Maltese Cross / cross-London dagger

[hairyhandedfool]

Indeed they're not (mainly clerical staff IIRC) but even they'd have a better idea about the tickets than some of the LU staff. It should not be down to them to phone STP or CTK, that job should fall to the gateline staff if they can't work out the validity of tickets... as I said before if they're reluctant to even open the manual gate what chance is there of them phoning anyone?

All too true. Even Thameslink free travel passes didn't go through the barriers at Farringdon, even though they were supposed to.

Farringdon (BR) was always an RO2 (Rail Operator) grade when I was down that way, central London based ticket offices being CO2 (Clerical) grade.

 

[dan_atki]

All too true. Even Thameslink free travel passes didn't go through the barriers at Farringdon, even though they were supposed to.

FCC passes still do not work there although they work both the GN and TL sets of gates at Moorgate... work that one out.

 

[Edvid]

It was nice to see SER staff were up to scratch on my LUT-AFK CDR yesterday - well those who actually bothered to check my ticket in the first place. On the outbound leg I went to the manual gate at CHX but the attendant there left the gate wide open and didn't check tickets when I passed though, not even after someone asked him about a particular service (and he wasn't checked either). On the return leg I worked the automatic gates at CHX instead.

I didn't use that particular ticket for tube travel because I also needed to travel elsewhere within London (for which I bought an in-boundary Travelcard).

It also just occured to me that the said CDR fails the fare-check rule with West Hampstead Group as the northern routeing point. A YP-discounted CDR from WHP to AFK costs £14.35, but from anywhere between RDT and LEA it ranges from £9.90 to £13.20!

 

[dan_atki]

It also just occured to me that the said CDR fails the fare-check rule with West Hampstead Group as the northern routeing point. A YP-discounted CDR from WHP to AFK costs £14.35, but from anywhere between RDT and LEA it ranges from £9.90 to £13.20!

The fare check rule is only applied to situations where there are 2 routes from A to B (one via C and the other via D) as shown below and checks are done to C and D. As only one route exists (London stations being an intermediate routeing point) then this rule does not apply here.

          __________
    A    /    C     \    B
---------            --------
         \__________/
              D

Despite that, it shows the fluctuations in the fares offered both by Southeastern and First Capital Connect...

 

[Edvid]

Thank goodness for that.

One could even travel from Luton to Sturry for £13.20 with a valid Railcard - but any further and it jumps to over £20...

 

[yorkie]

It also just occured to me that the said CDR fails the fare-check rule with West Hampstead Group as the northern routeing point. A YP-discounted CDR from WHP to AFK costs £14.35

No it does not fail the rule because £14.35 is less than what you paid!!!

but from anywhere between RDT and LEA it ranges from £9.90 to £13.20!

No idea how/why RDT or LEA could come into it :-?:???:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The fare check rule is only applied to situations where there are 2 routes from A to B (one via C and the other via D) as shown below and checks are done to C and D. As only one route exists (London stations being an intermediate routeing point) then this rule does not apply here.

No idea what you are saying here. The fare check does apply, but the fares to be compared are Bedford, Watford and West Hampstead - all to Ashford, in order to determine which RPs are appropriate.

Using the old Avantix traveller, both Watford and West Hampstead appear to be valid routeing points as the fares from either of these places to Ashford is less than the fare from Luton to Ashford.

Ashford is a RP so no fare check needed at that end.

Oh, and don't forget the shortest route IS ALWAYS valid irrespective of any fare check rules or anything.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...Also many people complained that 'I'm getting the Circle line from St Pancras to Blackfriars anyway why can't I just get off at Tower Hill?' TfL rightly, I must add, issued penalty fares when customers did break their journey against the conditions on their ticket at non Thameslink stations.....

Tower Hill is a valid interchange with Fenchurch St, as is Aldgate. So anyone with a cross London transfer should automatically be allowed through the barriers at Tower Hill. If they had a specific Thameslink only ticket which did not include a London transfer then I suppose they may not be allowed to alight at Tower Hill but charging people £20 for that is petty and the practice should be ruled unlawful IMO.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thank goodness for that.

One could even travel from Luton to Sturry for £13.20 with a valid Railcard - but any further and it jumps to over £20...

Have FCC lowered some fares or something? In Avantix traveller from last year the CDR for LUT - STU is £18.50 :-?

 

[Tom C]

FCC passes still do not work there although they work both the GN and TL sets of gates at Moorgate... work that one out.

