Mainline Steam

[tiptoptaff]

Oh come on, who here hasn't thought they'd love to do it?

How do you go about getting to drive steam traction on the mainline? I know it's with DBS, but is there a seperate link, taken on specifically for the steam role?
Or do you have to be part of the "chosen few" that actually get to work for DBS, learn your trade on a preserved line, then offer to book on a turn on locos and routes that you're passed out on?

I know WCR have a saftey case for steam, so is that another option? (and again, same questions apply)

Thanks,

 

[E&W Lucas]

Ews- existing drivers trained internally. Very small numbers, and I haven't heard about any new ones for a while.

West Coast ditto for the most part, but their people are largely retired drivers working as and when. They have recruited firemen from preservation and support crews, on a very selective basis. A handful of these were qualified to drive recently, on a very limited basis. You are talking about individuals who have fired for them for a good few years, and who have many years of experience in preservation. Most of them also already in the NYMR ESL Valley link.

One observation. Steam does not fit with today's inch perfect railway. If your family depends on you driving trains, it is best avoided on NR. Too much chance of messing up. (from someone with over 20 years of working on the things).

 

[tiptoptaff]

Ews- existing drivers trained internally. Very small numbers, and I haven't heard about any new ones for a while.

West Coast ditto for the most part, but their people are largely retired drivers working as and when. They have recruited firemen from preservation and support crews, on a very selective basis. A handful of these were qualified to drive recently, on a very limited basis. You are talking about individuals who have fired for them for a good few years, and who have many years of experience in preservation. Most of them also already in the NYMR ESL Valley link.

One observation. Steam does not fit with today's inch perfect railway. If your family depends on you driving trains, it is best avoided on NR. Too much chance of messing up. (from someone with over 20 years of working on the things).

So the thing to take from this, is, as a 19 year old loco cleaner, who's only be at it for a couple of months so far, I have pretty much no hope in hell? Made moe so by the fact I have owt to do with the NYMR? I was just curious, whether it would be something realistically achieved in a career on the railawys. I fully expected it to take years, but I was thinking, someone like WCR have their own locomotives, and someone's go to look after them surely? Must be a starting point job somwehere....

 

[E&W Lucas]

So the thing to take from this, is, as a 19 year old loco cleaner, who's only be at it for a couple of months so far, I have pretty much no hope in hell? Made moe so by the fact I have owt to do with the NYMR? I was just curious, whether it would be something realistically achieved in a career on the railawys. I fully expected it to take years, but I was thinking, someone like WCR have their own locomotives, and someone's go to look after them surely? Must be a starting point job somwehere....

I would suggest building up knowledge by working for one of the more serious heritage railways, then offer your services to a mainline loco operating group. There isn't a job in it, unless you get yourself taken on as an apprentice fitter, etc. Of the drivers I mention, think early retired, or the owner of a well known steam engineering business. Limited to certain minor routes, eg West Highland.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I would suggest building up knowledge by working for one of the more serious heritage railways, then offer your services to a mainline loco operating group. There isn't a job in it, unless you get yourself taken on as an apprentice fitter, etc. Of the drivers I mention, think early retired, or the owner of a well known steam engineering business. Limited to certain minor routes, eg West Highland.

Whom would you define as serious? I'm currently with a fairly well known railway that now has some lions next door...
Well I suppose it answers the "is there a career in it" question, might be nice to do ad-hoc every so often at 75mph, rather than pottering up and down at barley over 20!!

 

[E&W Lucas]

Driving trains mainline, is essentially the preserve of professional train drivers. The best you can realistically hope for is support crew.

 

[notadriver]

Whom would you define as serious? I'm currently with a fairly well known railway that now has some lions next door...
Well I suppose it answers the "is there a career in it" question, might be nice to do ad-hoc every so often at 75mph, rather than pottering up and down at barley over 20!!

What's wrong with 20 mph? As a well known depot driver says - speed isn't everything! In any case there isn't such a thing as a 'casual' train driver. But on the roads you could be a casual bus/coach driver and drive up to 62 mph

 

[NI 271]

What's wrong with 20 mph? As a well known depot driver says - speed isn't everything! In any case there isn't such a thing as a 'casual' train driver. But on the roads you could be a casual bus/coach driver and drive up to 62 mph

Speed limit for buses on motorways is 70mph...

 

[notadriver]

The speed limiter will be set to 62 mph in all pcv vehicles manufactured after 1987 so that's the practical limit. If you want to drive more than 8 passengers around faster legally you can only do it driving a train.

PS : All vehicles with more than 8 seats including the driver must have a 62 mph speed limiter.

 

[E&W Lucas]

In any case there isn't such a thing as a 'casual' train driver.

There is - West Coast employ people on an "as and when" basis, which is why ASLEF doesn't like them very much!!

The difference is, they are virtually all retired, or moonlighting from other TOC's.

 

[Dave1987]

Deleted

 

[Legzr1]

But hey that's just my opinion.

