Maidenhead Zones 1-6 one day travelcard validity?

[Monty]

A quick question for you routing guide buffs..

Is a one day travelcard from maidenhead routed any permitted valid via Windsor & Eton Central/Riverside and then on to Waterloo? Just came across a passenger today asking this question and I was unfortunately unable to give him an answer.

Thanks in advance.

 

[yorkie]

I am pretty sure it is.

 

[Monty]

I am pretty sure it is.

Thanks Yorkie, I thought so too but was not 100% sure.

 

[soil]

There are a number of (dis-)easements here.

700084 Customers travelling from Windsor & Eton Central to or via London Terminals may not travel via Windsor & Eton Riverside. This easement applies in both directions.

700085 Customers travelling from Datchet to or via London Waterloo may not travel via Windsor & Eton Riverside or Windsor & Eton Central. This easement applies in both directions

700226 Customers travelling from Windsor & Eton Central to or via Datchet may not travel via Windsor & Eton Riverside. This easement applies in both directions

None apparently apply.

Note that the Windsor stations are mapped on map WR (only).

This is a mapped route for Slough - Staines (and for any routes that would apply on linked routeing points, such as Maidenhead - Staines). But not Reading/Slough - London.

As it's not mapped, is it shorter than the shortest route?

Maidenhead - Paddington is 24.25 miles

Maidenhead - Windsor Central is 8.5 miles
Windsor Riverside - Waterloo 25.75 miles
Total = 34.25 miles
10 miles longer. Much too long.
Therefore via Windsor is not permitted from Maidenhead to London.

 

[Monty]

You learn something new everyday, I'm glad I told him I was unsure now.

 

[transportphoto]

Is there a difference if we take Vauxhall as the London Terminal instead of Waterloo?

 

[John @ home]

via Windsor is not permitted from Maidenhead to London.

I agree that travel via Windsor is not permitted using a Maidenhead - London Terminals ticket, but we are discussing a Travelcard, not a return ticket to London. London Zones 1-6 out-boundary Travelcards are valid [1] by any Permitted Route from the origin to any Zone 6 boundary station for which a Permitted Route exists, followed by unlimited travel within Zones 1-6. See the Routeing Guide and Boundary zone tickets thread, particularly this post.

Feltham is an appropriate Zone 6 boundary station with a Maidenhead - London Zones 1-6 route Any Permitted ticket. Maidenhead - Slough - Windsor & Eton Central - (walk) - Windsor & Eton Riverside - Feltham is a Permitted route Maidenhead - Feltham. Therefore that route may form part of a Permitted route from Maidenhead to any station within Zones 1-6.

[1] Subject to any Route restriction shown on the ticket. In this case, Maidenhead - London Zones 1-6 is routed Any Permitted, so there is no such restriction.

 

[AshValePsngr]

Maidenhead - Slough - Windsor & Eton Central - (walk) - Windsor & Eton Riverside - Feltham is a Permitted route Maidenhead - Feltham.

I am certainly not disputing the above, but I can't see how this is a valid route, based on my understanding of the routing guide. Please can you explain how you worked this out, which map it's on etc? From what I can see Maidenhead to Feltham (Taking either Reading, or Slough as the routing point for Maidenhead) has to go on either maps LONDON, RG+WX, or WX[From Reading only]. The route you described doesn't appear valid on any of these. I'm guessing that it may be due to the walk, and maybe shortest route, but it would be great if you could explain this.
Thanks

 

[soil]

I am certainly not disputing the above, but I can't see how this is a valid route, based on my understanding of the routing guide. Please can you explain how you worked this out, which map it's on etc? From what I can see Maidenhead to Feltham (Taking either Reading, or Slough as the routing point for Maidenhead) has to go on either maps LONDON, RG+WX, or WX[From Reading only]. The route you described doesn't appear valid on any of these. I'm guessing that it may be due to the walk, and maybe shortest route, but it would be great if you could explain this.
Thanks

Maidenhead is associated with Reading Group and Slough
Feltham is a routeing point.

Single fares from Maidenhead to Feltham, Any Permitted are:
£20.50 SDS
£15.90 CDS

Single fares from Reading to Feltham are:
£12 SDS

Fares from Slough to Feltham, Any Permitted, are:
£17.20 SDS
£13.60 CDS

Permitted mapped routes are:
Maidenhead - Reading - Bracknell - Feltham (mapped from Reading and Slough)

The shortest route according to the National Rail Timetable is:
(as above) 40.5 miles

and according to the routeing engine used by online booking engines 37.28 miles, via Acton Mainline - Kensington Olympia, even though this service no longer runs.

According to the electronic timetabling data, there is a walking link between Windsor & Eton Riverside and Windsor & Eton Central.

