franchise boundaries.

If the western Airport link gets built in CP6 then it could mean something like one of the Calder Vale services could run onwards from the Airport towards Northwich and run through to Chester and North Wales which should allow a journey like Rhyl to Manchester Airport to be done in under 90 minutes (assuming a direct train not calling at every station.)

 

[Philip]

Still think sending dispalced 185s on Manchester-Cardiff runs is better than having them work York-Blackpool. Manchester to Cardiff is an intercity route and is as justified having a first class option as Manchester to Scotland is. Depot allocation shouldn't be a problem either - Ardwick is on the line of route and Cardiff Canton could be used as a satellite depot. What's wrong with continuing to use 158s on York-Blackpool?

 

[northwichcat]

Still think sending dispalced 185s on Manchester-Cardiff runs is better than having them work York-Blackpool. Manchester to Cardiff is an intercity route and is as justified having a first class option as Manchester to Scotland is. Depot allocation shouldn't be a problem either - Ardwick is on the line of route and Cardiff Canton could be used as a satellite depot. What's wrong with continuing to use 158s on York-Blackpool?

By the time the 185s are released from North TPE they'll be around 12 years ago so a mid-life refurbishment which gives them all standard class shouldn't be out of the question. The TPE 170s had half the first class seats replaced by standard class seats when they were half that age.

If you keep the FC section and put them on Manchester-South Wales services then you won't increase standard class capacity by very much over what it is on the 2 car 158s and 2 car 175s.

More to the point what stock is going to run South TPE if the 185s go to ATW or are you proposing 2 micro-fleets of 185s?

 

[Philip]

By the time the 185s are released from North TPE they'll be around 12 years ago so a mid-life refurbishment which gives them all standard class shouldn't be out of the question. The TPE 170s had half the first class seats replaced by standard class seats when they were half that age.

If you keep the FC section and put them on Manchester-South Wales services then you won't increase standard class capacity by very much over what it is on the 2 car 158s and 2 car 175s.

More to the point what stock is going to run South TPE if the 185s go to ATW or are you proposing 2 micro-fleets of 185s?

2 micro fleets, both operating out of Ardwick - they could possibly also run EMT services to Norwich off Ardwick if the full fleet of 51 is available from cascading. Only 8 or 9 185s would be required to run a self contained Manchester to Cardiff service, with the west Wales bit starting/terminating at Cardiff.

 

[WatcherZero]

By the time the 185s are released from North TPE they'll be around 12 years ago so a mid-life refurbishment which gives them all standard class shouldn't be out of the question. The TPE 170s had half the first class seats replaced by standard class seats when they were half that age.

I wondered about the practicality of fitting corridor connections during their midlife refurb ala the 380's. Heck if you could even remove two cabs and reform them as permanent 6 car DMU's they would have a lot of demand, could even reallocate the first class to the first 1.5 carriages.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wondered about the practicality of fitting corridor connections during their midlife refurb ala the 380's. Heck if you could even remove two cabs and reform them as permanent 6 car DMU's they would have a lot of demand, could even reallocate the first class to the first 1.5 carriages.

Now that is what I call a most imaginative posting indeed. What a very good idea.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But would the business people use the local train if First Class was introduced? I think the best way forward is for better standard class seating so you get something like the class 175 seats which would make standard class much more attractive opposed to introducing a small section of First Class, for which there is a premium charge and the seats may only be a slight improvement on standard class e.g. same seats but with a bit more padding.

There is the matter that the First Class 2+1 seating affords more visual spaciousness than 2+2 seating, which I personally find to be a drawback when I have to use rolling stock with no First Class accommodation such as the Class 175 units (mentioned in your quote above) when travelling from Wilmslow to Hereford.

 

[northwichcat]

There is the matter that the First Class 2+1 seating affords more visual spaciousness than 2+2 seating, which I personally find to be a drawback when I have to use rolling stock with no First Class accommodation such as the Class 175 units (mentioned in your quote above) when travelling from Wilmslow to Hereford.

Specifying an operator has to provide First Class doesn't mean you'll get 2+1 seating though. Coach D on the Virgin Voyagers gets used as First Class on Chester/Holyhead services but has 2+2 seating while I think LM and Southern only offer 2+2 seating in First Class just like prior to TPE getting 185s FC was 2+2.

I remember someone posting on here that when Vernon Barker was asked about the comfort of standard class seating on the 185s his response was the standard class seats on the 185s were the same as first class seats on SWT's 450s.

Of course the 175 interior was specified for the FNW routes, the longest of which was Birmingham-Holyhead at 3 hours 45. Manchester to Milford Haven is 6 hours.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I remember someone posting on here that when Vernon Barker was asked about the comfort of standard class seating on the 185s his response was the standard class seats on the 185s were the same as first class seats on SWT's 450s.

