Maintenance - toilets

[trainophile]

Last Weds I travelled from Manchester Picc to Hereford on a 3-coach ATW (158? sorry I'm not too clever with Class refs) train, which had the disabled access toilet signed as out of order, and one of the two small toilets blocked, stinking and unusable.

I'm on the same train today (1W44), and find it is still in exactly the same state.

Isn't there a routine for checking and cleaning the loos? Presumably someone replenishes the paper and soap, so you'd think they would notice a problem like this, if only from the smell!

Hard to believe it has been left in use like this for two days. Hope there's no football crowds later!

 

[krus_aragon]

Not particularly useful, but I can help you with the following:

A 3-car train with ATW will be a 175. Their 158s only exist in 2-car form (but may couple up for 4-, 6-car operations).

1W44 spent the night at Cardiff Canton, so the housekeeping / cleaning should have been done there.

 

[trainophile]

Thank you! The guard was appalled when some other passengers told him, and said he was putting in an official complaint. Wonder what the excuse will be.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It's Canton, what do you expect? The next thing you'll want is working air con & running engines! :roll:

 

[merlodlliw]

Not particularly useful, but I can help you with the following:

A 3-car train with ATW will be a 175. Their 158s only exist in 2-car form (but may couple up for 4-, 6-car operations).

1W44 spent the night at Cardiff Canton, so the housekeeping / cleaning should have been done there.

I know Chester is the main 175 garage,but do Canton staff empty the 175 retention tanks? out of interest.

 

[Hyphen]

I know Chester is the main 175 garage,but do Canton staff empty the 175 retention tanks? out of interest.

I believe so - they certainly have massive silos on-site at Canton for storing the effluent; presumably this is then taken away by somebody else!

 

[Crossover]

The problem is that once they're out, they won't get emptied. Not unusual to end up with TPE 185s to have all toilets out of use. Until they get to a tanking point, there isn't much to be done...can hardly just dump it anywhere :P

 

[trainophile]

The problem is that once they're out, they won't get emptied. Not unusual to end up with TPE 185s to have all toilets out of use. Until they get to a tanking point, there isn't much to be done...can hardly just dump it anywhere :P

Yes but from Weds pm to Sat morning? Apart from the blocked small loo being left in that state, nothing seems to have been done about the accessible one either.

It's over three hours between Manchester and Cardiff, so most passengers would make at least one trip to the toilet, never mind if the train was bound for Milford Haven or Carmarthen!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Isn't there any other suitable place on it's diagram where it could be moved into a siding and the effluent pumped out the tanks? People can't be too flushed about the state of the toilets in them units

 

[TheEdge]

Isn't there any other suitable place on it's diagram where it could be moved into a siding and the effluent pumped out the tanks? People can't be too flushed about the state of the toilets in them units

Generally no. Its only really the big maintenance depots that have CET equipment. There is a lot of infrastructure required to deal with the quantities of effluent in the tanks so its not just something that can be stuck at any stabling point.

 

[Clip]

Yes but from Weds pm to Sat morning? Apart from the blocked small loo being left in that state, nothing seems to have been done about the accessible one either.

It's over three hours between Manchester and Cardiff, so most passengers would make at least one trip to the toilet, never mind if the train was bound for Milford Haven or Carmarthen!

Same diagram but I doubt it was the exact same train. You yourself were unsure what class it was so how do you even know it was the same train?

 

[najaB]

Same diagram but I doubt it was the exact same train. You yourself were unsure what class it was so how do you even know it was the same train?

I think most people would be able to identify a train by its interior (e.g third seat on the left has a broken handle) even if they couldn't tell the class by its exterior.

 

[trainophile]

Same diagram but I doubt it was the exact same train. You yourself were unsure what class it was so how do you even know it was the same train?

It wasn't the same diagram, I was going south on Weds afternoon (1530 ex-MAN) and north on Sat morning (0649 ex-HFD). I recognised the sticker on the accessible toilet door, as it was not the usual type, and was in a strange position, so much so that on Weds I stood outside it for some time thinking it was engaged, before eventually spotting the small notice which was over by the 'door open' buttons. Also the two small toilets had the same one blocked, and (yuk alert) when I lifted the lid, thinking they must have cleared it by now (it wasn't marked as out of use), the 'level of contents' was as per Weds.