Mine does...........it also works at the Underground gates at KGX

 

[Edvid]

No it does not fail the rule because £14.35 is less than what you paid!!!

Errr...no. I paid £13.20 for my LUT-AFK CDR because I have a 16-25 Railcard; the price I quoted for a WHP-AFK CDR (£14.35) also includes that discount - hence why I said 'YP-discounted CDR' in my previous post (which you obviously missed).

Conversely the undiscounted prices are £20 and £21.70 respectively.

No idea how/why RDT or LEA could come into it :-?:???:

My point is that a CDR to/from WHP is more expensive than a CDR to/from anywhere between RDT and LEA inclusive (despite WHP being closer to AFK), which I assumed was in breach of the fare-check rule although I did not know that it required at least two routeing points on different routes in order to apply.

No idea what you are saying here. The fare check does apply, but the fares to be compared are Bedford, Watford and West Hampstead - all to Ashford, in order to determine which RPs are appropriate.

Using the old Avantix traveller, both Watford and West Hampstead appear to be valid routeing points as the fares from either of these places to Ashford is less than the fare from Luton to Ashford.

A WFJ-AFK CDR is actually even more expensive at £24.10 (£15.90 with Railcard discount).

Have FCC lowered some fares or something? In Avantix traveller from last year the CDR for LUT - STU is £18.50 :-?

Is that with or without a Railcard? The undiscounted price is currently £20.

In case you've forgotten about the unusually low prices from AFK to part of Thameslink North this post of mine should rejog your memory, even though it focused on SAC...

 

[dan_atki]

No it does not fail the rule because £14.35 is less than what you paid!!!

Please explain to me how the £14.35 WHP-AFK YNG CDR (priced by Southeastern) is LESS than the £13.20 LUT-AFK YNG CDR (priced by First Capital Connect)... I'm intrigued to know that I have been counting incorrectly all my life.

If you think these fares are false then check the attachment on this post.

No idea what you are saying here. The fare check does apply, but the fares to be compared are Bedford, Watford and West Hampstead - all to Ashford, in order to determine which RPs are appropriate.

Indeed, a lot of things on my mind this evening caused me to get confused and think the fares check rule was not to determine routeing points but something I dreamt up.

Tower Hill is a valid interchange with Fenchurch St, as is Aldgate. So anyone with a cross London transfer should automatically be allowed through the barriers at Tower Hill. If they had a specific Thameslink only ticket which did not include a London transfer then I suppose they may not be allowed to alight at Tower Hill but charging people £20 for that is petty and the practice should be ruled unlawful IMO.

Why is that 'unlawful' in your eyes? There were distinct rules arranged between Thameslink and TfL on the acceptance of Thameslink only tickets and customers were told (by staff, through Thameslink's Travel Buddy leaflet, and on their website) they were not to be used for intermediate alighting at LUL stations. If TfL want to charge the £20 penalty fare to someone travelling (to them) without a valid ticket then that's up to them.

Simple really: customer gets told rules, customer chooses to break rules, customer pays consequences.

You can't try telling me that staff at intermediate Circle Line stations between Moorgate and Blackfriars were even told about the arrangements anyway let alone briefed on what to do if someone should present such a ticket to them. They saw the ticket was invalid, so charged a penalty fare for it. This had nothing, whatsoever, to do with Thameslink.

 

[yorkie]

Well in that case the fares are new. The old Avantix traveller shows fares from e.g. Luton as being HIGHER than e.g. West Hampstead.

So it DOES now fail the fares check rule, which technically means there are no "mapped" routes available.

You can use the shortest route, and any route that does not exceed 3 miles longer than the shortest route.

I suspect RPIs are totally unaware of the details of the RG anyway so as long as you stick to sensible routes between Ashford and London you will be fine!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why is that 'unlawful' in your eyes? There were distinct rules arranged between Thameslink and TfL on the acceptance of Thameslink only tickets and customers were told (by staff, through Thameslink's Travel Buddy leaflet, and on their website) they were not to be used for intermediate alighting at LUL stations. If TfL want to charge the £20 penalty fare to someone travelling (to them) without a valid ticket then that's up to them.

Because it's an unfair charge, in the same way that excessive bank charges have now been deemed unlawful.

The banks argued a case that was almost exactly as you describe above - if the customer breaks the terms then they can be charged a huge amount.

I think a similar ruling should apply on railways however I don't think it will because there are far less people being charged unfairly than was the case with banks.

