Major TPE services disruption 19/11/15

[Darren R]

Hadn't it already been diverted due to the broken rail, which is why it was going down the L&Y in the first place?

I think this is the TPE concerned; the 1212 Liverpool Lime Street to Newcastle. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y00268/2015/11/19/advanced

Already running late by the time it left Victoria, it was diverted via the Calder Valley only to get stuck in the melee. The 1326 Manchester Victoria to Leeds via Brighouse was in front of it, but unfortunately by then there were two other trains behind it, one of which was another diverted TPE service (1Pxx but I can't remember which exactly.) I don't know how long it was stuck, but it was at least a couple of hours. Does anyone know know what time the passengers were finally released?

A Blackburn to Manchester Victoria via Todmorden train, having already set off, was stopped at Accrington before reversing and returning to Vic non-stop via Blackburn and Bolton.

 

[mbonwick]

Reach the condition it has. It seems quite serious and I suspect it being in the tunnel has made it harder to detect

It's very difficult to say how long it took to actually get to that stage without sticking the fracture surfaces under a microscope. It could take anywhere from a few weeks to decades.

The problem is that it can be almost impossible to detect flaws within the rail until very late in their propagation - when they're close(ish) to total failure. Obviously the dark nature of tunnels doesn't help with visual inspections - but it's entirely possible that there would have been nothing to see anyway until it broke.

Potentially all it could have taken for the rail to finally break completely is a single wheel with a slight flat rolling over it, and imparting enough shock loading that the remaining "good" material in the rail fails.

 

[IanXC]

Sheffield based crews sign shf-hud but via wakefield. The overnight airport-sheffield takes that route for retention purposes

Ah thanks, and they would be occupied running South TP services... A diversion too far!

 

[Bantamzen]

Police controlling access to platforms 15/16 at Leeds due to overcrowding

There were several announcements at Leeds yesterday evening asking people to stand back from the edge of 16, I'm glad I wasn't traveling in that direction as it sounded like chaos. At one point there was an announcement that replacement buses were outside for Dewsbury / Huddersfield but I'm not sure how many people actually took this up as shortly after a late running Man Pic service was announced as approaching 16. Not a good day for both Pennine routes.

 

[northernchris]

It's very difficult to say how long it took to actually get to that stage without sticking the fracture surfaces under a microscope. It could take anywhere from a few weeks to decades.

The problem is that it can be almost impossible to detect flaws within the rail until very late in their propagation - when they're close(ish) to total failure. Obviously the dark nature of tunnels doesn't help with visual inspections - but it's entirely possible that there would have been nothing to see anyway until it broke.

Potentially all it could have taken for the rail to finally break completely is a single wheel with a slight flat rolling over it, and imparting enough shock loading that the remaining "good" material in the rail fails.

Thanks for the explanation didn't realise it took so long for cracks to form

 

[edwin_m]

CSA at Piccadilly P13/14 last night seemed to have the main objective of shouting at people to stay behind the yellow line. The included when there were no trains present, when there was no crush loading on the platform and when a train was standing there and people were trying to board it.

Meanwhile on two occasions in the 30min or so I was there, trains were left standing at cleared signals in these critical platforms for several minutes, so either TRTS had been given before the train was ready or there was nobody to give RA. Not Network Rail's finest hour.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

1P24 10:06 MIA-YRK followed by 1K10 10:42 MAN-HUL were last trains through when a fault with the signalling developed within the tunnel. following service 1E69 10:12 LIV-NCL was asked to examine the line and discovered the broken rail. The damage was so severe that it stranded 1E69 within the tunnel. That train eventually managed to negotiate the broken rail and arrived into Huddersfield some 168 minutes late!

Following services were also stranded at diggle, greenfield and mossley. Stalybridge was used to terminate 1P28 which was sent back to Victoria to tie up to 1E70 and ran via hebden Bridge successfully. The plan was to continue to run the LIV-MCV-NCL's tied up to a 1Pxx reversing at stalybridge then back to MCV to run a 6car via the calder valley to at least keep something moving while a total block was taken on standedge tunnel to repair the broken rail.

