Make trains dry?

[Technologist]

It's a whole different category, banning drinking on a 20 minute tube journey, compared to not being able to have a few beers on a train from London to Penzance at the start of your holiday. Most people who enjoy a drink would agree that one of these is reasonable and the other one not so much.

This is why I suggested having a drinking carriage(s), which you have to book in advance and you have to use photo ID so you can be banned if you are anti-social. Best of both worlds?

 

[Harpo]

This is why I suggested having a drinking carriage(s), which you have to book in advance and you have to use photo ID so you can be banned if you are anti-social. Best of both worlds?

You seem to equate all drinking with ‘problem’. Apart from hot spots events (e.g. race meetings), I only routinely encounter anti-social issues with the consumption of ‘entertainment’ and the loud use of phones. Maybe

having a drinking tech carriage(s), which you have to book in advance and you have to use photo ID so you can be banned if you are anti-social.

Seems by far the bigger issue?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The most basic argument in favour is that they banned drinking on the tube in 2008 and it has mostly worked despite there not being aggressive enforcement.

Apples and oranges.

The 2008 rules in London were brought in to prevent a specific issue, which was that people had started riding around the Circle Line all evening using it as a party train.

Otherwise, alcohol consumption on the tube was never really a problem- very few people were on a train long enough to open a tin.

 

[duffield]

This is why I suggested having a drinking carriage(s), which you have to book in advance and you have to use photo ID so you can be banned if you are anti-social. Best of both worlds?

No use to people on flexible tickets, no spontaneous trips, more bureaucracy (and guards have enough trouble just checking tickets and railcards, let alone having to check a carriage full of ids), and you can end up with either the "drinking coach" being under occupied with no seats available on the rest of the train - or vice-versa. This also assumes sufficiently long trains to even have such a coach - what about a two coach train on the S&C? How to prevent people moving to/from the "drinking coach" after the train has departed?

And again, it's punishing people who just want a quiet drink and to enjoy the scenery for the behaviour of others, who will probably ignore the drinking coach anyhow due to the id requirement, be already drunk when they board and drink wherever they like with the guard pretty much powerless to stop them. I'm totally opposed to this and any other measures like it because I believe they will be both ineffective and punish the innocent.

I stick with my view that the best solution is more BTP, strictly targeting behaviour, at trouble hotspots and times. Ban individuals from the railway if they can't behave - swearing and abuse, damage to seats, loud music whatever, all potentially criminal/bylaw offences, so clamp down on that really hard.

 

[SirAlf]

OP here. I’ve been following this thread with great interest. It seems that most people disagree with my suggestion but would like to see something brought in regarding anti social behaviour - but every suggestion seems to have a counter-suggestion. I suppose it was ASB that I had in mind when I started things off.

The sort of things I had in mind were say 3 lads with a case of lager each, or 3 women with a bottle of fizz each, sitting at a table where the fourth person already at the table is made to feel increasingly uncomfortable as they get progressively louder. I’m no shrinking violet but both have happened to me, having to listen to the women I learned more about “womens stuff” than any chap needs to know…

I concede that my suggestion was probably over the top but apart from increasing BTP visibility there doesn’t seem to be an answer. I did once text BTP when a group of lads were f-ing and c-ing loudly but the only answer I got was to report them to the train manager. Which I didn’t do…..

So perhaps more trains should be made dry without a total ban. Perhaps weekend trains to/from London, trains to/from horse racing venues, trains to/from the coast.

And for the record I expected a load of posts against football fans (of which I am one) but that hasn’t really happened

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail have the ASB thing pretty much sewn up - you need to employ staff specifically to enforce against even low level ASB (e.g. feet on seats) with a zero tolerance, straight to prosecution/settlement approach. It's not like fares where people can forget or get confused, any reasonable person knows you don't put feet on the seat or drop litter for example. While it can feel draconian and a bit unfriendly, the approach certainly works, alcohol or not. (Merseyrail does ban alcohol, but like the Tube most journeys are too short for most people to really want it, even before the ban it was extremely rare to see it, and if you did really want it you'd get away with it by putting it in a coffee cup or something).