There's also health and safety issues - if a passenger is feeling unwell or something it is daft to demand £20 off them to get off during their journey, which has already been extended and made more stressful through no fault of their own.

 

[dan_atki]

Because it's an unfair charge, in the same way that excessive bank charges have now been deemed unlawful.

The banks argued a case that was almost exactly as you describe above - if the customer breaks the terms then they can be charged a huge amount.

I think a similar ruling should apply on railways however I don't think it will because there are far less people being charged unfairly than was the case with banks.

There's also health and safety issues - if a passenger is feeling unwell or something it is daft to demand £20 off them to get off during their journey, which has already been extended and made more stressful through no fault of their own.

This is completely unrelated to banking charges. Banking charges are hidden and customers are NOT told about them before they are issued and they find out when they've already been charged for them. Customers were told they'd have to pay £20 to LU should they wish to break their journey before they even left Thameslink North stations. Admittedly on the first couple of days then ok things should be a little slack, but after that there's no excuse IMO.

Passengers feeling unwell is a different matter entirely. If you're truly ill the last thing you think about is money. Going upto gateline staff saying you feel ill (and looking it) is also a big giveaway and I'm sure LUL have procedures in place for their own fares regarding this sort of situation.

I'll put it more simply (and hopefully without any workaround this time): Customers who were well enough to spend 8 hours in the office that day, travelling early enough to arrive via a designated route on time, who had a Thameslink only ticket were requesting to leave intermediate LU zone 1 stations not covered by their ticket. They then complained that they'd been charged £20 when they were told at least once (and at least forty-five minutes prior) that would happen if they did that anyway. They then had the cheek to have a go at TL North staff about the PF issued to them... :roll:

Also admittedly it would have been a bit of a waste of time to get a train via Tower Hill to Blackfriars to have to go back to Tower Hill. Begs the question though, how had they been using a ticket to Blackfriars for this journey before (or if they'd started to try to 'exploit' something in the system). A ticket to U1 would have done them fine (and is a ticket they'd need normally anyway).

 

[Edvid]

So it DOES now fail the fares check rule, which technically means there are no "mapped" routes available.

You can use the shortest route, and any route that does not exceed 3 miles longer than the shortest route.

I suspect RPIs are totally unaware of the details of the RG anyway so as long as you stick to sensible routes between Ashford and London you will be fine!!!

If you live in St Albans and you choose to start at SAA and not SAC, that'll be an extra £10.90 (or £7.20 with a Railcard). Kerching!

Provided that the 'shortest route + < 3 miles' rule is satisfied, you could start from anywhere between SAA and EUS inclusive but still have it issued from HPD-LEA and save a few bob when compared to having it issued from where you actually commenced your journey. Although I've never known anyone to interchange between SAA and SAC!

 

[yorkie]

Bank charges were deemed unlawful because they were disproportionately high and could not be justified, not because they were hidden so I think it is a fair comparison, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that I think!

 

[jv3531]

Penalty fares were brought in as a way to protect the railways revenue from those who decide that they for some reason are above us everyday travellers and should get something for nothing. The general rule with penalty fares in any case is that if an individual shows clearly that they intended to travel without payment, then they are breaking the byelaws and conditions of travel by not doing so. If an individual has made a mistake then RPI are asked to treat the individual case with discration and deal with accordingly. This may include a payment for a fare for the journey which has been undertaken to which the ticket does not cover that part of the journey.

If the ticket is valid on the line of route that the passenger is travelling on then exit should be allowed from intermediate stations on that route to which a ticket would then become invalid unless it was valid for a break of journey and the passenger would then have to pay for the next journey as appropriate. If the passenger travels "OFF" route the ticket then becomes invalid and the passenger is then liable to pay the new fare as soon as possible where ticket issuing facilities are provided or available such as on train. If the passenger fails to produce a valid ticket when requested, they are liable to pay again for the journey or, if in a penalty fares area a penalty fare may be charged if they are checked by a penalty fares inspector.

There are enough posters and messages these days indicating that such areas exist for the majority of passengers not to know and if they decide to do something wrong then they should expect to pay for it. If every one was honest and payed every time then penalty fares would not be required nor would the charge!

If ya don't ave anything to hide, you aint got nuffin to worry about guv!

 

[yorkie]

No, penalty fares cannot be charged for being off route.