It was 1E71 12:12 LIV-NCL that was stranded at Rochdale. My back working, I was due to pick it up at York at 14:08. Already +60 late due to a late start from LIV and following stopping services as a result the train had already passed rochdale when the line closed at Littleborough. With no other route available to it, it had no choice but to abandon the journey and disgorge its now seriously delayed passengers at Rochdale, which by this point were some 3 hours late.

I myself was able to ressurect 1E74 at york as 1G74 all stops to newcastle vice following cancelled 1P48. Sadly coordination of services were severely lacking as running 10 late we were held outside Darlington for some 6 further minutes while they regulated 2D56 16:24 BIA-SLB in and out of the station first, on platform 4 (while platform 1 remained unoccupied) which annoyingly was the middlesbrough connection my pax were supposed to be connecting on to. Eventual arrival into NCL 24 late but a 3hr late book off by me whilre i then assisted the volunteer traincrew to prepare the 18:04 NCL-LIV which had passengers awaiting the 16:08 and 17:02 cancelled departures on board.

 

[geoffk]

I travelled from Todmorden to Stalybridge yesterday so was caught up in both incidents, and I only went for a pint!

Calder Valley trains from Leeds were still being turned back at Hebden Bridge, even though a turnback facility is now available at Todmorden, signalled for passenger use. Does anyone know why this wasn't being used? Also user groups have campaigned for years for the Summit West ground frame to be put on to Preston panel, so trains can run as far as Littleborough in times of disruption.

Littleborough to Tod is a more acceptable bus replacement journey than Rochdale to Hebden Bridge and it's easier to get buses to Littleborough station.

These incidents happen but alternative arrangements could be so much better.

 

[crispy1978]

CSA at Piccadilly P13/14 last night seemed to have the main objective of shouting at people to stay behind the yellow line. The included when there were no trains present, when there was no crush loading on the platform and when a train was standing there and people were trying to board it.

I've found this has become a lot more of a priority at some stations in recent months - Preston, Lancaster, Wigan NW and Leeds are 4 from memory. Obviously it's for safety reasons - but they are quite dictatorial, particularly on the VTWC. Mind you, when kids use platforms as a playground, you can hardly blame the staff!

 

[Aldaniti]

I've found this has become a lot more of a priority at some stations in recent months - Preston, Lancaster, Wigan NW and Leeds are 4 from memory. Obviously it's for safety reasons - but they are quite dictatorial, particularly on the VTWC. Mind you, when kids use platforms as a playground, you can hardly blame the staff!

Stafford station is the worst. Virgin staff walk up and down the platforms every hour, and wobetide if you're anywhere near the yellow line, or within six feet of the end of the platform. Sometimes it's quite comical when they come out of their hut and walk up and down on adjacent platforms in tandem, its a bit like a military drill. Whether or not there's a need for this sort of thing, they are completely over the top at Stafford. As it's a bit of a freight 'hotspot' for enthusiasts, it does make you wonder whether its done partly to put enthusiasts off. Now and again you do see more enthusiasts on the platform than passengers.

 

[Crossover]

Stafford station is the worst. Virgin staff walk up and down the platforms every hour, and wobetide if you're anywhere near the yellow line, or within six feet of the end of the platform. Sometimes it's quite comical when they come out of their hut and walk up and down on adjacent platforms in tandem, its a bit like a military drill. Whether or not there's a need for this sort of thing, they are completely over the top at Stafford. As it's a bit of a freight 'hotspot' for enthusiasts, it does make you wonder whether its done partly to put enthusiasts off. Now and again you do see more enthusiasts on the platform than passengers.

I never had any issue at Stafford, though it is a while since I was there. I was led to believe they came out each hour to check the phones at the end of the platforms and indeed on a couple of occasion I was there they did go to the "SPT". Whether it is necessary, I couldn't say

 

[BurtonM]

Seems pretty fortunate that I went to the pub last night instead of going straight home from uni (Oxford Road-Stalybridge). There were still delays and cancellations at the end of service, though trains were getting through Standedge (when did it reopen?). The last MIA-YRK of the day was cancelled due to the broken rail according to RTT - I assume this was residual as the train I got (2319 from MAN-YRK) home made it through. Arrived at Oxford Road as a 6-car 185 - I assumed the rear set was locked out as 6 cars don't fit in Oxford Road! It got there 4 down and was held about 10 minutes, routed into P14 at Piccadilly and got there about 2335. Held until 2351 to pick up passengers on the cancelled ex-MIA service. SSO made for Dewsbury too.
The guard was a good 'un - kept us informed, thanked us all for our patience and not kicking off, and told everyone not to worry about tickets either (lucky for some!). Went through the train to answer questions etc - good man.

