Major Projects that Need Doing

[Waverley125]

Since there's no general thread, i thought I'd start one dedicated to discussing all the major infrastructure projects that need doing on our railways.

Reading remodelling: Station is badly overcrowded dueing rush hour and is a bugger to operate. Proper station redesign needed, and Crossrail needs extending into the new station.

Crossrail 1 & 2: Needs to be done to reduce congestion on cross-capital tube journeys. Needs OHL equipment and to be based on the RER in paris. Crossrail 1should serve Southend/Ebbsfleet-Reading and Crossrail 2 Peterborough/Bedford-South London

Birmingham remodelling: New Street is unfit for purpose as a gateway to the city, is has become even more unpleasant to use than Euston and is a horrible eyesore. It's also confused between its role as a cross-city interchange and a mainline express stop. Snow Hill also needs remodelling to increase capacitry & accomodate the Midland Metro expansion. All Birmingham Terminating Trains, whether Virgin, London Midland or Chiltern should be shifted into the terminating platforms at Moor Street (which would need electrifying) while both stations are rebuilt.

Electrification.

Midland Mainline is the obvious candidate as it's the 3rd northbound line, and could be served by a second batch of class 91s & Mk4s (it doesn't need pendolinos and the 225s are a better riding environment). London-Nottingham would be a good start, followed by Leicester-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield-Barnsley-Leeds. I would imagine that the existing meridians could be converted to electric traction but i stand to be corrected on that.

The Liverpool-Scarborough line would also be a good pick, as would Ely-Birmingham New Street via Peterborough, Leicester & Nuneaton. The latter is a major freight line and could allow 66s to be replaced by 90s. Norwich-Liverpool would be another candidate. It's an overcrowded line and the main commuter route for Peterborough, Nottingham, Sheffield & Manchester commuters from the south and east.

Finally, Waverley-Queen Street to allow Scotrail some EMUs on the Edinburgh-Glasgow express. NXEC services could also be moved out of Central, freeing up capacity there.

 

[laseandre]

NXEC services could also be moved out of Central, freeing up capacity there.

Have you seen the length of the platforms at Q. St? They're tiny! they can barely hold 6 cars. When the NMT came in it blocked the portal of Cowlairs!

 

[thefab444]

Where do you propose the money for all this comes from? And where are we supposed to buy these new 91s... didn't they destroy the jigs ages ago?

For electrification... why should another London - North line be electrified, surely the GWML is the obvious candidate seeing as part has already been done, with CrossRail to Reading the first section will already be done. At least to Oxford/Westbury to allow electric units on locals surely.

 

[bluenoxid]

Since there's no general thread, i thought I'd start one dedicated to discussing all the major infrastructure projects that need doing on our railways.

Reading remodelling: Station is badly overcrowded dueing rush hour and is a bugger to operate. Proper station redesign needed, and Crossrail needs extending into the new station.

Crossrail 1 & 2: Needs to be done to reduce congestion on cross-capital tube journeys. Needs OHL equipment and to be based on the RER in paris. Crossrail 1should serve Southend/Ebbsfleet-Reading and Crossrail 2 Peterborough/Bedford-South London

Birmingham remodelling: New Street is unfit for purpose as a gateway to the city, is has become even more unpleasant to use than Euston and is a horrible eyesore. It's also confused between its role as a cross-city interchange and a mainline express stop. Snow Hill also needs remodelling to increase capacitry & accomodate the Midland Metro expansion. All Birmingham Terminating Trains, whether Virgin, London Midland or Chiltern should be shifted into the terminating platforms at Moor Street (which would need electrifying) while both stations are rebuilt.

Electrification.

Midland Mainline is the obvious candidate as it's the 3rd northbound line, and could be served by a second batch of class 91s & Mk4s (it doesn't need pendolinos and the 225s are a better riding environment). London-Nottingham would be a good start, followed by Leicester-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield-Barnsley-Leeds. I would imagine that the existing meridians could be converted to electric traction but i stand to be corrected on that.

The Liverpool-Scarborough line would also be a good pick, as would Ely-Birmingham New Street via Peterborough, Leicester & Nuneaton. The latter is a major freight line and could allow 66s to be replaced by 90s. Norwich-Liverpool would be another candidate. It's an overcrowded line and the main commuter route for Peterborough, Nottingham, Sheffield & Manchester commuters from the south and east.