 

[35B]

OP here. I’ve been following this thread with great interest. It seems that most people disagree with my suggestion but would like to see something brought in regarding anti social behaviour - but every suggestion seems to have a counter-suggestion. I suppose it was ASB that I had in mind when I started things off.

The sort of things I had in mind were say 3 lads with a case of lager each, or 3 women with a bottle of fizz each, sitting at a table where the fourth person already at the table is made to feel increasingly uncomfortable as they get progressively louder. I’m no shrinking violet but both have happened to me, having to listen to the women I learned more about “womens stuff” than any chap needs to know…

I concede that my suggestion was probably over the top but apart from increasing BTP visibility there doesn’t seem to be an answer. I did once text BTP when a group of lads were f-ing and c-ing loudly but the only answer I got was to report them to the train manager. Which I didn’t do…..

So perhaps more trains should be made dry without a total ban. Perhaps weekend trains to/from London, trains to/from horse racing venues, trains to/from the coast.

And for the record I expected a load of posts against football fans (of which I am one) but that hasn’t really happened

As @Bletchleyite says, the issue is enforcement - not rules. It is anti-social behaviour that causes the problems, whether due to alcohol, drugs, or simply people being [expletives deleteds].

I've endured bad journeys with no alcohol present, and I've endured them with people arriving drunk and getting progressively worse.

 

[AlterEgo]

This is why I suggested having a drinking carriage(s), which you have to book in advance and you have to use photo ID so you can be banned if you are anti-social. Best of both worlds?

This is tinkering at the edges.

Have staff who will throw off drunk people and physically enforce proper behaviour. As @Bletchleyite notes, Merseyrail do this, so it is not a new concept. It just requires everyone to take a deep breath and enforce some standards.

 

[Djgr]

Clearly the recent Scotrail experience here is highly relevant and probably answers the question.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Apples and oranges.

The 2008 rules in London were brought in to prevent a specific issue, which was that people had started riding around the Circle Line all evening using it as a party train.

Otherwise, alcohol consumption on the tube was never really a problem- very few people were on a train long enough to open a tin.

That's not the case, and is a rewriting of history - what you are remembering is the 'party trains' that happened in the run up to the ban as a reaction to it.

The then newly elected Mayor Boris Johnson's justification for banning alcohol consumption on TfL services (even though it was sorta banned already under the pre-existing bylaws) was wider than that - it was part of his "wider strategy to tackle anti-social behaviour", as reported at the time:
BBC News - Johnson bans drink on transport

The Mayoral election happened on Thursday 1 May 2008, the new Mayor took office on Sunday 4 May and the ban was announced on Wednesday 7 May to take effect from Sunday 1 June 2008. I'd suggest it was the new Mayor putting on a bit of a show and demonstrating he could flex his powers quickly.

 

[Djgr]

That's not the case, and is a rewriting of history - what you are remembering is the 'party trains' that happened in the run up to the ban as a reaction to it.

The then newly elected Mayor Boris Johnson's justification for banning alcohol consumption on TfL services (even though it was sorta banned already under the pre-existing bylaws) was wider than that - it was part of his "wider strategy to tackle anti-social behaviour", as reported at the time:
BBC News - Johnson bans drink on transport

The Mayoral election happened on Thursday 1 May 2008, the new Mayor took office on Sunday 4 May and the ban was announced on Wednesday 7 May to take effect from Sunday 1 June 2008. I'd suggest it was the new Mayor putting on a bit of a show and demonstrating he could flex his powers quickly.

Ironic really, when you consider BoJo's general behaviour

 

[Jimini]

That's not the case, and is a rewriting of history - what you are remembering is the 'party trains' that happened in the run up to the ban as a reaction to it.

The then newly elected Mayor Boris Johnson's justification for banning alcohol consumption on TfL services (even though it was sorta banned already under the pre-existing bylaws) was wider than that - it was part of his "wider strategy to tackle anti-social behaviour", as reported at the time:
BBC News - Johnson bans drink on transport

The Mayoral election happened on Thursday 1 May 2008, the new Mayor took office on Sunday 4 May and the ban was announced on Wednesday 7 May to take effect from Sunday 1 June 2008. I'd suggest it was the new Mayor putting on a bit of a show and demonstrating he could flex his powers quickly.