 

[Aldaniti]

I never had any issue at Stafford, though it is a while since I was there. I was led to believe they came out each hour to check the phones at the end of the platforms and indeed on a couple of occasion I was there they did go to the "SPT". Whether it is necessary, I couldn't say

That's interesting... and now you mention it, it makes complete sense. I guess that keeping the enthusiasts in check offers a little light relief on the way.

 

[Crossover]

Seems pretty fortunate that I went to the pub last night instead of going straight home from uni (Oxford Road-Stalybridge). There were still delays and cancellations at the end of service, though trains were getting through Standedge (when did it reopen?). The last MIA-YRK of the day was cancelled due to the broken rail according to RTT - I assume this was residual as the train I got (2319 from MAN-YRK) home made it through. Arrived at Oxford Road as a 6-car 185 - I assumed the rear set was locked out as 6 cars don't fit in Oxford Road! It got there 4 down and was held about 10 minutes, routed into P14 at Piccadilly and got there about 2335. Held until 2351 to pick up passengers on the cancelled ex-MIA service. SSO made for Dewsbury too.
The guard was a good 'un - kept us informed, thanked us all for our patience and not kicking off, and told everyone not to worry about tickets either (lucky for some!). Went through the train to answer questions etc - good man.

Oxford Road can take a 6 car 185, given it can take an 8 car 350 (on certain platforms, at least)

 

[mike57]

Got caught up in the tailend of the disruption last night travelling from Birchwood to Seamer. Had 1st Advance for the 18.50 from Birchwood. Train arrived about 40 mins late, and proceeded to loose more time all the way. Train was 6 carriages and full but not standing. Usually 1st Class is nearly empty at this time, but not last night. (And everyone was entitled to 1st Class)

Considering the level of disruption I think I was fairly lucky. However when we arrived at York, at around 21.35, almost an hour late by this time things turned to farce.

We arrived on platform 5 as normal, sat there for a while, before being told there was no driver or guard. We were told to get off, the train then left on the Scarborough line. We were then told to go to Platform 2 (bay platform) where, we were told, a train would leave for Scarborough at around 22.20. The same six carriages as we had been told to leaxe 20 mins before arrived back in Platform 2, it was split and the front 3 then left for Scarborough with me sat in the same seat as I had been from Birchwood.

Why didnt they just leave us on the train then move those in the back 3 to the front 3?

Also how do you claim a delay repay on an mTicket (Only just started using mTickets, so its the first time I have needed to claim)

Mike

 

[Sheepy1209]

To add to the misery yesterday, there were several Blackpool North trains cancelled at Preston - somebody mentioned a broken-down train, maybe it was knock-on effects of delays elsewhere - does anybody know?

Even if it was coincidence, there were plenty of people at Preston who'd been caught up in delays on their way there and it just added to the feeling of chaos - no announcements were being made, just estimated arrival times suddenly being replaced with cancellation.

As it happened I'd been to Sheffield and left an hour earlier than intended - no issues to speak of until Preston but sounds like I was lucky.

 

[Whistler40145]

Shame 185s aren't passed for the Copy Pit route, could've run a service from Manchester via Bolton, Blackburn and Hebden Bridge.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

How do you claim a delay repay on an mTicket (Only just started using mTickets, so its the first time I have needed to claim)

Mike

Your m-ticket has a unique number. You will see this even if the ticket has expired.

Quote the m-ticket nUmber on the compo form or call 0345 600 1671 or email the details to tpecustomer.relations@firstgroup.com

 

[nosmo king]

To add to the misery yesterday, there were several Blackpool North trains cancelled at Preston - somebody mentioned a broken-down train, maybe it was knock-on effects of delays elsewhere - does anybody know?

