Maidnehead & Marlow

[Starmill]

Been meaning to come to this for some time. JackClare and I recently visited the line from the London direction.

We were on a weekday evening train, so it was obviously going to be rather busy, out of Paddington, but more so than we had expected for a 155x (particularly given the numbers who got on unexpectedly at Ealing Broadway!). The train departed from P14, accessed via a very odd walkway that I didn't even know existed before.

We looked for a HST going to either Maidenhead or Slough but there didn't seem to be very many! So Turbo to Banbury (another surprising destination) it was.

Anyway we had a 5 minute connection at Maidenhead and were 4 minutes late leaving Slough... We did wonder if the Marlow train might leave on time (presumably empty!) and the confused chaos of Maidenhead didn't help us catch it, but we did make it because the member of platform staff was waiting for the train from London to arrive and announcing where we should go to catch the Marlow service. Very nice, I thought.

The line was all very very strange (to someone from Northern-land, that is). Firstly, I thought Maidenhead had gates? But there was some rather obvious fare evasion using the toilet between there and Furze Platt - but that didn't matter because nobody came to check our tickets. I assumed the branch was DOO so I wondered why people were getting on at Furze Platt (going to Cookham) were looking around and saying about what they would say if asked for a ticket! I then realised something very odd was afoot because there weren't exactly TVMs or ticket offices at these stations, so who does the ticket selling?

Then I saw at Bourne End (I'm guessing this used to be a through station with a route to High Wycombe, and an old level crossing at the far end that is now just a wall and the end of the tracks) there were mirrors on one platform... but apparently not the other. Some people got on at Bourne End, again without tickets and were talking about the fact they thought it didn't matter for such a short journey (:roll and also doing a lot of complaining about how expensive the buses are to High Wycombe (I thought to myself, well it must be a lot cheaper than a train ticket...).

My guess after consulting RTT is that all of these trains do carry a guard, purely for the purpose of working the Marlow - Bourne End stretch and doing whatever needs to be done to change the points after the reversal. I can't really work out what the point of having two platforms at Bourne End is though. RTT isn't very helpful either as it seems to show some Marlow trains as through services and some as services only from Bourne End. Where I imagine there aren't any stand alone services from Bourne End to Marlow without a connection, and as such there aren't any services advertised as only being to Bourne End?

The guard did come through the train on the way back after Bourne End taking fares but not checking tickets. I find this whole set-up, in terms of both revenue (our BZ 6 - Marlow tickets weren't checked or needed to be put through barriers once) and operation very strange. I would vastly appreciate if somebody could clear up for me why this is worked like it is? Links to read or speaking from experience very welcome.

Our return journey illictied further bamboozlement about the size of Maidenhead station. I had expected something very akin to Slough, but it looks tiny! It looks like it only has two ticket gates, very narrow staircases with silly fencing / gate things at the top and the worlds narrowest subway. But again, we had a chance to look around the station only on our return, which was at the height of the evening peak. A 180 working an Oxford service arrived stuffed to the gills and then sat there for about 8 minutes. I find it very strange that apparently long distance stock is being used on these services rather than more turbos? It showed too, watching how long it took everyone to get off the narrow doors. We were very pleased with an HST back to London in that it took about half the time than the train on the way... which is odd given that there were no faster services for around 90 minutes prior to the one we chose, or we would have taken one. Even going in to London, the HST was very much full and standing - it also didn't much look like the platform was long enough for it!

The station really doesn't seem suitable for half of it's current passengers, let alone Crossrail... Did we manage to miss most of it or something?

 

[NSEFAN]

I sometimes use this line to get to High Wycombe (it's cheaper than going via London!) I've noticed that the train is held for booked connections, which is good customer service. Maidenhead does have ticket barriers, but perhaps they were not in operation on the day you traveled? (That would be surprising but not impossible). I believe there are TVMs at Cookham and Furze Platt, but they're not easily visible from the train.

The Marlow donkey (as it's called) is an odd ball. IIRC, the off peak service is a 2 car Turbo, which runs DOO but the guard performs revenue duties. However, during the peaks, longer trains run between London Paddington and Bourne End (up to 5 cars), with a connecting shuttle waiting at Bourne End to take remaining pax to Marlow, as only 2 cars can make the rest of the journey due to the tight layout at Bourne End. IIRC, these longer trains do not run DOO, as some platforms (Furze Platt comes to mind) are curved and the DOO mirrors wouldn't give full visibility to the driver. I think Marlow also does not have a DOO mirror. I suppose CCTV could be used instead but I imagine it's cheaper just to employ a guard.