Of course the 175 interior was specified for the FNW routes, the longest of which was Birmingham-Holyhead at 3 hours 45. Manchester to Milford Haven is 6 hours.

I mentioned the Class 175 units and the Wilmslow to Hereford journey with no First Class accommodation as a comparison to the 2+1 First Class (15 seat) accommodation made available on the First TPE Class 185 service that my wife used for five years on a bi-monthly basis on her direct journey from Manchester Airport to Durham for committee meetings. I understand that particular direct service will soon be just a memory from the past once the new Liverpool to Newcastle service is commenced.

Both those journeys are quite some length in time, travel-wise.

 

[tbtc]

Well it's purely an idea thought up by myself but I was thinking perhaps one idea to increase capacity once the North TPE route is electrified in 3-4 years would be to send the spare 185s (released from Liverpool-Newcastle diagrams) to the Marches and have them on a revised Manchester-Cardiff service. Cardiff-West Wales would have its own separate regional service operated by 158s and 175s. This would enable first class on the route and would increase the number of carriages, as currently the service has a mixture of 2 and 3 car units. Also journey times could be shortened slightly with the quicker acceleration of 185.

In turn, this would free up 6 or 7 175s which could then be used to operate a new hourly Manchester Piccadilly-Barrow/Windermere service, run by Northern or whoever has it then, also with the possibility of a new hourly Oxford Road/Victoria-Bolton shuttle service as well as the Windermere-Oxenholme shuttle (again using 175s). They could still come off Alstom at Chester in the morning and work an existing ECS move to Manchester doubled up with another 175 bound for a Llandudno diagram.

Nice idea?

Most of these lines are going to be electrified in a few years time (allowing EMUs to run from Manchester to Windermere), so I don't think there's much point in coming up with a complicated solution to a short term problem

I was only being devil's advocate, but I think some awkward service decisions will need to be made

There will - at the moment the north of England has a lot of long-ish distance routes that connect places with no significant "end to end" demand (e.g. Liverpool to Scarborough) - to make electrification work so that we don't continue to run DMUs long distances under wires, we'll need to take some tough decisions about cutting some routes.

As an example, I think that there's sufficient Leeds - Scarborough demand to justify the retention of some through service, but maybe that could be the Blackpool North service via Burnley instead?

The people of Middlesbrough probably wouldn't be happy to lose their Manchester service, though retaining a direct Leeds service is obviously more important. Maybe Middlesbrough and Scarborough could retain an hourly service to Manchester but via the Calder Valley route (thus retaining the direct link, and the Halifax/ Bradford link to York)? Then again, Sunderland lost its direct services to Leeds/ Manchester etc when the TPE franchise was set up, so there is precedent.

I can imagine the complaints on here already...

Manchester to Cardiff is an intercity route and is as justified having a first class option

What determines an "intercity route" though?

In BR terms, Manchester to Cardiff was "Provincial" or "Regional Railways".

If "Intercity" is taken to mean a service that links two urban areas with "city" status then there are loads of services out there that link such places without the trimmings of First Class etc. Is Manchester to Salford "intercity"?

In fact, some cities see very little in the way of First Class (Sunderland, Bradford etc).

 

[Philip]

I'm not talking about the 'intercity' brand from years ago, more just realistic nature of the route. In terms of long distance, high revenue earning routes out of Manchester I would place Cardiff up there with London, Birmingham, Glasgow and Edinburgh and yet it's the only one not to have first class. Yet Manchester to Leeds and Sheffield do even though it reduces overall capacity on two already very busy services.

 

[northwichcat]

In terms of long distance, high revenue earning routes out of Manchester I would place Cardiff up there with London, Birmingham, Glasgow and Edinburgh and yet it's the only one not to have first class.

With Birmingham and London. Really?

 

[tbtc]

I'm not talking about the 'intercity' brand from years ago, more just realistic nature of the route. In terms of long distance, high revenue earning routes out of Manchester I would place Cardiff up there with London, Birmingham, Glasgow and Edinburgh and yet it's the only one not to have first class. Yet Manchester to Leeds and Sheffield do even though it reduces overall capacity on two already very busy services.

It's an hourly service with a two/three coach DMU (and no large intermediate places between Manchester and South Wales).

There are plenty of routes around Manchester that could potentially justify First Class, whether to posh commuter areas like the Cheshire or to other cities in "the north" like Bradford, but where do you draw the line?

 

[Philip]

With Birmingham and London. Really?

Ok so I've exaggerated a bit there but behind them I'd say it's easily in the next band down alongside Scotland.