Even if it was coincidence, there were plenty of people at Preston who'd been caught up in delays on their way there and it just added to the feeling of chaos - no announcements were being made, just estimated arrival times suddenly being replaced with cancellation.

As it happened I'd been to Sheffield and left an hour earlier than intended - no issues to speak of until Preston but sounds like I was lucky.

On the 1717 Preston to Euston train, the guard said it was due to a train south of Preston reporting smoke and the fire brigade being called out, but I also heard there was a trackside fire at Winsford. Don't know if there were two incidents but it might explain why the 1800 Colne train didn't leave on time if the line was shut briefly. Most of the trains going onto Wigan seemed to be held at Preston (probably because of the Winsford incident) and I would say there was no space for Blackpool trains to come in and therefore cancelled. I ended up on the 1820 Hazel Grove which amazingly left on time, but the 1717 Euston was still being held.

 

[BurtonM]

Oxford Road can take a 6 car 185, given it can take an 8 car 350 (on certain platforms, at least)

P4 isn't one of these - as I failed to mention!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

P4 isn't one of these - as I failed to mention!

Plat 4 does see regular 8 car 350's in service as this is the oft used picc bound platform. P2 is used for the scottish bound services but the back set of doors need to be locked out of use due to the length of the train and the platform. Its P3 that cannot accomodate 8car 350's due to the signal overlaps.

 

[BurtonM]

Colour me confused then - I got on the rear end of the front unit and it looked like the rear unit didn't fit in the station (though it was dark). It did also appear to stop a bit short though, maybe I'm going mad.

 

[Sheepy1209]

On the 1717 Preston to Euston train, the guard said it was due to a train south of Preston reporting smoke and the fire brigade being called out, but I also heard there was a trackside fire at Winsford. Don't know if there were two incidents but it might explain why the 1800 Colne train didn't leave on time if the line was shut briefly. Most of the trains going onto Wigan seemed to be held at Preston (probably because of the Winsford incident) and I would say there was no space for Blackpool trains to come in and therefore cancelled. I ended up on the 1820 Hazel Grove which amazingly left on time, but the 1717 Euston was still being held.

So probably not connected to the other incidents then, just another bit of pain!
Good example, though, how at times of disruption services to the extremities like Blackpool seem to be seen as optional - I can see why, but it's no comfort when you're left crushed on a platform with no information, just a man telling you not to even think about crossing the yellow line. If we felt like cattle at Preston, God knows what it was like at Piccadilly.

 

[yorksrob]

Hopefully some Yorkshire bound passengers would have been directed to make use of the Lancaster - Leeds service.

 

[TUC]

On top of all of this, the Stockport-Manchester line was halted for 20-30 minutes around 1900 due to a trespasser on the line. (The guard informed us that it turned out to be someone walking to London!)

 

[dk1]

I travelled from Edinburgh Haymarket to Manchester Victoria via York on Thursday. 10:20 into York at 12:59 which was fine. 13:16 TPx arrived & it soon became apparent we where lacking a driver as caught up at Standedge. Passengers where advised to get the 13:24 Manchester Airport if the where in a hurry. Eventually the 13:16 was cancelled. As I wanted Victoria for my hotel anyway I spent the next Pleasent 45 mins in the Costa on the footbridge watching the comings & goings. Caught the following 14:15 which was only delayed 20mins following another TPx through the affected tunnel. As closely behind another this train wasn't crowded, had regular passing trolley catering & a helpful crew. After having the events explained to them, most of the passengers felt more sorry for the poor workmen having to repair that broken rail in those horrible tunnel conditions.

 

[Crossover]

Got caught up in the tailend of the disruption last night travelling from Birchwood to Seamer. Had 1st Advance for the 18.50 from Birchwood. Train arrived about 40 mins late, and proceeded to loose more time all the way. Train was 6 carriages and full but not standing. Usually 1st Class is nearly empty at this time, but not last night. (And everyone was entitled to 1st Class)

Considering the level of disruption I think I was fairly lucky. However when we arrived at York, at around 21.35, almost an hour late by this time things turned to farce.