As an aside, the local buses are actually quite expensive so the train may well have been cheaper if it still ran all the way to High Wycombe. I find it a shame that this section was closed, and has now been built on at the Wycombe end making reopening almost impossible. I'm not surprised that the Marlow spur survived, as Marlow is considerably wealthier than Wycombe.

 

[LexyBoy]

180s and HSTs occasionally call at Maidenhead in the peaks to provide sufficient capacity as well as a faster service; it is only a few as you noticed though. There are simply not enough Turbos for the commuter demand - not surprisingly given their capacity, can you imagine other London commuter routes using 2 or 3 car trains!?

As part of Crossrail, Maidenhead will have platform extensions, a new bay for the Marlow line, and a new ticket office. I would expect the whole to be made a bit larger too. As it is, I think you took the street exit as the ticket office exit has a larger gateline.

I sometimes use this line to get to High Wycombe (it's cheaper than going via London!)

From Soton? Wouldn't it be easier to get the 800/850 direct from Reading?

As an aside, the local buses are actually quite expensive so the train may well have been cheaper if it still ran all the way to High Wycombe. I find it a shame that this section was closed, and has now been built on at the Wycombe end making reopening almost impossible. I'm not surprised that the Marlow spur survived, as Marlow is considerably wealthier than Wycombe.

Indeed, it would be a very useful connexion if reopened. I don't know about the technicalities, but given the current investment in infrastructure like EWR and the electric spine it doesn't seem totally unbelievable. A potential Chilterns-Thames Valley-Heathrow link could be a good peace offering to the area following HS2.

And yes, the train would definitely be cheaper than the bus if the line were still open!

 

[TEW]

The Marlow donkey (as it's called) is an odd ball. IIRC, the off peak service is a 2 car Turbo, which runs DOO but the guard performs revenue duties. However, during the peaks, longer trains run between London Paddington and Bourne End (up to 5 cars), with a connecting shuttle waiting at Bourne End to take remaining pax to Marlow, as only 2 cars can make the rest of the journey due to the tight layout at Bourne End. IIRC, these longer trains do not run DOO, as some platforms (Furze Platt comes to mind) are curved and the DOO mirrors wouldn't give full visibility to the driver. I think Marlow also does not have a DOO mirror. I suppose CCTV could be used instead but I imagine it's cheaper just to employ a guard.

The peak services to Bourne End do run DOO. A guard is needed for the Bourne End-Marlow section as they have to work the ground frame at Bourne End which gives access to the Marlow branch.

 

[NSEFAN]

From Soton? Wouldn't it be easier to get the 800/850 direct from Reading?

You are correct except I meet a family member who works in Marlow, plus I enjoy using the branch itself.

The peak services to Bourne End do run DOO. A guard is needed for the Bourne End-Marlow section as they have to work the ground frame at Bourne End which gives access to the Marlow branch.

Interesting. How does the ground frame work with the signal located there? Presumably it was downgraded to a ground frame from full signalling when the line was rationalised? I seem to recall the platforms not having DOO mirrors at the 5 car stop boards on the branch. Does the driver simply look out the window in these situations?

 

[hassaanhc]

I seem to recall the platforms not having DOO mirrors at the 5 car stop boards on the branch. Does the driver simply look out the window in these situations?

If there aren't any guards or monitors/mirrors then I'm afraid what you said is correct, doesn't sound very good does it?
Same thing happens on P.3 at Southall (in that case there is evidence of a post that probably had monitors being cut down at some point)

 

[Hornet]

You are correct except I meet a family member who works in Marlow, plus I enjoy using the branch itself.

Interesting. How does the ground frame work with the signal located there? Presumably it was downgraded to a ground frame from full signalling when the line was rationalised? I seem to recall the platforms not having DOO mirrors at the 5 car stop boards on the branch. Does the driver simply look out the window in these situations?