Happy to be corrected by someone who knows more about these things, but I was pretty sure it was the same train.

Me and class numbers are another matter entirely! I've never needed to know them except when posting on here, so consequently have never bothered to familiarise myself with them. I'm female btw, so perhaps not so interested in the technical side of rail travel. Must try harder!

I only found the headcode by looking on RTT, and I'm still unsure whether that relates to the physical train or its journey - in view of this thread I'm assuming it's the journey/diagram not the train? All tutorials welcome!

 

[krus_aragon]

I only found the headcode by looking on RTT, and I'm still unsure whether that relates to the physical train or its journey - in view of this thread I'm assuming it's the journey/diagram not the train? All tutorials welcome!

The headcode (and similar, related codes) relate to the end-to end service, i.e. "There will be a train going from Cardiff to Manchester at this time, this way, calling at these stations". A number of these will be grouped together into a diagram, which is effectively a unit/train's job list for the day. A unit doesn't necessarily finish the day where it started, so a unit will do different diagrams from day to day (and sometimes be kept in the depot for maintenance work).

Remember that units may get swapped off diagrams during the day, for a variety of reasons. In an ideal world, following your guard's complaint/report, your unit may have been swapped with a spare one at Crewe/Manchester, so it could be taken to Chester and have it's plumbing sorted.

 

[Erniescooper]

It wasn't the same diagram, I was going south on Weds afternoon (1530 ex-MAN) and north on Sat morning (0649 ex-HFD). I recognised the sticker on the accessible toilet door, as it was not the usual type, and was in a strange position, so much so that on Weds I stood outside it for some time thinking it was engaged, before eventually spotting the small notice which was over by the 'door open' buttons. Also the two small toilets had the same one blocked, and (yuk alert) when I lifted the lid, thinking they must have cleared it by now (it wasn't marked as out of use), the 'level of contents' was as per Weds.


Happy to be corrected by someone who knows more about these things, but I was pretty sure it was the same train.

Me and class numbers are another matter entirely! I've never needed to know them except when posting on here, so consequently have never bothered to familiarise myself with them. I'm female btw, so perhaps not so interested in the technical side of rail travel. Must try harder!

I only found the headcode by looking on RTT, and I'm still unsure whether that relates to the physical train or its journey - in view of this thread I'm assuming it's the journey/diagram not the train? All tutorials welcome!

Don't worry your eyesight is not letting you down and it was 175103 on both occasions. Canton and Holyhead can CET and tank units as well as Chester because some of the diagrams now involve staying away from Chester for days at a time and by the time 175103 finishes at Carmarthen tonight it will have been away from Chester for 8 days.

 

[leshuttle]

Worst is when this happens on a long-haul flight! Ten years ago flew back from Toronto to Manc only to find out half way through the flight that nobody in Toronto had emptied the tanks. Passengers were politely asked to keep outgoing matter to the minimum and we almost ended up stopping short at Shannon (Ireland) but luckily things didn't overflow despite brimming.

 

[trainophile]

ATW's website today:

JourneyCheck > Other Train Service Updates > Details

12:33 Manchester Piccadilly to Milford Haven due 19:25

Toilets are not available. Disabled toilets are not available.

Additional Facilities Information:
Toilet stops will be made as required.

Message Received :22/02/2015 12:53

Wonder if this is the same train. Really glad I'm not on it!

Edited to add: Many thanks for the headcode explanation krus aragon, that's really useful to know .

 

[Sadsmileyface]

There's any number of things that can can a toilet to be locked out of use. It could be a defect that requires parts to be ordered.

 

[6Gman]

This general problem - of units remaining in service with faulty toilets - has been discussed previously. Ultimately it comes down to:

Overall, would passengers prefer a train without toilets, or a cancelled train?

I suspect that most people would rather "hold on" than run an hour later!

Of course, if units were less intensively worked (I spent years as a unit diagrammer) there would be more opportunity to address problems that arise but that means either fewer services or more units.

And thus more cost.

 

[trainophile]

This general problem - of units remaining in service with faulty toilets - has been discussed previously. Ultimately it comes down to:

Overall, would passengers prefer a train without toilets, or a cancelled train?

I suspect that most people would rather "hold on" than run an hour later!