We arrived on platform 5 as normal, sat there for a while, before being told there was no driver or guard. We were told to get off, the train then left on the Scarborough line. We were then told to go to Platform 2 (bay platform) where, we were told, a train would leave for Scarborough at around 22.20. The same six carriages as we had been told to leaxe 20 mins before arrived back in Platform 2, it was split and the front 3 then left for Scarborough with me sat in the same seat as I had been from Birchwood.

Why didnt they just leave us on the train then move those in the back 3 to the front 3?

Also how do you claim a delay repay on an mTicket (Only just started using mTickets, so its the first time I have needed to claim)

Mike

It looks like there was a bit of set swapping going on.

They would have probably needed platform 5 clearing and the shunt into p2 is unlikely to be signalled for passenger use

It seems that what they actually did was probably swap all the passengers off the 20:42 from Piccadilly (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y00122/2015/11/19/advanced), who arrived at York p5, also onto the set on p2 and ran it as a continuation of the previous service. I have come across such things happening before and thus you cannot trust the platform indications on RTT.

I would suspect at the late time of a Thursday night out of summer, the train to Scarborough would have been pretty empty
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

P4 isn't one of these - as I failed to mention!

Plat 4 does see regular 8 car 350's in service as this is the oft used picc bound platform. P2 is used for the scottish bound services but the back set of doors need to be locked out of use due to the length of the train and the platform. Its P3 that cannot accomodate 8car 350's due to the signal overlaps.

On the first day of 350 operations, we arrived on p4 but with the back set locked out. However, we were at the back, were pretty much platformed (back cab door on the ramp) and as soon as we arrived, a stopper left from p5 just behind us. I believe they have done something since (using more of the platform towards Piccadilly) that an 8 car can be fully platformed now (sensibly, given those units have UDS*, not SDO**). There are, however, a couple of signals on p4 I think (gimmea50anyday may be able to advise better than I) so maybe one hadn't been cleared. Under normal circumstances though, p4 would easily take a 6 car 185

*Unit DeSelect
**Selective Door Operation

 

[ffm]

TPE made a complete dog's dinner of customer service due to this. I arrived at York at 20:32 ready to catch the 20:40 Scarborough service. Boards showed it as running 55 minutes late. At the main board area (beside Burger King) were other passengers, some of whom had been there over an hour already. TPE had no management presence and one guard was trying to help. Utter incompetence by Control, not like they hadn't known earlier. Very, very annoyed.

At 21:10, with the 20:40 not yet at Leeds (realtime trains) many of us caught the Malton bus. Hen we got to Malton there were quite a number of customers wandering around the station wondering what to do, that 20:40, due 21:04, was still missing, by then it was 22:10

 

[wensley]

TPE made a complete dog's dinner of customer service due to this. I arrived at York at 20:32 ready to catch the 20:40 Scarborough service. Boards showed it as running 55 minutes late. At the main board area (beside Burger King) were other passengers, some of whom had been there over an hour already. TPE had no management presence and one guard was trying to help. Utter incompetence by Control, not like they hadn't known earlier. Very, very annoyed.

At 21:10, with the 20:40 not yet at Leeds (realtime trains) many of us caught the Malton bus. Hen we got to Malton there were quite a number of customers wandering around the station wondering what to do, that 20:40, due 21:04, was still missing, by then it was 22:10

There had certainly been no Scarborough passengers there for that length of time, the 1940 left RT from York with a fresh set and crew!

The one Team Leader present did a good job in the circumstances, although in my opinion the lack of support from TPE Control throughout (particularly in arranging road transport) was especially bad.

The Team Leader and two Traincrew managers at York put in very long days to try and get some normality for passengers, although sadly sourcing units and crew was so hard due to the extent of the disruption this pretty much became a full time occupation for the evening. As a result a platform presence was hard to maintain.

VT were pretty good as passing info to TPE customers, but as the night wore on and info from TPE Control became even more sparse then this became tricky!

I always play by the rule of giving folk the facts, even if you can't solve the problem quickly, let folk know and they're generally fine. In this case the TOC Controllers didn't seem to support the frontline staff in doing this while they recovered the service...

 

[BurtonM]

Under normal circumstances though, p4 would easily take a 6 car 185

I've been doing some thinking - the 185 stopping at the 3 car mark is the only explanation I can think of. I remember looking at the train and thinking 'it's stopped short...'.