Finally, Waverley-Queen Street to allow Scotrail some EMUs on the Edinburgh-Glasgow express. NXEC services could also be moved out of Central, freeing up capacity there.

Right

Reading - sorted, funding virtually granted for it. Plans being presented to the people of Reading this month
Brum - contracts being lets for New Street. Final product may not achieve expectations
CrossRail - Passed as Act of parliament. Currently confirming funding in this tough environment

York - Scarborough would be tough to justify over other routes
Any new electric trains would be based on the IEP or whatever it has been branded as this week
Meridians would be cascaded.

 

[will1337]

A few routes from Manchester to the WCML and the core transpennine routes should really be electrified. It's absolute madness having 185s doing majority electrified routes.

 

[djw1981]

In general that is a list of projects due to happen in the next 5-10years anyway.......

EDB-GLQ electrification
Reading remodelling
Crossrail 1


Ref a new build of cl91, who now owns what was GEC?

 

[The Planner]

Since there's no general thread, i thought I'd start one dedicated to discussing all the major infrastructure projects that need doing on our railways.

Reading remodelling: Station is badly overcrowded dueing rush hour and is a bugger to operate. Proper station redesign needed, and Crossrail needs extending into the new station.

As already stated, job done here, the interlocking gets sorted in 2010 and control shifted to the new Thames Valley signalling centre at Didcot. The old box gets demolished and re-modelling starts in earnest, 14 platforms, plenty of dive-unders, job done in 2015.

Birmingham remodelling: New Street is unfit for purpose as a gateway to the city, is has become even more unpleasant to use than Euston and is a horrible eyesore. It's also confused between its role as a cross-city interchange and a mainline express stop. Snow Hill also needs remodelling to increase capacitry & accomodate the Midland Metro expansion. All Birmingham Terminating Trains, whether Virgin, London Midland or Chiltern should be shifted into the terminating platforms at Moor Street (which would need electrifying) while both stations are rebuilt.

The station is getting a facelift, but the workings themselves arent being touched. Id love to see you get all the existing terminating stuff into Moor St platforms, even with the chords that are planned from the Camp Hills. Its not confused at all, it needs to be both a commuter and long distance station, how else are you supposed to interchange ?? Im not sure what expanding Snow Hill will do either.

Electrification.

Midland Mainline is the obvious candidate as it's the 3rd northbound line, and could be served by a second batch of class 91s & Mk4s (it doesn't need pendolinos and the 225s are a better riding environment). London-Nottingham would be a good start, followed by Leicester-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield-Barnsley-Leeds. I would imagine that the existing meridians could be converted to electric traction but i stand to be corrected on that.

Again, if anything gets done it will be out to the West initially. Absoloutely no point in electrifying the Haven Ports - West Mids route, 66s more than cope with that.

 

[Waverley125]

If you electrify the GWML though it could only go to Exeter, as IMO the south Devon banks won't sustain OHL-it'll come down in the storms. And seawater running through 25kV overhead then down onto the street below? Too risky, even if the risk is only tiny. Electrifying to Oxford would be a good idea, thankyou. As for the IEP i think it's a bit of a white elephant really. There seems to be an overwhelming idea we need a tilting train with canted sides and 1/3-2/3 doors, when we need an updated version of the 225, which, after nearly 20 years service, is still the most comfortable long-distance train running.

As for funding, I don't know where it will come from. This is just to discuss projects that we think ought to be done.

And while we're on the subject, a new station building & platform 4 for peterborough. One bi-di avoiding line is enough considering that almost all except GC & HT trains stop there. That'll allow NXEC trains to through the station on a virtually straight path and free up 3 plats for FCC trains.

Regarding GLQ thanks, didn't realise the platforms were that short.

 

[Coradia]

In terms of electrification of certain routes, some stations would need to be altered. The bridge at Loughborough isn't high enough for cables to pass underneath, and that 'big dark bridge' at Nottingham is a little dodgy.

 

[djw1981]

But if we are talking or proijects without reference to budget, why not divert away from Dawlish and thus we can keep OHLE on GWML.... and avoid teh issues of line flooding.

