Man Picc to Man Picc

[HMS Ark Royal]

Whilst reviewing some things on Real Time Trains, I spotted this odd service

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y35106/2015/10/05/advanced

Can anybody name or suggest a service like this - where the start and finish point are the exact same place? Both NRE and Northern's ticket fare calculators flag this up as invalid when attempting to purchase a ticket, although a tweet to Northern's rail team suggests buying a ticket to Hadfield.

 

[Bayum]

Most, if not all the services to Hadfield and Glossop have their destination as Manchester Piccadilly. It's not just for one particular service in the day!

 

[Crossover]

Odd - for most of the day, trains normally run to Hadfield via a reversal at Glossop with morning and evening peak services doing the round robin trip (morning peak Dinting - Hadfield - Glossop - Dinting and evening peak Dinting - Glossop - Hadfield - Dinting, IIRC) to provide a service over all 3 sides of the triangle.

Not sure why for the next couple of months, most of the service for the day are due to run a round robin service all day

 

[87015]

Not sure why for the next couple of months, most of the service for the day are due to run a round robin service all day

Leaffall PPM figure fiddling, means only one service fails when it goes wrong not two...

 

[Crossover]

Can anybody name or suggest a service like this - where the start and finish point are the exact same place?

There are a few in London - Hounslow Loop and Kingston Loop are two that spring to mind, out of Waterloo.

There are a handful of "Javelin" services each day which run from and to St Pancras International, via the Kent Coast

Scotland also has the Cathcart Circle which starts and terminates at Glasgow Central and used to have Waverley to Waverley (or Newcraighall) via the Fife Circle - but these were split at Glenrothes a while ago now
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Leaffall PPM figure fiddling, means only one service fails when it goes wrong not two...

I did wonder if leaf fall season may have something to do with it!

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Most, if not all the services to Hadfield and Glossop have their destination as Manchester Piccadilly. It's not just for one particular service in the day!

I know that... What I mean though is that this is the only one that appears in that format.

Crossover, do the services using the lines you suggested involve one having to get off the train at any point?

 

[berneyarms]

I know that... What I mean though is that this is the only one that appears in that format.

Crossover, do the services using the lines you suggested involve one having to get off the train at any point?

All the trains during the day appear in that format:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/HDF/2015/10/05/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

The examples quoted in the post above are all through workings - the train operates London Waterloo-Hounslow Loop-London Waterloo for example. You don't have to get off the train.

There are also workings out of London Cannon Street that are circular workings (same origin and destination).

 

[PHILIPE]

Chester to Chester Merseyrail trains and others on the "circular" route.

 

[185143]

Most, if not all the services to Hadfield and Glossop have their destination as Manchester Piccadilly. It's not just for one particular service in the day!

I know that... What I mean though is that this is the only one that appears in that format.

Crossover, do the services using the lines you suggested involve one having to get off the train at any point?

no. You don't have to alight from the train at all, even if it terminates at Hadfield.

 

[Tomnick]

Leaffall PPM figure fiddling, means only one service fails when it goes wrong not two...

I'm normally equally cynical, but in this case I think there might be a bit more to it. Presumably running each train Manc - Glossop - Hadfield - Glossop - Manc would be quite tight if they're all losing a bit of time around the triangle, with the risk of knocking the next one before it even gets to Dinting (and so on).

 

[D6975]

I'm normally equally cynical, but in this case I think there might be a bit more to it. Presumably running each train Manc - Glossop - Hadfield - Glossop - Manc would be quite tight if they're all losing a bit of time around the triangle, with the risk of knocking the next one before it even gets to Dinting (and so on).

I think this is a regular thing during leaf fall. It gives a bit more flexibility in the timings, not to fiddle the numbers, more to try to run the service to time so as not to cause pathing problems at the Picc end.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I think this is a regular thing during leaf fall. It gives a bit more flexibility in the timings, not to fiddle the numbers, more to try to run the service to time so as not to cause pathing problems at the Picc end.

This. It saves about 12 minutes missing out 1 of the Glossops and you get waiting time at Guide Bridge to get back to the correct timings. Happens every year.

 

[Tomnick]

That's what I mean. There's no point planning to serve Glossop both ways if they're going to lose so much time doing so that it immediately knocks onto the next one (which won't take much).

 

[Greybeard33]

This. It saves about 12 minutes missing out 1 of the Glossops and you get waiting time at Guide Bridge to get back to the correct timings. Happens every year.

That's what I mean. There's no point planning to serve Glossop both ways if they're going to lose so much time doing so that it immediately knocks onto the next one (which won't take much).

If the leaf fall timetable were extended year round, the new Northern franchisee would be able to use sluggish 319s on the Hadfield line after the more sprightly 323s go to the Midlands.

The TSR accompanying the ITT does not require Glossop to be served both ways, only that Glossop and Hadfield should each have at least one service per week direct from Dinting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can anybody name or suggest a service like this - where the start and finish point are the exact same place? Both NRE and Northern's ticket fare calculators flag this up as invalid when attempting to purchase a ticket, although a tweet to Northern's rail team suggests buying a ticket to Hadfield.

You'd need a return to either of Glossop or Hadfield. Anything else would involve a double-back.

 

[rick9525]

Increasing the 10mph, painfully slow, speed limit over the Dinting Triangle would be a good start to help timings.

 

[Greybeard33]

Increasing the 10mph, painfully slow, speed limit over the Dinting Triangle would be a good start to help timings.

And is it really necessary to have four station calls in two miles between Flowery Field and Hattersley?

 

[rick9525]

And is it really necessary to have four station calls in two miles between Flowery Field and Hattersley?

When they took out Gorton as a stop for most trains this did not have any effect on reducing the travel time which going via Glossop from Hadfield to Picadilly which is a mind numbing 43 mins. I hope that when the Northen Hub is finished we will benefit with faster pathing through Guide Bridge to Picadilly.

 

[Greybeard33]

When they took out Gorton as a stop for most trains this did not have any effect on reducing the travel time which going via Glossop from Hadfield to Picadilly which is a mind numbing 43 mins. I hope that when the Northen Hub is finished we will benefit with faster pathing through Guide Bridge to Picadilly.

Network Rail's Route Specifications 2015: London North Western lists the following improvements planned for 2019 in Strategic Route Section H.29, Guide Bridge - Glossop/Hadfield:

Speed:
Raise linespeed to highest possible in line with
infrastructure characteristics and capability of
rolling stock.
Typical journey time:
Aspiration for improved journey times in the short
term by remodelling timetable, calling and
destination patterns with amended operating
instructions.
Also improved line speeds gained by track and
signalling interventions.
No. of trains per hour:
Additional three car peak service. Proposal to run
four tph with alternate departures to Hadfield and
Glossop. This requires Line speed improvements/
Journey time improvements around the Dinting
area coupled with amended alternate stopping
patterns and cannot be implemented until the
capacity becomes available between Guide Bridge
and Manchester Piccadilly when trains are re-routed
via Victoria.

The re-routing of TPE North trains to Manchester Airport via Victoria is, of course, dependent on completion of the Ordsall Chord.