Mail article - I'm a bit puzzled?

[Howardh]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rshaw-slams-Virgin-Trains-charging-1-000.html

A BBC DJ has attacked Virgin Trains for charging almost £1,000 for a return first class rail fare.

Liz Kershaw attempted to book a train journey for friends to travel from Stockport to Ashford in Kent on Sunday.

But the 59-year-old broadcaster was shocked when she discovered the cost of a first class open return on the Virgin website was £951.20.

Sharing a photo of the fare on Twitter, she wrote: ‘Unbelievable! Are you SURE @VirginTrains??? #NorthernPowerhouseRail.’

It says she booked "for friends" but I can't see how many - so clearly the fare quoted is nothing like the fare for one person.
However on Trainline a 1st anytime return Manchester - Ashford is £573 which is reduced to £350 off-peak anytime return. Book to go this aftrenoon and return tomorrow on specific trains (1st) gets you down to under £300 if you MUST go first class. Dont think I can "fly to New York" for that - not walk-up anyway!
Anyhow, can anyone decpiher the article and try to explain what's going on as in where's this "£1000" come from?? Thanks!!

 

[Warwick]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rshaw-slams-Virgin-Trains-charging-1-000.html

It says she booked "for friends" but I can't see how many - so clearly the fare quoted is nothing like the fare for one person.
However on Trainline a 1st anytime return Manchester - Ashford is £573 which is reduced to £350 off-peak anytime return. Book to go this aftrenoon and return tomorrow on specific trains (1st) gets you down to under £300 if you MUST go first class. Dont think I can "fly to New York" for that - not walk-up anyway!
Anyhow, can anyone decpiher the article and try to explain what's going on as in where's this "£1000" come from?? Thanks!!

It's come from the Daily Mail hates trains and Liz Kershaw wants a bit of publicity.

 

[FenMan]

It's come from the Daily Mail hates trains and Liz Kershaw wants a bit of publicity.

I love trains, but the yield management operated by the TOCs seems locked in the past compared with airlines and hotels. I'm in Sydney at the moment, on business. I booked flights at 24 hours notice and flew with Cathay Pacific for £707 return. Over 50 per cent of the fare covers airport departure taxes. When 4 meals out and 4 meals back, with drinks, are factored in someone isn't making much money for flying me over 20,000 miles. But that's competition for you.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

1 anytime first class return (£573) + 1 railcard-discounted anytime first class return (£378.20) adds up to £951.20, the amount quoted.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I love trains, but the yield management operated by the TOCs seems locked in the past compared with airlines and hotels. I'm in Sydney at the moment, on business. I booked flights at 24 hours notice and flew with Cathay Pacific for £707 return. Over 50 per cent of the fare covers airport departure taxes. When 4 meals out and 4 meals back, with drinks, are factored in someone isn't making much money for flying me over 20,000 miles. But that's competition for you.

Thing is, most people I imagine don't book flights or hotels with just 24 hours notice (and certainly even less people just walk up without booking).
With the railways in the UK, a substantial percentage of travel is still walk up.
Add to that, unless you physically can't fit on the train, there are no allocated tickets that must be sold or they go unsold, then the yield management world changes quite a lot.

 

[AlterEgo]

I love trains, but the yield management operated by the TOCs seems locked in the past compared with airlines and hotels. I'm in Sydney at the moment, on business. I booked flights at 24 hours notice and flew with Cathay Pacific for £707 return. Over 50 per cent of the fare covers airport departure taxes. When 4 meals out and 4 meals back, with drinks, are factored in someone isn't making much money for flying me over 20,000 miles. But that's competition for you.

That’s not correct about airport departure taxes. On a return ticket, SYD-HKG:

Australia Passenger Movement Charge PMC (AU)
£34.10

Australia Passenger Services Charge Departure International (WY)
£35.60

Hong Kong Airport Construction Fee (G3)
£15.20

Hong Kong Air Passenger Departure Tax (HK)
£11.40

Hong Kong Airport Passenger Security Charge (I5)
£4.30


Comes to less than £100.

 

[otomous]

Rail is a public service, privately run. TOCs don’t have full freedom to set fares. They can’t withdraw unprofitable trains. Their profit margins are small. The fare structure to some extent is designed to encourage travel at particular times to avoid crowding and make better use of off peak resources. Comparing flying to New York on an advance ticket to a rail ticket booked at short notice is no comparison. How about we try it the other way round for a change? Been through all this before. Nothing to see here.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Rail is a public service, privately run. TOCs don’t have full freedom to set fares. They can’t withdraw unprofitable trains. Their profit margins are small. The fare structure to some extent is designed to encourage travel at particular times to avoid crowding and make better use of off peak resources. Comparing flying to New York on an advance ticket to a rail ticket booked at short notice is no comparison. How about we try it the other way round for a change? Been through all this before. Nothing to see here.