 

[will1337]

Is the Severn Tunnel too low for OHLE? I'd have thought that Padd - Bristol/Cardiff would be a lot more worthwhile in terms of cost benefit than the Reading - Exeter line.

 

[djw1981]

They could go with a solid caternary (as per mound tunnel at Edinburgh Waverley) instead of OHLE.

 

[furryfeet]

has funding and timescales been agreed yet for

a) swindon - kemble re-doubling

b) cotswold line re-doubling ?

c) double track from carlisle to durran hill junction ?

 

[Ben]

Sort out Guide Bridge!!

15mph PSR - Pathetic!

 

[djw1981]

Salford Crescent curve?

Electric horseshoe north of Leeds

Upgrade the OHLE as far as Skipton

 

[The Planner]

has funding and timescales been agreed yet for

a) swindon - kemble re-doubling

b) cotswold line re-doubling ?

c) double track from carlisle to durran hill junction ?

a) down the pan at the mo, wasnt included in the Dft funding. Originally envisaged for the diversion for some big Severn Tunnel work, but then discovered it couldnt be completed until after the tunnel work was finished, doh..

b) still bring planned

c) dont know !

 

[Phoenix]

Since there's no general thread, i thought I'd start one dedicated to discussing all the major infrastructure projects that need doing on our railways.

Reading remodelling: Station is badly overcrowded dueing rush hour and is a bugger to operate. Proper station redesign needed, and Crossrail needs extending into the new station.

Crossrail 1 & 2: Needs to be done to reduce congestion on cross-capital tube journeys. Needs OHL equipment and to be based on the RER in paris. Crossrail 1should serve Southend/Ebbsfleet-Reading and Crossrail 2 Peterborough/Bedford-South London

Birmingham remodelling: New Street is unfit for purpose as a gateway to the city, is has become even more unpleasant to use than Euston and is a horrible eyesore. It's also confused between its role as a cross-city interchange and a mainline express stop. Snow Hill also needs remodelling to increase capacitry & accomodate the Midland Metro expansion. All Birmingham Terminating Trains, whether Virgin, London Midland or Chiltern should be shifted into the terminating platforms at Moor Street (which would need electrifying) while both stations are rebuilt.

Electrification.

Midland Mainline is the obvious candidate as it's the 3rd northbound line, and could be served by a second batch of class 91s & Mk4s (it doesn't need pendolinos and the 225s are a better riding environment). London-Nottingham would be a good start, followed by Leicester-Derby-Chesterfield-Sheffield-Barnsley-Leeds. I would imagine that the existing meridians could be converted to electric traction but i stand to be corrected on that.

The Liverpool-Scarborough line would also be a good pick, as would Ely-Birmingham New Street via Peterborough, Leicester & Nuneaton. The latter is a major freight line and could allow 66s to be replaced by 90s. Norwich-Liverpool would be another candidate. It's an overcrowded line and the main commuter route for Peterborough, Nottingham, Sheffield & Manchester commuters from the south and east.

Finally, Waverley-Queen Street to allow Scotrail some EMUs on the Edinburgh-Glasgow express. NXEC services could also be moved out of Central, freeing up capacity there.

It's all very well and dandy to suggest these but sorry you cant just say lets shove a new set of 91's on a newly electrified MML and do you know how much electrification costs it's okay when it's only a few stops on a double track but not for a hundred miles of a quaddruple track.

overall I see the point in your ideas but you need to take a few to the drawing board.

 

[Waverley125]

true some of them are projects off in the great blue yonder, which won't be completed for a great while. Some, such as Crossrail, aren't. A smaller one that i failed to ad would be the Peterborough redevelopment. Currently it's very cramped behind the GN Hotel, has a small awkward concourse and is generally an eyesore. There's been talk of redoin the station as part of the queensgate masterplan (which would also involve the moving off the bus station onto what is currently the great Northern Hotel, with shops going over the tracks and access from Midland Road. A new station building on the current site, new platform 4 and bridge would be very welcome additions.

 

[me123]

Electrification across Scotland will be welcome, and I would expect the main routes to be done in 20 years, with only rural routes still diesel. I'd like to see MML electrified to a point also; certainly a good candidate now with St. P Intl. The 91s mentioned could be dispaced from the ECML with the coming of ICE.

I'd also like to see a fast Carstairs avoiding line; not as priority, but it would save loads of time going from Glasgow down the East Coast.

