Man arrested for using plug socket on Overground train

[DaleCooper]

It would have sorted out the terribly terribly dangerous trip hazard that everyone on here seems so worried about.

Wouldn't have done much for the ego-tripping PCSO though, admittedly.

Grow up.

 

[grumblingalong]

Are you suggesting that PCSOs do not have the power of arrest?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_arrest#United_Kingdom

None of which cover anything the man was dealt with for.

 

[PermitToTravel]

None of which cover anything the man was dealt with for.

You appear to be confused - the list is of laws giving PCSOs/other persons the right to arrest people; the one in question here is S24a PACE. A PCSO could have arrested the man for abstracting electricity if necessary.

 

[grumblingalong]

You appear to be confused - the list is of laws giving PCSOs/other persons the right to arrest people; the one in question here is S24a PACE. A PCSO could have arrested the man for abstracting electricity if necessary.

I'm talking actual arrest, not any citizens arrest style nonsense. I would love to see a section 24A arrest by a PCSO stand up in court, PACE code G would spit it straight back out.

In theory arrest for the basic offence possible yes, practice no. Arrest for abstraction by the PC after refusing to cooperate with PCSO makes for a whole new ball game, although the final arrest offence makes for the best case.

As we all know this actually has very little to do with abstraction, PCSO probably clutched at that one when challenged which is understandable, the actual offence was his attitude. And his hair.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I'm talking actual arrest, not any citizens arrest style nonsense. I would love to see a section 24A arrest by a PCSO stand up in court, PACE code G would spit it straight back out.

You're talking bollocks. PCSOs arrest people every day and there are no legal problems with this. BTP PCSOs even carry handcuffs

 

[island]

Let's get down to brass tacks.

The chap was nicked for being an arse to the PCSO. If he hadn't been an arse, he wouldn't have got nicked. Simple as.

Obviously that isn't an offence so they needed to find something he did that was an offence. But that's incidental.

 

[grumblingalong]

You're talking bollocks. PCSOs arrest people every day and there are no legal problems with this. BTP PCSOs even carry handcuffs

The point I'm making is that very very very rarely would abstraction ever be arrestable under pace code G necessity to arrest, it's something to be dealt with slow time. Any presentation of an arrest for abstraction would need a gold standard necessity to go even past the custody sgt. Never mind who or what made the actual arrest.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Let's get down to brass tacks.

The chap was nicked for being an arse to the PCSO. If he hadn't been an arse, he wouldn't have got nicked. Simple as.

Obviously that isn't an offence so they needed to find something he did that was an offence. But that's incidental.

Spot on, hence why the abstraction was dropped and he was actually taken to custody for something more substantial!

 

[Pinza-C55]

It is staggering that such a trivial incident can stretch to a 19 page thread.

 

[plymothian]

These days, the speed of outrage is faster than the speed of sound and light. And certainly the speed of fact.

And humans have now evolved senses: hearing, sight, smell, touch, taste, entitlement and disgust.

 

[Flamingo]

These days, the speed of outrage is faster than the speed of sound and light. And certainly the speed of fact.

And humans have now evolved senses: hearing, sight, smell, touch, taste, entitlement and disgust.

Yep, the Outrage Bus runs a regular service from here, calling at Hyperbole, Indignation, Exageration and Entitlement...

 

[455driver]

Yep, the Outrage Bus runs a regular service from here, calling at Hyperbole, Indignation, Exageration and Entitlement...

I thought it ran via Presumption and Assumption as well or is that the express service?

 

[HilversumNS]

The express service often detours via Plonkerland.

 

[meridian2]

But the Outrage Bus is powered by Unprofessional Fuel, delivered fresh from Self-Righteous Refinery by the Excessive Express Tankers.

 

[sarahj]

Alas, meanwhile the sensible service is stuck at a station as someone is holding the doors open going, ' but think of the children'.



In a way its all quite sad. The actual story is: 'man arrested on train for abusive language'.

But in this day of twitter, folks wanting to be 'famous', etc etc its exploded. Plus its handy for some railway bashing, which many, including a few on here, like to do. 'Look at that, I pay 1000's for my rail ticket and now they are doing people for stealing 0.0005 p of electricity on the trains'.

The police wont comment, due to trial matters.
The railways wont saying anything, or be drowned out.
Boris, who under his watch and place this happened, would never comment unless he could get a good 'sound bite', out of it that would make him look like a 'man of the people'.

Rant over.

Mind, this week I've not noticed anyone trying to plug their stuff in where they should not.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, whilst there are certain electrical issues with train sockets in particular, I still feel that any customer facing organisation worth its salt should be open to their customers requirements to charge their phones and computers.