Remember Bourne End when the Level Crossing was at the end of the Station. The downgrading of the signalling was done when the line to High Wycombe was closed in 1970. I was part of the team that installed the Open Crossing equipment at Brooksby and Marina Crossings (just west of Bourne End Station, on the Marlow branch), in the late 70's. In those days there would be a Token for Bourne End to Maidenhead, and a Staff for Bourne End to Marlow. The Token machine was at the end of Platform 5 in Maidenhead, with the release given from Slough Power Box. The Token would release the Ground Frame at Bourne End, allowing the points to be set for the Marlow Branch AND also reversing the points just after the River Bridge allowing access to be gained to the longer Southside Platform. Once the Facing Point Lock had been replaced, locking both sets of points the Marlow Staff can be removed and carried on the Marlow section of the journey. This set up allows a second Train between Maidenhead and Bourne End to operate, as the Bourne End to Marlow section can then be operated as a 'locked in' shuttle, as happens during the Morning and Evening peak. I assume these practices have change somewhat, but the fundamentals are still relevent. I assume that there will be some changes to the arrangements at Bourne End, when the Branch is Electrified. BTW the remnants of the curved platform where the 'Marlow Donkey' shuttle left from can be seen on the Northside Platform. Also until the late 70's there were manned Level Crossings at Cookham (Signalbox) and Furze Platt (Ground Frame). Annunciators were used to indicate the approach of oncoming Trains. Cookham was unusual in that when I was based at Slough S & T, two women operated the Crossing Box, (earlies and lates). Women signallers in whatever capacity were extremely rare in the 1970's.

 

[JN114]

Hornets description fundamentally still applies - the only change being the ground frame has been replaced with a mini-panel at the Marlow end of the Marlow platform at Bourne End. This is powered on by the the token, and the conductor changes the points and deals with the token and staff as required.

The "signal" on the Marlow platform (BE1) isn't a signal - it is a points indicator, and gives no indication as to the occupation state of the line ahead.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I also travelled on this branch for the first time ever this week. I travelled from Reading to Cookham on Tuesday, with the return journey on Wednesday. The guard checked all tickets on the (lunchtime) outward journey, starting immediately on departure from Maidenhead.

Cookham has a ticket office but it closes at 11:30; I looked around and couldn't find any ticket machines or permit to travel machines, although I did see a Penalty Fares poster! But there was also a (BR era, I think) notice displayed next to the ticket office window to the effect that tickets may be purchased on the train when the office is closed. The guard was also selling tickets on the way back but he stayed in the front carriage. However I had no trouble buying tickets from an RPI at the gateline in Maidenhead (which had about 5 turnstiles, I think) while changing trains there, directly after he'd penalty fared a passenger who appeared to have travelled from Paddington to Maidenhead using Oyster PAYG!

 

[hassaanhc]

I also travelled on this branch for the first time ever this week. I travelled from Reading to Cookham on Tuesday, with the return journey on Wednesday. The guard checked all tickets on the (lunchtime) outward journey, starting immediately on departure from Maidenhead.

Cookham has a ticket office but it closes at 11:30; I looked around and couldn't find any ticket machines or permit to travel machines, although I did see a Penalty Fares poster! But there was also a (BR era, I think) notice displayed next to the ticket office window to the effect that tickets may be purchased on the train when the office is closed. The guard was also selling tickets on the way back but he stayed in the front carriage. However I had no trouble buying tickets from an RPI at the gateline in Maidenhead (which had about 5 turnstiles, I think) while changing trains there, directly after he'd penalty fared a passenger who appeared to have travelled from Paddington to Maidenhead using Oyster PAYG!

Most of the stations on the Henley, Marlow and Greenford branches aren't in the PF scheme: Shiplake, Wargrave, Marlow, Cookham, Furze Platt, Drayton Green, Castle Bar Park, South Greenford. In fact the three Greenford branch stations mentioned above have no ticketing facilities, and I'd assume the others have no TVMs either. http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Train-times-and-tickets/Buy-Before-you-Board---Penalty-Fares

As for Oyster PAYG, recently someone tried using it to Southampton Central (!) And then had the cheek to moan on SWT's Twitter account that it wasn't their fault there were no maps about validity and no one told them oyster wasn't valid there (they quite rightly said it was the customer's responsibility to check, and all London stations have validity maps)

 

[Paul Kelly]

Very interesting; if I'm at Cookham again I'll see if I can have a closer look at the Penalty Fares poster and maybe take a photo. It was on the front (car park) side of the station building, next to the entrance to the waiting room.