 

[Phoenix]

One thing that is need is a west-east electricfication scheme for example Nuneaton to peterborough or even continued onto the GEML .
Also the re-opening of the oxford -cambridge line which would bring emense benefits.
Although there are definatly projects on a grand scale which I should have included I honestly think rather than full whack approach I think our system needs to be handled carefully and we need well planned improvements.

 

[Donny Dave]

For electrification... why should another London - North line be electrified, surely the GWML is the obvious candidate seeing as part has already been done, with CrossRail to Reading the first section will already be done. At least to Oxford/Westbury to allow electric units on locals surely.

10 miles or so of the GWML compared to however many of the MML to Luton (don't know the exact mileage of the top of my head). Also, if the MML is electrified, then that will leave Derby - Birmingham and Sheffield - Doncaster/Leeds and Leeds - York, then the majority of the AXC network would be electrified.

This paves the way for Birmingham - Bristol/Reading to be electrified, and that will then make a very strong case for the rest of the GWML to be electrified.

Other things that could be done is to remodel Marshgate Jn at Doncaster to allow higher approach speeds from Leeds and Scunthorpe/Hull, and also completely upgrade* the line from Brocklesby Jn - Barnetby - Scunthorpe/Lincoln.

Other things that need doing (on the ECML) is quadrupling the track from Huntingdon right through to Newcastle (with additional passing loops after that), Welwyn Viaduct, and Hitchen Junction rebuilt. Oh, while I'm thinking about it, all the OHLE on the ECML could be upgraded so the wires don't come down as often, and seeing as I've suggested that the MML should be electrified, infill electrification is done on the local routes around Leeds and York.

I could go on and on, but in my opinion, London, the West Midlands and the WCML has had more than enough money chucked at it in the past few years. It's time to spend the money elsewhere upgrading the network instead of the same few places year after year.

* By upgrade, I really mean a full rebuild, with 4 tracks from Brocklesby Junction, the layout modified to allow higher speeds, 4 aspect signalling, layout improvements at Wrawby Junction and Barnetby and increased line speeds.

 

[rail-britain]

Electrification across Scotland will be welcome, and I would expect the main routes to be done in 20 years, with only rural routes still diesel. I'd like to see MML electrified to a point also; certainly a good candidate now with St. P Intl. The 91s mentioned could be dispaced from the ECML with the coming of ICE.

I'd also like to see a fast Carstairs avoiding line; not as priority, but it would save loads of time going from Glasgow down the East Coast.

Not sure what electrification across Scotland means, but there are three main priorities at the moment
Glasgow Suburban; Barrhead / East Kilbride, Paisley Canal, Cumbernauld, and Glasgow QS - Haymarket
There was a proposal to extend ECML electrification from Edinburgh to Aberdeen, but that seems to be pie in the sky!

Ironically, there is a fast Carstairs avoiding line, it's to the south of Motherwell and north of Carstairs, albeit at present it is single line with a typical speed limit of 75mph, but with electrification this could be upgraded
Alternatively, the Shotts route could be electrified rather than the simple route upgrade that is planned

 

[me123]

^Hmm, didn't know of a fast Carstairs line... but if it were upgraded, I could see a great potential for future use. GLC-EDB possible in the same time as GLQ-EDB would be used by connecting passengers I'm sure, and there is certainly demand for travel from Motherwell. By combining NXEC and XC, an hourly service on the line would be well used if you could speed it up a tad, and the obvious solution IMO is to avoid Carstairs.

As for my "electrification across Scotland"... well, I'd heard that most if not all of Glasgow was in the pipeline, with Edinburgh West as well (with Bathgate and E-G on the way, and the potential for the Shotts line to be electrified rather easily). Stirling would probably be the next "port of call" for OHLE, probably going up to Alloa and Dunblane, although this last bit is simply an educated guess.

 

[djw1981]

Ironically, there is a fast Carstairs avoiding line, it's to the south of Motherwell and north of Carstairs, albeit at present it is single line with a typical speed limit of 75mph, but with electrification this could be upgraded
Alternatively, the Shotts route could be electrified rather than the simple route upgrade that is planned

I'm interested... this is not shown in the QUAIL/Trackmaps 5th Ed, nor 4th Ed. There is the Up Loop which bypasses Carstairs platforms, from the Cobbinshaw lines, and Up Through Siding to the Up Main.