It would be a shame indeed if this highly publicised occurrence emboldened companies to act like stingy gits in the future.

 

[Minilad]

Well, whilst there are certain electrical issues with train sockets in particular, I still feel that any customer facing organisation worth its salt should be open to their customers requirements to charge their phones and computers.

It would be a shame indeed if this highly publicised occurrence emboldened companies to act like stingy gits in the future.

I don't think its the matter of being stingy gits. It's all about not being sued for damages should the phone/computer get fried.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think its the matter of being stingy gits. It's all about not being sued for damages should the phone/computer get fried.

I can accept that on a train (as is the primary case discussed) however in terms of buildings, many of the better companies seem to get by with it, so why not Plymouth waiting room, for example.

 

[Minilad]

I can accept that on a train (as is the primary case discussed) however in terms of buildings, many of the better companies seem to get by with it, so why not Plymouth waiting room, for example.

Yeah the waiting room one seemed a bit of a rubbish thing to do

 

[sarahj]

Well, whilst there are certain electrical issues with train sockets in particular, I still feel that any customer facing organisation worth its salt should be open to their customers requirements to charge their phones and computers.

It would be a shame indeed if this highly publicised occurrence emboldened companies to act like stingy gits in the future.

Most companies are and new stock is now running on the southern and TL routes with sockets for punters at all seats. Re-wiring an old train to add this would cost a vast amount of money, and may not be that stable. When we got the 313's down here, they are re-wired to get passenger alarms, PIS systems and extra conductor panels. Adding this kit to the old system has made the new system, well not very good!!.

When the 377's down here were introduced, (about 15 years ago) there was not the demand on what are 1 hour off trips for power. Now phones etc are a lot more energy hungry and demand more charge. 2nd gen 377's had plugs in first class only, a nice bonus and perhaps a reason to upgrade.

Now we are at 7th gen and plugs are there for all. And now folks want wi-fi. all more power hungry kit, all more cost. But its coming, but with long lifetime of trains, its taking a while.

 

[tsr]

In response to a few points:

- Yes, some trains do have the option to turn off the cleaning/catering sockets from conductor panels or other easily accessible switch/MCB panels. Unfortunately this does not apply to all stock, including most if not all of the Electrostar family.

- I haven't seen as many people using cleaners' sockets recently, either. Just one this week. On that occasion, the person actually asked (sort-of jokingly) if they'd be arrested. Obviously I told them just how slim the chances of that were, but myself and a driver instead emphasised rather strongly that their equipment might melt, and how inconvenient that would be. It didn't stop them, but the message seemed to start to get through...

- I have seen a couple of people pay First Class upgrades recently to charge phones when sockets have been available there and nowhere else. Of course, I have no problem at all with that. It's their money!

 

[jon0844]

Well, whilst there are certain electrical issues with train sockets in particular, I still feel that any customer facing organisation worth its salt should be open to their customers requirements to charge their phones and computers.

I agree and it is happening as trains are refurbished and new ones are built, but I don't think 378s, S-Stock or any low level tube train is really suitable for power sockets (or even USB ports). I was quite surprised to hear that Arriva introduced a bus with power sockets, but presumably only by some seats and not near the doors or emergency exits?!

We may see the phone industry address battery issues one day too*, by taking advantage of miniaturisation to get the hardware inside a device right down in size, and to allow for a larger battery (rather than simply making the device thinner) but otherwise, portable battery packs are the simple answer to the problem for now. Cheap, light, very portable and a lot less of a security risk than having your phone charging on the floor or behind a seat, and all the other 'innovative' ways people are finding to charge devices these days.

* There's also improvements of the battery technology itself too, but that seems to be progressing extremely slowly.

 

[transmanche]

I was quite surprised to hear that Arriva introduced a bus with power sockets, but presumably only by some seats and not near the doors or emergency exits?!

As well as some Arriva Northumbria Sapphire buses, I noticed some (also with USB ports) on a Go North East Cobalt Clipper the other day. On both occasions I was upstairs.

But for trains with longitudinal seating (such as 378s, S-stock and tube stock) any kind of plug socket is going to be totally impractical.

 

[AM9]

As well as some Arriva Northumbria Sapphire buses, I noticed some (also with USB ports) on a Go North East Cobalt Clipper the other day. On both occasions I was upstairs.

Saw that on Thursday on a Blackpool 'Palladium' bus. Nice bus, wi-fi worked well, daft USB sockets underneath the seat in front. If the window passenger didn't notice a phone plugged in it would be ripped out of either the socket or the phone would go flying when they stand up to alight.

But for trains with longitudinal seating (such as 378s, S-stock and tube stock) any kind of plug socket is going to be totally impractical.