 

[Hassocks5489]

Most of the stations on the Henley, Marlow and Greenford branches aren't in the PF scheme: Shiplake, Wargrave, Marlow, Cookham, Furze Platt, Drayton Green, Castle Bar Park, South Greenford. In fact the three Greenford branch stations mentioned above have no ticketing facilities, and I'd assume the others have no TVMs either. http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Train-times-and-tickets/Buy-Before-you-Board---Penalty-Fares

As for Oyster PAYG, recently someone tried using it to Southampton Central (!) And then had the cheek to moan on SWT's Twitter account that it wasn't their fault there were no maps about validity and no one told them oyster wasn't valid there (they quite rightly said it was the customer's responsibility to check, and all London stations have validity maps)

Yep, none of the stations you have listed have TVMs (although Cookham, Furze Platt and Bourne End - but bizarrely *not* Marlow - had Ascom Autelca "Quickfare" machines which were installed by Network SouthEast and which survived until the early 2000s). Also, none ever had PERTIS, even back in Network SouthEast days. Only Bourne End, Cookham, Furze Platt and Castle Bar Park have ticket offices, all with extremely limited hours.

 

[David Goddard]

Both the Marlow and Henley branch lines are real gems sleepy backwaters which come to life in the peaks when they become busy commuter lines serving some of the most affluent parts of the Thames Valley, hence the increased frequency and through London services at peak times. There continues to be concern over the future of these through trains post electrification, which remains uncertain at present, as are proposals for reinstatement of the line to High Wycombe (much of which is protected).

 

[Hornet]

Both the Marlow and Henley branch lines are real gems sleepy backwaters which come to life in the peaks when they become busy commuter lines serving some of the most affluent parts of the Thames Valley, hence the increased frequency and through London services at peak times. There continues to be concern over the future of these through trains post electrification, which remains uncertain at present, as are proposals for reinstatement of the line to High Wycombe (much of which is protected).

Wouldn't call them sleepy backwaters! Henley, Marlow, Bourne End and Cookham are well used in the off peak. The Marlow Branch has, and has had for some considerable time, a very active passenger association. Also both Branches get extremely busy during the summer regatta programmes. One interest point is that until the Marlow by-pass was built, Bus services between Marlow and Maidenhead were restricted by the fact that they had to go over the single lane road suspension bridge which had a strict weight limit on it. This entailed that Bus passengers had to get off on one side of the bridge and walk across to the other side and then get back on the Bus, which itself, went over the bridge empty, to compy with the weight limit. This arrangement made an episode of 'That's Life'. The road bridge limit for Buses probably saved the Marlow branch from closure in 1970.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marlow_Bridge
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Both the Marlow and Henley branch lines are real gems sleepy backwaters which come to life in the peaks when they become busy commuter lines serving some of the most affluent parts of the Thames Valley, hence the increased frequency and through London services at peak times. There continues to be concern over the future of these through trains post electrification, which remains uncertain at present, as are proposals for reinstatement of the line to High Wycombe (much of which is protected).

Wouldn't call them sleepy backwaters! Henley, Marlow, Bourne End and Cookham are well used in the off peak. The Marlow Branch has, and has had for some considerable time, a very active passenger association. Also both Branches get extremely busy during the summer regatta programmes. One interest point is that until the Marlow by-pass was built, Bus services between Marlow and Maidenhead were restricted by the fact that they had to go over the single lane road suspension bridge which had a strict weight limit on it. This entailed that Bus passengers had to get off on one side of the bridge and walk across to the other side and then get back on the Bus, which itself, went over the bridge empty, to compy with the weight limit. This arrangement made an episode of 'That's Life'. The road bridge limit for Buses probably saved the Marlow branch from closure in 1970.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The road bridge limit for Buses probably saved the Marlow branch from closure in 1970.

There's no longer a bus service between Marlow and Bourne End, or between Marlow and Maidenhead. Annoying to a resident, since an express bus running to Maidenhead station via the A404 Marlow bypass and the A308(M) would likely to be faster at most times of day than the train.

At off peak hours, the service is an hourly Maidenhead to Marlow shuttle and has been since the closure of Bourne End to Wycombe in 1970. At rush hours, it changes to a Bourne End to Marlow shuttle. The Bourne End to Maidenhead stretch is a mixture of a shuttle and through trains to and from Paddington.

The current plan is to electrify it, but with the section between Bourne End and Marlow restricted to 2 cars, there's some doubt as to where the stock is coming from.

Locally there are always proposals that the Bourne End to Wycombe line be rebuilt, sometimes as just a tram line. Enough has been built on to be a nuisance and there's still the problem of getting out of Bourne End to the north, with two level crossings apparently needing to be reinstated. These are on roads now much busier than in 1970.

 

[NSEFAN]

Locally there are always proposals that the Bourne End to Wycombe line be rebuilt, sometimes as just a tram line. Enough has been built on to be a nuisance and there's still the problem of getting out of Bourne End to the north, with two level crossings apparently needing to be reinstated. These are on roads now much busier than in 1970.