 

[class 313]

It's all very well and dandy to suggest these but sorry you cant just say lets shove a new set of 91's on a newly electrified MML and do you know how much electrification costs it's okay when it's only a few stops on a double track but not for a hundred miles of a quaddruple track.

overall I see the point in your ideas but you need to take a few to the drawing board.

MML is mainly double track...

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Throughout the network, wouldn't we benefit from more flyovers (to avoid blocking the opposite lines for all movements across it)? There must be hundreds across the UK that restrict traffic (and planning) many times a day.
And if built, they could be designed for higher speeds than the existing crossings.

If we prioritise those crossovers which are already on tight curves and which have frequent long-distance, high speed passenger traffic, then it gets interesting! Yes, Doncaster as mentioned above, and how about Westerleigh junction (n of Bristol Parkway)?

 

[me123]

Throughout the network, wouldn't we benefit from more flyovers (to avoid blocking the opposite lines for all movements across it)? There must be hundreds across the UK that restrict traffic (and planning) many times a day.

Hitchin comes to mind here; I wonder how many minutes of delay that junction causes on a daily basis; I'm sure it's rather high.

 

[rail-britain]

I'm interested... this is not shown in the QUAIL/Trackmaps 5th Ed, nor 4th Ed. There is the Up Loop which bypasses Carstairs platforms, from the Cobbinshaw lines, and Up Through Siding to the Up Main.

There is a non-electrified line that leaves the southbound WCML just before Law Junction and passes under the Wishaw line
However, I have now found that the line doesn't seem to go anywhere, probably been lifted recently, but when I last looked at a map it rejoined the Shotts line near Fauldhouse

Transport Scotland electrification proposals :
Forming part of the STPR, due for implentation during 2009
Part 1 : Electrification Haymarket - Falkirk High - Glasgow QS
Diversionery electrification now included in the plan, to include via Cumbernauld and via Falkirk Grahamston
Proposal to extend this electrification from Greenhilll to Stirling and possibly Dunblane, Glasgow QS to Maryhill
Divert the Stirling, Dunblane, and Alloa services to Glasgow QS Low Level

To extend the Glasgow - Gourock rewiring (now commenced) and Glasgow - Glasgow Airport to include Paisley Canal

New projects to include Barrhead / Kilmarnock / East Kilbride
Whifflet, with services diverted via Glasgow Central Low Level

 

[me123]

I think I know what one you mean, M8 internet. If there was a reasonably high-speed junction at either end (50-60mph) and the line was fast enough (90mph)I could see that route becoming more popular. So few trains a day actually use Carstairs anyway; if a service was needed there I don't see why the 322s still couldn't stop there.

Of course, this certainly ain't top priority ATM! The speed down that way is still enough to keep me using the line more frequently and it is still cheaper for me to go to MTH than to go through GLQ.

 

[rail-britain]

I think I know what one you mean, M8 internet. If there was a reasonably high-speed junction at either end (50-60mph) and the line was fast enough (90mph)I could see that route becoming more popular. So few trains a day actually use Carstairs anyway; if a service was needed there I don't see why the 322s still couldn't stop there

Ironically, when Carstairs was served by joining / splitting InterCity trains the number of passengers was quite amazing, especially on a Saturday
With a Strathclyde Day Tripper I used to get the 09:xx Glasgow - Carstairs (Manchester) and the 10:xx (Manchester) Carstairs - Glasgow
During the week this was quiet, although the return service back to Glasgow would usually have at least one other person also getting on, but on a Saturday this was easily into double figures
However, with severe delays it was possible to get the bus to Lanark and travel back from there, although once I managed to miss the last train back to Glasgow from Lanark AND the last bus back to Carstairs, so had to get a taxi back to Carstairs and just wait the three hours for the delayed service!
Thankfully I just made the last train back to Barrhead

There is no way you could make two returns in a day to Carstairs now, so it's no wonder most people have dumped the station and travel from Lanark instead
What is not considered is the catchment that Carstairs has over Lanark, but with a complete lack of suitable parking at Carstairs that doesn't help either
If it wasn't for the solid foot bridge, the station would most definitely have closed (like Norton Bridge, oh sorry, it's still open but you can't get to the platform!)