Agreed -- although he could have lifted the ban the following year when it started running to Hammersmith and you were forced to change at Edgware Road

 

[Joe Paxton]

Ironic really, when you consider BoJo's general behaviour

Oh, absolutely.

Those who actually paid attention to how he handled being Mayor (e.g. attention to detail - or rather, the abject lack of it!) could quite easily see his unsuitability for the role as PM. Hey ho, lesson learnt... (...or probably not!).

 

[yorkie]

I’d be interested in everyone’s opinion. I’m a regular leisure traveller, often (but not exclusively) at weekends and it occurs to me that just like TFL, our trains should be dry - that is, no drinking alcohol or carrying open containers of alcohol.

I should say that I absolutely enjoy a drink, often several, but never on the train. I think my journey would be much more pleasant if booze was banned. What does everyone else think?

Oh, and by the way, I have a small bet with a fellow traveller on how many posts it will take before a specific type of traveller (of which we both are) are subject to generalisation in a reply

I strongly disagee, for various reasons which others have stated already.

The problem is that this is very difficult to enforce..

I agree, however...

, especially as we move towards more DOO (and this is a bigger issue on commuter trains if argue, where DOO is very prevalent now).

...the operation method of the train doesn't determine or indicate this at all.

There are plenty of Driver Only Operated trains with on board supervisors/managers (OBS/OBM) or travelling ticket inspectors (TTI), customer service ambassadors etc in addition to be driver; many of these are extremely proactive (I've found the Scotrail TTIs are the most proactive of any on-board in my experience).

Equally, there are plenty of trains with a traditional Guard, but where the Guard would not be able to reach the customer, e.g. due to the use of multiple non-gangway stock (especially on Northern, TPE etc), or they can choose to remain in the back cab.

The method of operation of a train is a separate concept to the visibility of passenger-facing staff.

Had we stuck with a driver and guard on all trains, it would've been possible for the guard to stop passengers from going overboard with their drinking.

No on board staff, whether they be a Guard, OBM/OBS, TTI, customer service ambassador etc could possibly be expected to enforce this.

 

[rmHawk765]

No on board staff, whether they be a Guard, OBM/OBS, TTI, customer service ambassador etc could possibly be expected to enforce this.

I mean surely they would be able to remove people who have clearly gone overboard and are causing commotion? As I said, I don't agree with the idea of completely prohibiting drinking.

 

[JamesT]

I mean surely they would be able to remove people who have clearly gone overboard and are causing commotion? As I said, I don't agree with the idea of completely prohibiting drinking.

How? As soon as the guard touches the customer they risk being charged with assault.

 

[yorkie]

I mean surely they would be able to remove people who have clearly gone overboard and are causing commotion? As I said, I don't agree with the idea of completely prohibiting drinking.

It's not within the remit of on-board staff to "remove people"

Edit: they could ask the person to leave, but if they want to remove someone, they would need to call the police; it makes no sense to do that over drinking alcohol, however yes if there is disorder they would call for backup.

The Scottish Government already trialled a ban, ostensibly originally as some sort of COVID restriction, and the ban was widely deemed to be a failure and overturned:

ScotRail staff cannot enforce alcohol ban, boss of nationalised train operator admits

The managing director of ScotRail has made some admissions around enforcement of the alcohol ban on trains.

www.scotsman.com

The alcohol ban on ScotRail trains cannot be enforced by staff, the boss of the nationalised operator has said, as she suggested the policy had not had an impact on anti-social behaviour

'Ineffective' alcohol ban on ScotRail trains to end, Scottish Government says

The "ineffective" alcohol ban on ScotRail trains is set to be replaced, the Scottish Government has said

www.thenational.scot

the Scottish Government said the current alcohol ban was "counterproductive" and would be replaced with new regulations which focus on particular times and locations, highlighting concerns "from rail staff and others".

Fresh calls to end ScotRail booze ban as no prosecutions made in three years

Fresh calls are being made to reverse the ban on alcohol on ScotRail services as new data reveals there hasn't been a single prosecution for the offence in three years.

www.agcc.co.uk

Data from ScotRail shows 56% of passengers want the ban scrapped, with less than a third (29%) in favour of keeping it.

Mick Hogg, the RMT Union's organiser, said: "The ban on alcohol is not working.