If it's any consolation it's an opinion shared by many,many others.

Some recent RAIB reports make for truly terrifying reading hock:

 

[E&W Lucas]

Also the reason WCR have such an appalling safety record. Volunteers working on the mainline I don't think is a good idea. If a proffesional railwayman/woman makes a error/violation of the rules you can lose your job, whereas a volunteer could just walk away. There is no accountability. But hey that's just my opinion.

And yet again, you are totally ill informed!

The bulk of WCR's business is conducting tampers, etc. That type of out of course working, goes with a high risk of operating incidents, as I am sure some others amongst your more experienced driving colleagues will also advise you. Steam also, by the nature of the machine, carries a far higher risk.

There are no "volunteers" driving for WCR. There are four people who were not already mainline drivers, but they have qualified the old fashioned way on steam; by being a fireman, and they have done that for a heck of a lot longer than your boil in the bag course took. In fact, one of them was doing it for most of the 1960s! Steam is a totally different concept to modern traction, and the "time served" method of training is far more sensible. Thay can be unpredictable and dangerous machines, with some vices that you will not learn about in the classroom, and may only come across after several years working on them. I have worked with three of those people for many years, and I have come across the fourth. As an experienced mainline driver, I would have no reservations about any of them, certainly on the work for which they are being employed (Jacobite and Scarborough Spa).

I would agree, that someone for who driving is only a part time, non essential job, doesn't have the same motivation as those of us for which it supports our families. However, could be equally true of a retired driver working for a charter operator. Possibly more so, as they may have the "more relaxed" () attitude of some of the older BR generation. You are reliant on the professionalism of the individual, and that they have been adequately trained, for the task that they are performing.

 

[deltic1989]

The speed limiter will be set to 62 mph in all pcv vehicles manufactured after 1987 so that's the practical limit. If you want to drive more than 8 passengers around faster legally you can only do it driving a train.

PS : All vehicles with more than 8 seats including the driver must have a 62 mph speed limiter.

That's quicker than me. I'm limited to 56 mph.

 

[notadriver]

I don't think you're missing much Deltic1989. Once you get up to higher speeds you kind of get used to it.

As for the professionalism of retired drivers or those working a second job - would i not be right in saying that in the case of steam, they would be working as part of a team with others in the cab anyway ?

 

[Dave1987]

And yet again, you are totally ill informed!

The bulk of WCR's business is conducting tampers, etc. That type of out of course working, goes with a high risk of operating incidents, as I am sure some others amongst your more experienced driving colleagues will also advise you. Steam also, by the nature of the machine, carries a far higher risk.

There are no "volunteers" driving for WCR. There are four people who were not already mainline drivers, but they have qualified the old fashioned way on steam; by being a fireman, and they have done that for a heck of a lot longer than your boil in the bag course took. In fact, one of them was doing it for most of the 1960s! Steam is a totally different concept to modern traction, and the "time served" method of training is far more sensible. Thay can be unpredictable and dangerous machines, with some vices that you will not learn about in the classroom, and may only come across after several years working on them. I have worked with three of those people for many years, and I have come across the fourth. As an experienced mainline driver, I would have no reservations about any of them, certainly on the work for which they are being employed (Jacobite and Scarborough Spa).

I would agree, that someone for who driving is only a part time, non essential job, doesn't have the same motivation as those of us for which it supports our families. However, could be equally true of a retired driver working for a charter operator. Possibly more so, as they may have the "more relaxed" () attitude of some of the older BR generation. You are reliant on the professionalism of the individual, and that they have been adequately trained, for the task that they are performing.

Actually it was my close relative who has 35 yrs in the rail industry who has told me about the appalling record of WCR. And as Legzr1 says the RAIB reports for some of the incidents don't look too favourably on volunteers either. Ow and thanks for calling me a boil in the bag driver (like I've never heard that one before) if the old ways were better then why were they got rid of?

 

[Legzr1]

if the old ways were better then why were they got rid of?

£££.

I don't think it's a case of which training method is better as I know some excellent 'boil in the bag' drivers that would be a match for any of those 'still a second man into their late 50's' types but that's on the modern railway with modern traction.

Steam?

The old training model makes perfect sense.

 

[LCC106]

Drawing on a point made above I must say that boil in the bag (ouch) or not (or microwave as I was recently referred to ) I have worked very hard to get to where I am today. However, I'm not naive and I often ask for advice and draw on the experience of those qualified longer than myself... whether by 3 months or 40 years! What I'm saying is I recognise that many people have worked their way up from the footplate and will probably have forgotten more than I'll ever know but I do think your comment is a little unfair to those of us trying to forge a career on the modern railway just as so many others have done in the past!

 

[scotsman]

I suggest you get in with an owner of a mainline loco once you've got more experience on the footplate. You won't get a job - hell, you won't even get any money out of it - but you will get to follow the loco in the support coach, assist with watering, and eventually get footplate turns.