 

[jv3531]

If the passenger has had an oppertunity to buy a ticket before hand even though they are off route, this under the penalty fares rule would make them liable. If they have entered a penalty fare area, with intent to avoid payment with an "off-route" ticket then they would be charged because they have made a journey from the point of which the ticket became off route to the point which they are now at - this constitutes as being a new journey and would therefore be liable. If how ever, this was a genuine mistake and the customer can prove such then discretion should be used the customer should only be charged as for the journey for which the ticket issued is not valid. Again, as long as the passenger payes before the journey is comenced then there would be no case for a penalty fare to be issued.

 

[yorkie]

No. An RPI here has stated you cannot be PF'd for being "off route"; do a search for previous discussions on this subject.

Also the onus is on the staff to prove the customer intended the action, not the other way round, in law, I am told.

 

[jopsuk]

No. An RPI here has stated you cannot be PF'd for being "off route"; do a search for previous discussions on this subject.

Also the onus is on the staff to prove the customer intended the action, not the other way round, in law, I am told.

Innocent until proven guilty is supposedly a principle of our legal system.

 

[OwlMan]

For the rules on Penalty Fares see Department For tRansport website at

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

You may find out somethings you did not know!!

Peter

 

[Edvid]

If you buy a ticket (e.g. CDR) for travel between Thameslink North stations and Moorgate (route ANY PERMITTED [sans †]), would you be allowed to travel with LUL after the last Thameslink services operate to/from Moorgate?

I bought such a ticket the other day - although I didn't travel with LUL and never got off/on at Moorgate I found that it couldn't work the gates at either London St Pancras (Thameslink) or Farringdon...

 

[glynn80]

If you buy a ticket (e.g. CDR) for travel between Thameslink North stations and Moorgate (route ANY PERMITTED [sans †]), would you be allowed to travel with LUL after the last Thameslink services operate to/from Moorgate?

I bought such a ticket the other day - although I didn't travel with LUL and never got off/on at Moorgate I found that it couldn't work the gates at either London St Pancras (Thameslink) or Farringdon...

The only ticket I can find that would allow you to purchase a CDR from a Thameslink North station (I chose Mill Hill Bway) to Moorgate is the following

MILL HILL BWAY - LONDON THAMESLNK

rte NOT UNDERGROUND

CDR B1 R £4.30

So if you look at the routeing it says NOT UNDERGROUND so no you would not be able to use the UNDERGROUND for any part of your journey.

 

[Edvid]

If it helps my CDR was issued for travel between Luton Airport Parkway and (specifically) Moorgate Und; and it's definitely route ANY PERMITTED, so my question still stands. In any case, Moorgate and Barbican are no longer part of the London Thameslink group.

 

[glynn80]

If it helps my CDR was issued for travel between Luton Airport Parkway and (specifically) Moorgate Und; and it's definitely route ANY PERMITTED, so my question still stands. In any case, Moorgate and Barbican are no longer part of the London Thameslink group.

If I looked at fares from Mill Hill Bway to Moorgate it gave me a fare of £4.30 on Evolvi, but on looking in the NFM it does state the following:

· From the North, tickets issued to ‘LONDON THAMESLNK’ (NLC 4452) are valid to London St. Pancras International, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge, Elephant & Castle.

· For Barbican or Moorgate via Thameslink a ticket issued to one of these named stations, a Travelcard or other ticket valid for travel in Zone U1 is required.

The only thing I can think is this:

National Rail tickets which include validity
Between West Hampstead Thameslink and Moorgate/ Elephant & Castle / London Bridge

are also valid on LU / DLR services
between West Hampstead and Moorgate/ London Bridge/ Elephant & Castle by Jubilee, District and Circle Lines (via Westminster) to Blackfriars, but not where tickets routed ‘FIRST CAPITAL; CONNECT ONLY’, ‘LDN NOT UNDERGROUND’ or ‘NOT UNDERGROUND’


But really to explain the validity I'd need to know the price you paid and whether that had any discounts on it!!

 

[Edvid]

I have a 16-25 Railcard and started travelling to London before 10am so it was discounted to the minimum fare of £8 (after 10am it would have cost £6.60). On the issue of interavailable tickets on certain joint LUL/NR routes it's the absence of a cross-London marker that confuses me.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The Fares and Retail Publication Portal (FRPP) used by some (if not all) stations says:

Tickets issued from stations Bedford to West Hampstead Thameslink inclusive

Tickets from these stations to London Thameslink, Farringdon Und, Barbican Und, Moorgate Und, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge, Elephant & Castle, are valid on London Underground services between a First Capital Connect interchange point (including West Hampstead Thameslink, Kentish Town and St Pancras International) and the final destination. Break of journey at other London Underground stations is not permitted. This also applies to season tickets. Not applicable where ‘First Capital Connect only’, ‘Not Underground’ or ‘Ldn Not Underground’ routeings are shown

Therefore an '+Any Permitted' ticket is valid on LUL between Moorgate and St Pancras/Farringdon/Kentish Town/West Hampstead.