Maidenhead - Windsor & Eton Central is 8.5 miles.
Windsor & Eton Riverside - Feltham is 11 miles.

The total distance is 19.5 miles.

Since this is shorter than the shortest route by rail, it's permitted, albeit based on unpublished data determining what stations are and aren't linked.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.... London Zones 1-6 out-boundary Travelcards are valid [1] by any Permitted Route from the origin to any Zone 6 boundary station for which a Permitted Route exists, followed by unlimited travel within Zones 1-6.....

I must admit I thought this was true, but when I had to look something up in The Manual the other day I saw that it is not. It is valid to a zone 6 station on line of route then within the Travelcard area. The example it gives is Bedford to Elstree with no mention of Bedford to Hatch End (via Bletchley).

 

[yorkie]

HHF - But arguably Windsor is on the line of route! What does it say about the validity of Boundary Zone 6 tickets? Are you saying they differ in validity?

 

[LexyBoy]

I must admit I thought this was true, but when I had to look something up in The Manual the other day I saw that it is not. It is valid to a zone 6 station on line of route

What does "on line of route" mean? Surely this has to be a route to somewhere in particular.

NRE uses the method described by John@Home and I'd argue that this is a more definitive source than The Manual.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

HHF - But arguably Windsor is on the line of route! What does it say about the validity of Boundary Zone 6 tickets? Are you saying they differ in validity?

Windsor? Maybe, but Windsor isn't the zone 6 station is it? Or have ATOC changed the Travelcard map without telling anyone?

I am not saying anything about the validity of boundary extensions and as far as I can see The Manual does not state either way.

What does "on line of route" mean? Surely this has to be a route to somewhere in particular.

NRE uses the method described by John@Home and I'd argue that this is a more definitive source than The Manual.

Well, as I say I have always been of the mind that a permitted route to a zone 6 station is fine, but I don't design or make the rules.

NRES says 'Outboundary Travelcards' are a 'return to London' and then travel within the zones. In either case I believe Feltham does not qualify as the boundary or destination.

 

[Be3G]

NRES says 'Outboundary Travelcards' are a 'return to London' and then travel within the zones. In either case I believe Feltham does not qualify as the boundary or destination.

Going by that wording, I suppose the most sensible interpretation would be that the permitted ‘lines of route’ (taking the manual's nomenclature) of an outboundary travelcard outside London are those between the origin and the London routeing point group. Or perhaps it's permitted routes between the origin and the stations specified here, which aren't always quite the same?

 

[AshValePsngr]

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but is there any difference between for example the ticket

ADT Anytime Day Travelcard Maidenhead - London Zones 1-6

And

SDR Anytime Day Return Maidenhead - Boundary Zone 6 with a Zone 1-6 Anytime day travelcard?

Also could you buy both the boundary zone 6 ticket, and the day travelcard separately at Maidenhead?

The price is slightly different (£26.00 against £25.90 (£9.50 + £16.40)) but is the validity any different?

 

[LexyBoy]

NRES says 'Outboundary Travelcards' are a 'return to London' and then travel within the zones. In either case I believe Feltham does not qualify as the boundary or destination.

That's a good point; the journey planner however will offer an outboundary Travelcard with the same permitted routes as a point-to-point ticket to any station in the Zones. If it offers Maidenhead-Feltham via Windsor (IIRC it doesn't) then it will offer a Travelcard with the same route.

BTW you've not answered what points you consider the "line of route" to link, though I take it that it would be the origin and London Group?

 

[soil]

That's a good point; the journey planner however will offer an outboundary Travelcard with the same permitted routes as a point-to-point ticket to any station in the Zones. If it offers Maidenhead-Feltham via Windsor (IIRC it doesn't) then it will offer a Travelcard with the same route.

In fact there is a Maidenhead - Feltham Route Windsor ticket, and NRE does offer it, without prompting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, as I say I have always been of the mind that a permitted route to a zone 6 station is fine, but I don't design or make the rules.

NRES says 'Outboundary Travelcards' are a 'return to London' and then travel within the zones. In either case I believe Feltham does not qualify as the boundary or destination.

"When a zonal fare applies to a journey, then the routeing guide only applies to that part of the journey which is not within the zones included in the fare. That part of the journey which is not subject to ENRG checking should be disregarded, and only that part of the journey which requires to be validated is subject to the above rules. For example, on a journey from Walsall to Stratford the zonal fare “WALSALL to ZONE U345* LONDN” may apply. The fare is zonal because the fare destination is a zonal destination.

A fare will be deemed to be a zonal fare if specific zonal data exists for that fare. The zonal data will indicate to which zonal system the fare location or route relates, and which zones within that zonal system are included in the fare location/route. Any stations which exist within a zone must have zonal data so that the zones to which the stations belong can be recognised. If the zonal data does not exist, then the fare should be validated as if it is a non-zonal fare."