Looking at VTWC's latest financial accounts, they made a profit before tax of 5.8% of their revenue. That's a fairly healthy profit margin on its own for any transport undertaking - when you then consider that the amount of investment Virgin Rail Group and Stagecoach have put in, as well as the risk they have taken, that is a very healthy return on investment indeed.

 

[Howardh]

1 anytime first class return (£573) + 1 railcard-discounted anytime first class return (£378.20) adds up to £951.20, the amount quoted.

Thanks for that, have you ever thought of writing for a newspaper?!
That first figure is still a whopper, of course it can be whittled down substantially by booking even a few hours in advance, and splitting of course. But really a passenger shouldn't walk up and be faced with a fare that big for a 270-odd mile trip, even first class. Think there really should be a maximum fare for any trip so at leats passengers know a figure it can't go above. Maybe a nice round £400 1st anytime return whether it's Manchester - London or Penzance - Truro? Another thread, perhaps, meanwhilr thanks for answering my question.

 

[Merseysider]

...or Penzance - Truro?

For 27 miles?

 

[Howardh]

For 27 miles?

Make that Thurso - what's 850 miles between mates....
On the other hand, that maximum applies to all routes, even Oxford Road to Deansgate!!

 

[Haywain]

On a return ticket, SYD-HKG:

I think FenMan meant that he had flown from the UK to Sydney and will be flying back. That will up the value of the taxes quite a bit.

of course it can be whittled down substantially by booking even a few hours in advance, and splitting of course.

I saw the original tweet, and the date being looked at was Sunday 17th June for the outward journey, so she was trying to book in advance. I responded to the tweet suggesting trying TrainSplit.

 

[DelW]

Comparing flying to New York on an advance ticket to a rail ticket booked at short notice is no comparison. How about we try it the other way round for a change? Been through all this before. Nothing to see here.

Just out of interest, I tried that. First class flexible tickets on BA for one passenger, London - New York & return, outbound tomorrow and return on Monday, come to just under £13,000. Very roughly double the price per mile of the £573 rail ticket. Probably better on-board service though .

 

[ys123]

new.trainsplit.com brings up a range of options £300-360 (depending on where/how you do the splits) instead of £573.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think FenMan meant that he had flown from the UK to Sydney and will be flying back. That will up the value of the taxes quite a bit.

On a round trip LHR-SYD connecting via HKG:


Australia Passenger Services Charge Arrival International (WY)
£35.60

Hong Kong Airport Construction Fee (G3)
£30.40

Hong Kong Airport Passenger Security Charge (I5)
£8.60

United Kingdom Air Passenger Duty APD (GB)
£78.00

United Kingdom Passenger Service Charge Departures (UB)
£44.91

Australia Passenger Movement Charge PMC (AU)
£34.10





Total: £233.01.

Nowhere near 70% of the total amount due.

 

[FQTV]

On a round trip LHR-SYD connecting via HKG:


Australia Passenger Services Charge Arrival International (WY)
£35.60

Hong Kong Airport Construction Fee (G3)
£30.40

Hong Kong Airport Passenger Security Charge (I5)
£8.60

United Kingdom Air Passenger Duty APD (GB)
£78.00

United Kingdom Passenger Service Charge Departures (UB)
£44.91

Australia Passenger Movement Charge PMC (AU)
£34.10





Total: £233.01.

Nowhere near 70% of the total amount due.

The base fare would have been £251.39 on his ticket, so in fact about 64% of the total cost would have been made up of what a lot of people refer to as 'taxes', and sometimes erroneously as 'departure taxes'.

These are more accurately referred as 'taxes, fees and charges' and, in this case would include £224 of 'carrier imposed surcharges', coded YQ on most airlines that impose them, but YR on Cathay Pacific.

The 'carrier imposed surcharge' is, of course, just a fare supplement by any other name, and goes directly to the airline.

So, it's true to say that from the basic breakdown and limited explanation that airlines are apt to provide, it does indeed look as though only £251.39 of a £707.00 ticket is the fare, and that the rest (over 50%, actually 64% in this case) must be going elsewhere.

Only by knowing that YQ/YR is effectively still 'fare' would you know that the calculation in this case would actually be £475.39 to the airline, and £231.61 collected for remittance to third parties, or 67.5% fare and 32.5% collects.

I'd agree with @FenMan though that taking his ticket in isolation, even at the £475.39 level, that's very little revenue for the service received.