Of course, if units were less intensively worked (I spent years as a unit diagrammer) there would be more opportunity to address problems that arise but that means either fewer services or more units.

And thus more cost.

Not sure I'd prefer "holding on" from 1233 to 1925! Also, these "toilet stops"... how does the guard ensure that everyone who has left the train has returned before departing? If you had to run across a bridge to use the facilities you're not going to take your belongings with you, so it would be awful if the train left without you!

I wonder if you'd be allowed, with an Advance ticket, to wait for the next train in these circumstances?

 

[6Gman]

There's any number of things that can can a toilet to be locked out of use. It could be a defect that requires parts to be ordered.

It's also possible that some poor s*** at Canton or Chester spent half a night shift clearing the problem {not a fun job} only for some fool to put something down the toilet they shouldn't to recreate the blockage within hours.

 

[trainophile]

It's also possible that some poor s*** at Canton or Chester spent half a night shift clearing the problem {not a fun job} only for some fool to put something down the toilet they shouldn't to recreate the blockage within hours.

I'd be interested in the outcome, as it seems extraordinary that this identical situation either remained or recurred over a three day period.

 

[6Gman]

Not sure I'd prefer "holding on" from 1233 to 1925! Also, these "toilet stops"... how does the guard ensure that everyone who has left the train has returned before departing? If you had to run across a bridge to use the facilities you're not going to take your belongings with you, so it would be awful if the train left without you!

I wonder if you'd be allowed, with an Advance ticket, to wait for the next train in these circumstances?

Nobody would describe it as an ideal arrangement but what are the alternatives?

a) Swop with the Mcr - Llandudno 175 at Piccadilly? Not sure about the timings and the shunt moves that would be necessary.
b) Swop with the Crewe - Chester 150 at Crewe? Possible, but would mean min. 12-15 min delay from Crewe and would leave you with a 150 vice 175 in S Wales, and a 175 vice 150 at Chester. Oh, and your 3 car 175 is replaced by a 2 car 150!
c) Run it toiletless to Cardiff and hope Canton have got something available to go forward. Toilet stops at Crewe & Shrewsbury (toilets on same platform) and Hereford (not sure of toilet location).
d) Tell everybody to wait for next train and run it as ECS to Cardiff.

So which would you choose?

 

[trainophile]

Nobody would describe it as an ideal arrangement but what are the alternatives?

a) Swop with the Mcr - Llandudno 175 at Piccadilly? Not sure about the timings and the shunt moves that would be necessary.
b) Swop with the Crewe - Chester 150 at Crewe? Possible, but would mean min. 12-15 min delay from Crewe and would leave you with a 150 vice 175 in S Wales, and a 175 vice 150 at Chester. Oh, and your 3 car 175 is replaced by a 2 car 150!
c) Run it toiletless to Cardiff and hope Canton have got something available to go forward. Toilet stops at Crewe & Shrewsbury (toilets on same platform) and Hereford (not sure of toilet location).
d) Tell everybody to wait for next train and run it as ECS to Cardiff.

So which would you choose?

Two ladies cublcles on southbound, gents is over the bridge on northbound side. At least the proper bridge is now back in use, as the gents is just at the foot of it, unlike the temporary bridge which would mean a five minute dash!

I'd say the best thing would be to inform passengers of the situation before departure, giving them the option to wait for a later train, or if possible use a different route to get to their destination. A lot of people genuinely panic at the idea of not having a loo available, especially if they are going to be on board for a long time.

Rotten timing too, the last day of half term when everyone plus kids is returning home. Adults can probably cope with waiting for the next toilet stop, but young kids would be a different matter.

 

[Crossover]

Not sure I'd prefer "holding on" from 1233 to 1925! Also, these "toilet stops"... how does the guard ensure that everyone who has left the train has returned before departing? If you had to run across a bridge to use the facilities you're not going to take your belongings with you, so it would be awful if the train left without you!

I wonder if you'd be allowed, with an Advance ticket, to wait for the next train in these circumstances?