Especially as the average passenger's travelling time on Overground trains can't be much more than 20 mins, surely these phone junkies don't expect there to be charging facilities for that duration. I can imaging that if they insist on disobeying the notices, they might find them blocked by normal passengers, a bag or two, maybe a heavy boot.

 

[DaleCooper]

Especially as the average passenger's travelling time on Overground trains can't be much more than 20 mins, surely these phone junkies don't expect there to be charging facilities for that duration. I can imaging that if they insist on disobeying the notices, they might find them blocked by normal passengers, a bag or two, maybe a heavy boot.

Surely someone as important as Robin Lee should be allowed free travel back and forth until his phone is charged and should also be permitted to forcibly remove any obstruction preventing him from using the socket.

 

[Geezertronic]

It would have sorted out the terribly terribly dangerous trip hazard that everyone on here seems so worried about.

It would be terribly dangerous if someone had tipped onto it because some selfish idiot wanted to charge their phone using a plug socket they knew they should not use. How is to blame then? The PCSOs for not stopping him?

Wouldn't have done much for the ego-tripping PCSO though, admittedly.

Only ego I can see is from this idiot who thinks he can do what he wants when he wants. Have you actually heard this guys radio interviews? Maybe you'll re-think who has the ego if you did. He deserves everything he gets plus more

 

[strowger]

I'm loving all the "melting charger/bursts in to flames" posts.

If I had a standard mains socket that had voltage significantly over standard, it would be protected from the public by a damn sight more than a sign. And if it weren't and it hurt someone or their property, I'd expect to lose in court and potentially go to prison.

Either the danger is being seriously exaggerated or the normally ultra-risk-averse, spend £20million to save 1 life, railway has a strange socket-shaped hole in its risk assessments....

 

[Haydn1971]

If I had a standard mains socket that had voltage significantly over standard, it would be protected from the public by a damn sight more than a sign. And if it weren't and it hurt someone or their property, I'd expect to lose in court and potentially go to prison.

Quite - nothing technically should be stopping use of these sockets.

It may have been said earlier by others, but these "signed" sockets are generally seen near to places of easy access for cleaners, which just so happens to be where passengers walk and exit the train - thus anything plugged in during normal service becomes a trip hazard - that's the primary reason for banning use and to my mind, a very good reason.

 

[jon0844]

Instead of 'not for public use' stickers, why not one showing the full range of output to account for possible spikes.

Say 'Not surge protected: 230 - 50000 volts' or whatever, then someone might think again.

 

[sarahj]

Well, all I can say is that I've touched enough chargers plugged into these sockets to know most get scalding hot, not warm, but hot. Some after market chargers are not built to the highest standard either. I, myself would not use one of these sockets to charge my phone.

 

[Aictos]

Thing is on most EMUs these days especially on AC lines, you plug your phone into a power socket some idiots forget it's not just 240V behind that plug but anything up to 25,000V and it just takes a surge of power unexpectedly and you've got a dead charger.

It's different being at the depot hence why you have these stickers saying NOT FOR PUBLIC USE, the clue is in the title so I really can't understand why idiots can't read - if anything if they really have to charge their phones why not invest in a battery pack if they really must be glued to their phones 24/7.

With newer trains, yes they do have power sockets which are designed to be used for phones as do trains which has had them retro fitted but trains which clearly have signs saying not for public use shouldn't be used by public.

Indeed the railway byelaws is something certain members here ought to look at instead of mouthing off about ego chasing staff!

11. General Safety

(1) No person shall move, operate, obstruct, stop or in any other way interfere with any automatic closing door, train or any other equipment on the railway except:

(i) in an emergency, by means of any equipment on or near which there is
a notice indicating that it is intended to be used in an emergency; or

(ii) any equipment intended for the use of passengers in that way in normal operating circumstances.

12. Safety Instructions

(1) An Operator may issue reasonable instructions relating to safety on any
part of the railway by means of a notice on or near that part of the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such notice.

(2) An authorised person may, in an emergency or in other circumstances in
which he believes he should act in the interests of safety, issue instructions to any person on the railway. No person shall, without good cause, disobey such instructions
.
(3) No offence is committed under these Byelaws where a person acts in accordance with the notices or instructions given under Byelaw 12(1) or
12(2).

Now can these staff bashing forum members here still stand by their statements that the PCSO was on a ego chasing trip bearing in mind the railway byelaws quite clearly state they were in the right and that the passenger in question should have not used equipment clearly marked NOT for public use.

If the railway industry wishes to provide power sockets for public use then it's up to them and not up to idiots thinking they have a god given right to use them.