 

[Edvid]

Like I said earlier, I'm talking about the routing ANY PERMITTED, not †ANY PERMITTED (otherwise I wouldn't have posed the question in post #50). In post #16 of this thread dan_atki states that ANY PERMITTED and NOT UNDERGROUND are effectively the same routing as far as journeys to London Thameslink stations are concerned so my question still stands.

 

[dan_atki]

Like I said earlier, I'm talking about the routing ANY PERMITTED, not †ANY PERMITTED (otherwise I wouldn't have posed the question in post #50). In post #16 of this thread dan_atki states that ANY PERMITTED and NOT UNDERGROUND are effectively the same routing as far as journeys to London Thameslink stations are concerned so my question still stands.

Yes but 'Barbican Und' and 'Moorgate Und' are NOT 'London Thameslink' stations (which are dealt with differently compared to the Moorgate branch) - tickets are issued to those stations directly.

Judging by the wording copied from FRPP above, your ticket is not marked in such a way it is obvious it is not valid on the underground. Or, put a different less confusing way: the ticket does not forbid you to travel on LU based on the wording on it.

+ is normally only used (I believe) for cross-London transfers whereby there is a NR leg of the journey at the start and end and Tube somewhere in the middle. Try looking at say London Waterloo to Zone U1 Londn and see the routeing offered (Via LU/DLR) with no +. So because your journey here may be ending with LU, no cross is shown.

Personally I believe that if that ticket isn't valid on LU between ZFD and ZMG then that's rather poor considering you could wait all day for the train when there's a train 10 metres behind you at Farringdon every 3 minutes! Of course we all know, though, that matters are hardly logical.

Still it was mentioned somewhere else (can't remember where though and in fact may have been you who said it) about continuation of season tickets to ZMG after closure of the Moorgate branch - that to me at least suggests that LU are accepting such tickets on their services.

To be completely honest with you I don't see why your ticket to Barbican Und would fail to open the barriers there even at 1200 off an LU service - LU and FCC share the same barriers at ZFD, ZBB, and ZMG.

You could try it once and see what happens - if it is deemed invalid ask them where it says on the ticket 'FCC only' or 'Not Underground' (which, in fairness, should be enough) and then further bamboozle them by saying you believe the 'Und' in the destination made you further believe it was valid on LU. (Ok we both know 'Und' refers to the fact the station is operated by LU but you could plead completely ignorant about that). Alternatively contact FCC for advice.

My feeling is, though, your ticket is valid on LU between ZFD and ZMG (no point changing anywhere other than Farringdon really).

 

[Edvid]

I see now. Thanks again (and yes, it was I who mentioned the continuation of specific ZMG/ZBB tickets beyond the closure).

Now that the second round of 'Simplification' is in place, I've checked the NXEC JP and it looks like the NOT UNDERGROUND routeing in relation to London Thameslink tickets may have been partially replaced by ANY PERMITTED or other routeings as appropriate - I don't have an actual ticket to hand though...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I had assumed the '+' to be on it without really looking, but doublechecked and its not, so thats my bad, sorry.

Anyway, it is valid.

 

[Edvid]

[All prices in this particular post include Y-P Railcard discounts]

In light of the Evening Peak Restrictions set by FCC, if I still want to return between 1630 and 1901 inclusive it is cheapest for me to buy a Cheap Day Return from Luton Airport Parkway to Elstree and Borehamwood and an Off Peak Day Travelcard from there (£4.30 and £4.80 respectively); but if I want to travel on (semi-)fast trains then a through CDR to anywhere between Kempton Park Racecourse and Shepperton inclusive for £9.25 is the cheapest option I have.

The following is related to the through CDR.


The obvious route is: LTN -(EMT/FCC)- STP -(Victoria line)- VXH -(SWT)- SHP

And it looks like multiple tickets are required for this route: LTN -(FCC)- WIM -(SWT)- SHP


However, what I would like to know is:

1) Whether it is good for this route: LTN -(FCC)- BFR -(Circle/District lines)- VIC -(SN)- CLJ -(SWT)- SHP

2) What other routes are permitted.