I've had this happen with a variety of outcomes. Most recently was a Manchester to somewhere York way (late night so wouldn't be going much further) on a TPE 185 and it had no working loos - the guard arranged a toilet stop at Stalybridge and the train was held for a few minutes for people to get across platform 1 to the toilets and back on again. Some time ago I was on a TPE train from Edinburgh to Manchester on an East Coast ML diversions - one toilet permanently OOU and the other went somewhere around Drem. The guard made it sound like he was doing us all a favour by arranging a break in Newcastle - sadly for him I, along with some others, knew it was a fortunate coincidence as the train had a 15 minute waitover before continuing south. Another unit got bolted on at Newcastle but it didn't stop people trying to find a working toilet on our set!

I recall also having another service, maybe on XC, with issues, but it was earlier in the day and I recall the guard saying the train would not wait for anyone who got off to use the facilities.

Actually, I have just thought of another couple - first about 2 weeks ago - guess what, TPE again! This time a double 185 set and the guard made many many announcements advising to travel in the rear set as it was the only one with working toilets. Another was a TPE a few years ago where the 185 left Scarborough advertised with no working facilities, but the set was swapped at York (sans reservations of course)

So yes, a variety of problems (mostly TPE!) with a variety of ways of sorting the problem!

Don't worry your eyesight is not letting you down and it was 175103 on both occasions. Canton and Holyhead can CET and tank units as well as Chester because some of the diagrams now involve staying away from Chester for days at a time and by the time 175103 finishes at Carmarthen tonight it will have been away from Chester for 8 days.

I was going to suggest it may be an unfortunate coincidence that the toilets were broken again as I couldn't see a train being out in service for 3 days with no working toilets (or at least, even if it was out, for the diagrams to be rejigged to get it to a tanking point), but maybe it was the case!

 

[trainophile]

All a bit worrying, if just one person has experienced so many incidents. Particularly re. Scarborough as I'm off there from Liverpool next month!

Idea convert all the guards' cabs to Portaloos! (Just joking )

 

[Blindtraveler]

Someone mentioned upthread about needing a lot of infrastructure to deal with retention tanks, could a member in the know enlighten us? As to may simple way of thinking it would surely be a case of having a bulk tank on wheels at major stations, connecting it up and sucking. The tank could then be taken away by van to, well, ur, somewhere.

 

[Crossover]

All a bit worrying, if just one person has experienced so many incidents. Particularly re. Scarborough as I'm off there from Liverpool next month!

Idea convert all the guards' cabs to Portaloos! (Just joking )

Do bear in mind my experiences probably go back some 4 or 5 years, so is probably not too representative - maybe I am just unlucky. TPE are by far the worst offenders though!

And you can try, but given it is the drivers cab, we may not be going very far

Someone mentioned upthread about needing a lot of infrastructure to deal with retention tanks, could a member in the know enlighten us? As to may simple way of thinking it would surely be a case of having a bulk tank on wheels at major stations, connecting it up and sucking. The tank could then be taken away by van to, well, ur, somewhere.

I don't think anything on wheels will be an option - I don't know how large the CET tanks are on a train, but I would imagine it would be in the order of 100 litre plus - given the contents will be denser than water, you would have to work on a 1l = more than 1kg basis, so for emptying a full tank, you have a shed load of weight! I also imagine it isn't necessarily the cleanest job in the world either, so not something best done at a station

 

[trainophile]

Perhaps there is something to be said for the old 'dump it on the tracks' system, which I believe is still in use in some areas. If a chemical of some sort was added to the flush water to hasten decomposition and eliminate smells then nature would soon deal with the residue when it rains.

Out of interest, should a completely emptied tank be adequate to hold the average output from a 3-coach train at full capacity on a seven hour journey?

 

[Crossover]

Perhaps there is something to be said for the old 'dump it on the tracks' system, which I believe is still in use in some areas. If a chemical of some sort was added to the flush water to hasten decomposition and eliminate smells then nature would soon deal with the residue when it rains.

Out of interest, should a completely emptied tank be adequate to hold the average output from a 3-coach train at full capacity on a seven hour journey?

It's horrible for track workers to work in though, and by all accounts it doesn't do the ballast much good as it fuses it together. Also tends to get dumped through stations which isn't nice

I have just been having a read and it seems each flush uses around 0.5 litres of water, so it will add up to a fair bit in total over a number of uses!

ATOC suggest 1 toilet per 85 people on IC services and 1 toilet per 125 people on commuter so I'd imagine that the toilets should be able to service a train load of people quite happily