ScotRail alcohol ban 'ignored' by passengers as policy branded 'unenforceable'

SNP ministers announced a "temporary" ban on the consumption of alcohol on ScotRail services in 2020 during the covid pandemic.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk

SNP ministers announced a "temporary" ban on the consumption of alcohol on ScotRail services in 2020 during the covid pandemic.
The SNP's booze ban on ScotRail services is being widely ignored by passengers as the policy is "unenforceable", trade union chiefs have warned

Less than a third of passengers supported it, but I'm surprised it was as high as 29 per cent, given that it was absolutely obvious that the ban was ineffective, unenforceable and it is completely unreasonable for anyone to expect on-board staff (in any role/grade) to enforce it.

I'm pretty sure if a poll was created on this forum, the results would be even more skewed against, as there are many people here who either work in (or as a supplier to) the rail industry or have friends, colleagues, family members etc who do, many of whom would understand that this is unworkable and and places staff in a difficult position.

Selected trains, stations, routes being designated "dry" for specific events / occasions, with security staff and police drafted in to enforce it, is a completely different matter.

 

[Djgr]

It's not within the remit of on-board staff to "remove people".

The Scottish Government already trialled a ban, ostensibly originally as some sort of COVID restriction, and the ban was widely deemed to be a failure and overturned:

ScotRail staff cannot enforce alcohol ban, boss of nationalised train operator admits

The managing director of ScotRail has made some admissions around enforcement of the alcohol ban on trains.

www.scotsman.com

'Ineffective' alcohol ban on ScotRail trains to end, Scottish Government says

The "ineffective" alcohol ban on ScotRail trains is set to be replaced, the Scottish Government has said

www.thenational.scot

Yes. Scotrail have helpfully provided the largest possible empirical trial here, which provides a clear answer.

 

[yorksrob]

I mean surely they would be able to remove people who have clearly gone overboard and are causing commotion? As I said, I don't agree with the idea of completely prohibiting drinking.

Oh indeed. There are by-laws against causing other passengers a nuisance. A friend of mine once called the police about disruptive passengers and they were apparently removed by the local police at the next station.

 

[Howardh]

What constitutes "alcohol" anyway - a shandy at 0.5% ABV? That aside, I'd rather concentrate "banning" of alcohol in airports and on flights, at least on a train there may be the opportunity to move away into a different carriage, alert the guard or even get off and catch the following service. No such luck on a plane!

What would the following situation be - you are on an advance ticket but the train is full of annoying drunks (say after a big event) - would it be fair to leave the train and catch another one on the same ticket if one explained to the guard the reason?

 

[Topological]

What constitutes "alcohol" anyway - a shandy at 0.5% ABV? That aside, I'd rather concentrate "banning" of alcohol in airports and on flights, at least on a train there may be the opportunity to move away into a different carriage, alert the guard or even get off and catch the following service. No such luck on a plane!

What would the following situation be - you are on an advance ticket but the train is full of annoying drunks (say after a big event) - would it be fair to leave the train and catch another one on the same ticket if one explained to the guard the reason?

I have been allowed to do that in the past. However, that is not to say people can always expect the option. It worked because it meant that there was a little more space on the full train and the one after was basically empty anyway. (It was after football, so there was obviously a train the supporters took to get back where they were going, but I only needed Manchester)

I would not like to see alcohol banned on planes. That is about the cabin crew being controlled in service and the gate team doing their job not allowing people to board when drunk. Though I do not drink anymore, the business class experience was very much about champagne, appropriately matched wines and then port with the cheese and biscuits. (I never bought a business class ticket, but did well on upgrades)

There is definitely a difference between antisocial behaviour and alcohol.

Also before anyone suggests I drink and am biased, I do not. I rarely drink at all, having probably overdone it in my years as a younger academic. Probably better there were no trains for us back from the pub as I doubt many would have been interested to know whether macroeconomics is just micro added up, or whether micro is just a fancified business studies.

 

[Harpo]

Yesterday two sociable 50-somethings sat at our table with a couple of bottles and we had a great chat about recent gigs. No issues for anyone.

Later four teenagers dressed for a night out boarded playing loud music, which passed without comment from the guard. Luckily it was the last 20 minutes of the trip but reinforces my view about noise as the predominant anti-social behaviour on trains.