I have two friends who are both mainline support.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Actually it was my close relative who has 35 yrs in the rail industry

Means nothing - you could have worked in the industry for 35 years, and have no operational experience or understanding whatsoever.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

who has told me about the appalling record of WCR.

Anyone who had any operational understanding, would have pointed to the nature of the work that they do. As someone who is claiming to be a driver, I would have expected you to have recognised this too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

some of the incidents don't look too favourably on volunteers either.

What is your problem with volunteers?
Some "previous" on a heritage railway perhaps?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Drawing on a point made above I must say that boil in the bag (ouch) or not (or microwave as I was recently referred to ) I have worked very hard to get to where I am today.

Along with the so pleasant "Off the Street", I take them as a badge of honour!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suggest you get in with an owner of a mainline loco once you've got more experience on the footplate. You won't get a job - hell, you won't even get any money out of it - but you will get to follow the loco in the support coach, assist with watering, and eventually get footplate turns.

I have two friends who are both mainline support.

Exactly

 

[scotsman]

Can I just point out that unless the poster referring to WCRC's alleged poor safety record can substantiate their claim, then they are libeling WCRC and could possibly face legal action.

Secondly, I have worked as a steward for SRPS Railtours on many trains operated by WCRC, and I have never had any qualms with safety.

 

[Dave1987]

scotman it is called freedom of speech and you cannot face legal action for that but for your pleasure I have deleted my posts

EWS Lucas I'm fed up of being insulted so I'm gonna quit this conversation now. Facts are facts it's just you are not willing to acknowledge them.

 

[scotsman]

scotman it is called freedom of speech and you cannot face legal action for that but for your pleasure I have deleted my posts

It's libel. The forum could be sued for it. It's like accusing someone of being a paedophile (which I'm not) online. I can't prove it, but it damages their reputation, as people may think they molest children. Therefore, they can sue me for telling lies about them in a public arena.

 

[Dave1987]

It's libel. The forum could be sued for it. It's like accusing someone of being a paedophile (which I'm not) online. I can't prove it, but it damages their reputation, as people may think they molest children. Therefore, they can sue me for telling lies about them in a public arena.

You can express your opinion freely about anything! I suggest you look at the RAIB reports.

 

[E&W Lucas]

scotman it is called freedom of speech and you cannot face legal action for that but for your pleasure I have deleted my posts

EWS Lucas I'm fed up of being insulted so I'm gonna quit this conversation now. Facts are facts it's just you are not willing to acknowledge them.

If you are going to have any sort of railway career, learn to concentrate on what you are doing, and don't concern yourself with the perceived failings of others. Otherwise, you might just find yourself, on the wrong end of an incident.

 

[tiptoptaff]

The law of libel applies where claims are unfounded, and what is say is potentially damaging to the reputation of a pesron or company. for this, you can be sued. It differs from an opinion, for which there may be some supporting evidence. The example in this case being as follows:

If Dave1987 had said "WCR are dangerous and should not carry passengers", that is libleous. It is damaging the reputation of WCR and potentially causing them financial loss. For this, he could be sued.

However, as Dave1987 had said "From my interpretation of the RAIB reports I believe that WCR are dangerous..." that is not lible. Yes, it is damaging their reputation, however, it is an opinion formed on an interpretation of facts. For this he cannot be sued.

It is slightly more grey than the black and white of the lible of "he is a peodophile" because for Joe Bloggs to be called one and it not be libleous, he would need to have a formal conviction.

 

[Tomnick]

It'd be helpful, and make it sound less like unsubstantiated gibber, if specific RAIB reports were referenced though!

 

[Beveridges]

It'd be helpful, and make it sound less like unsubstantiated gibber, if specific RAIB reports were referenced though!

That sounds too time consuming and too much like hard work to me.

Searching through RIAB reports and finding where exactly it was that said it, then coming back on here to reference it.

It's easier to just come out with the statement that "somewhere" in the RAIB reports it said this. If people are that bothered, let them find out where it said it for themselves.

Not every post on a forum like this has to be of the highest possible quality. I could criticse many, many other posts and say how they could have been better written. It's only a forum, not Degree-level coursework.

 

[Tomnick]

Well I'm not going looking for it - I'm quite happy to carry on in the belief that WCRC chaps are just as competent and 'safe' as Drivers from the bigger FOCs and TOCs. Not sure where you've got the idea that I'm criticising the quality of Dave's writing, but it's pretty meaningless making statements based on "something that someone else read and told me about" - reference to specific incidents would carry a lot more weight.

 

[Dave1987]

If you are going to have any sort of railway career, learn to concentrate on what you are doing, and don't concern yourself with the perceived failings of others. Otherwise, you might just find yourself, on the wrong end of an incident.

Like I said facts are facts, if you are not willing to accept them then that is up to you but I have a clean driving record at the moment and will do my upmost to keep it that way. If I do ever have an incident there is the threat of losing my job. And that is the point! Volunteers can just walk away with no accountability.....