I like the idea of converting it to tram operation. It would allow for an increase in service frequency more cheaply and would also allow street-level running in High Wycombe.

 

[Hornet]

There's no longer a bus service between Marlow and Bourne End, or between Marlow and Maidenhead. Annoying to a resident, since an express bus running to Maidenhead station via the A404 Marlow bypass and the A308(M) would likely to be faster at most times of day than the train.

At off peak hours, the service is an hourly Maidenhead to Marlow shuttle and has been since the closure of Bourne End to Wycombe in 1970. At rush hours, it changes to a Bourne End to Marlow shuttle. The Bourne End to Maidenhead stretch is a mixture of a shuttle and through trains to and from Paddington.

The current plan is to electrify it, but with the section between Bourne End and Marlow restricted to 2 cars, there's some doubt as to where the stock is coming from.

Locally there are always proposals that the Bourne End to Wycombe line be rebuilt, sometimes as just a tram line. Enough has been built on to be a nuisance and there's still the problem of getting out of Bourne End to the north, with two level crossings apparently needing to be reinstated. These are on roads now much busier than in 1970.

The idea of a reinstatement of the Bourne End to Wycombe section of the line by heavy or light rail, along the original alignment is a non starter. There have been too many breaches of the alignment as at Bourne End, (Industrial Estate), Woburn Green (Housing) and between Loudwater and Wycombe (various Industrial and Retail Units. Also there is the problem of reinstating the four major Level Crossings at Bourne End Station, Cores End Road, Woburn Green and Loudwater Station. The last two were sited at the bottom of very steep road inclines. (The incline at Woburn has an escape lane on it and the Loudwater incline is very heavily trafficked). I would expect that Network Rail would not even countenance the building of a new Railway with four Level Crossings on it, and the construction of bridges at the four sites would be very challenging, (and expensive).
Regarding Level Crossings, the one at North Town, (besides Furze Platt Station), was notorious for the large amounts of near misses, (and occasional collisions) between road vehicles and trains. I attended more than one reported 'wrong side failure' there, when a car driver would allege that the Road Traffic signals had failed to operate. Not surprisingly we could never replicate the fault, although after a Bus nearly got taken out, it was decided that one of the traffic signals was poorly placed because of an adjacent house. In certain sunlight conditions the Road Signal in that location, when operating, may be difficult to see, especially as the Road across the Level Crossing is quite narrow. These factors were considered to put additional workload on Road Vehicle Drivers, which was believed in certain cases caused Drivers to miss the Road Signal. Many of the near misses (and at least one serious crash), were during the school run where the above workload for the Vehicle Drivers might have been exacerbated by the fact the Vehicle would have been carrying children travelling to/from school. (and we know how relaxing that journey can be!).
Finally Arriva offer a Bus Service between Maidenhead and Bourne End to Marlow. Unfortunately you have to travel via High Wycombe and change buses. Journey time nearly 2 hours, although you can wait in the nice fairly new Bus Station at Wycombe when changing. Much better than the monstrosity that is Slough's new Bus Station.

 

[3141]

I'm not surprised that the Marlow spur survived, as Marlow is considerably wealthier than Wycombe.

There's a much more straightforward reason for the line to Marlow to have survived while the section Bourne End to High Wycombe was closed - though it won't appeal to people who like to think that all decisions depend on who has the most money. High Wycombe has a direct line to London which is shorter and quicker than the original route from Paddington via Maidenhead and Bourne End. But Marlow would have been without a rail link if the line to Bourne End and Maidenhead had been closed. In the situation of around 1970Bourne End to High Wycombe was unnecessary.

 

[Hornet]

http://www.pete63.me.uk/pete63_010.htm

 

[NSEFAN]

There's a much more straightforward reason for the line to Marlow to have survived while the section Bourne End to High Wycombe was closed - though it won't appeal to people who like to think that all decisions depend on who has the most money. High Wycombe has a direct line to London which is shorter and quicker than the original route from Paddington via Maidenhead and Bourne End. But Marlow would have been without a rail link if the line to Bourne End and Maidenhead had been closed. In the situation of around 1970Bourne End to High Wycombe was unnecessary.

Throughout the line-closure years of BR, there were plenty of cases of well-used routes being closed and lesser used ones lingering on, simply due to politics (Heart of Wales, anyone?). The reason you give here however makes sense, given having a direct service to London was (and still is) a measure of how valuable a train service is.