"For journeys which commence outside the zonal system, where the fare destination is zonal, the Rail part of the journey should be validated, up to the first relevant station inside the zonal system. The first station pass/stop event which is in one of the zones covered by the zonal fare is the relevant station. The part of the journey from the journey origin to this station should be validated using NRG rules. All other pass/stop events in the journey must be included in the zones covered by the zonal fare destination."

So I think Maidenhead - Zone U1* London would be valid by any permitted route to a zone 1 station - the fare is I think non-zonal until you reach zone 1, even though you are passing through zones. A Zone U1256* ticket, or Z1-6 a travelcard, would be valid by permitted routes to the first pass/stop event in Zone 6.

I can't see anything in the database that says a 'boundary zone' is a zonal fare. But then boundary zone tickets are not validated anyway, so perhaps it doesn't matter.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Without Railcard discounts, Maidenhead to Waterloo with an off peak Travelcard is £ 14.90. Maidenhead to Windsor is £ 4.50 off peak return, whilst Windsor to Waterloo is £ 10.40 without Travelcard.

So for a journey purely to Waterloo and back, travelling via Windsor in both directions, the fare is the same as for the direct route via Paddington and Bakerloo.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....BTW you've not answered what points you consider the "line of route" to link, though I take it that it would be the origin and London Group?

Tbf, it's not for me to say really, but if I had to guess, based on the example given by The Manual, it means the more direct routes, the example being Bedford to Elstree (Midland Main Line), unless a routed ticket exists of course.

....In fact there is a Maidenhead - Feltham Route Windsor ticket, and NRE does offer it, without prompting....

A routed ticket doesn't automatically make another ticket valid by that route though.

...."When a zonal fare applies to a journey, then the routeing guide only applies to that part of the journey which is not within the zones included in the fare. That part of the journey which is not subject to ENRG checking should be disregarded, and only that part of the journey which requires to be validated is subject to the above rules. For example, on a journey from Walsall to Stratford the zonal fare “WALSALL to ZONE U345* LONDN” may apply. The fare is zonal because the fare destination is a zonal destination.

A fare will be deemed to be a zonal fare if specific zonal data exists for that fare. The zonal data will indicate to which zonal system the fare location or route relates, and which zones within that zonal system are included in the fare location/route. Any stations which exist within a zone must have zonal data so that the zones to which the stations belong can be recognised. If the zonal data does not exist, then the fare should be validated as if it is a non-zonal fare."

"For journeys which commence outside the zonal system, where the fare destination is zonal, the Rail part of the journey should be validated, up to the first relevant station inside the zonal system. The first station pass/stop event which is in one of the zones covered by the zonal fare is the relevant station. The part of the journey from the journey origin to this station should be validated using NRG rules. All other pass/stop events in the journey must be included in the zones covered by the zonal fare destination."

So I think Maidenhead - Zone U1* London would be valid by any permitted route to a zone 1 station - the fare is I think non-zonal until you reach zone 1, even though you are passing through zones. A Zone U1256* ticket, or Z1-6 a travelcard, would be valid by permitted routes to the first pass/stop event in Zone 6.

I can't see anything in the database that says a 'boundary zone' is a zonal fare. But then boundary zone tickets are not validated anyway, so perhaps it doesn't matter.

A U zone ticket is a ticket to a rail destination and then the tube/DLR from there to an Underground/DLR station within the zones on the ticket, so they are not strictly zonal (not by the NRCoC definition at least).

A Zone U1 ticket would be valid to London Terminals (or another zone 1 station along the route) and then by tube/DLR to an Underground/DLR station in Zone 1.

If we are to disregard travel beyond the start of the zonal area then NRES is in error saying that we do include it ("a return to London....."), therefore we cannot trust it to provide accurate information. This leaves us with The Manual which agrees that we should only use it to the first station in the zonal area and it states "on line of route". So really we only have to define line of route.

Where does the quote come from btw?

 

[soil]

A routed ticket doesn't automatically make another ticket valid by that route though.

It makes the Maidenhead - Feltham Any Permitted ticket valid by that route (since it is more expensive).

That wasn't the point anyway. Maidenhead - Feltham via Windsor is a permitted route because it's shorter than the shortest route by rail. It was suggested that NRE did not offer this route - it does.

Where does the quote come from btw?

They are the ATOC rules for routeing using the eNRG.

 

[CheapAndNerdy]

Has a consensus been arrived at yet?

transportphoto mentioned travel to Vauxhall, although I don't think anyone followed up on it. Vauxhall is a "London terminal" and NRE happily provides a single ticketed route via Windsor and Feltham. I can't find any other terminal that permits this.

If the ticket in question is interpreted as a Maidenhead to London Terminals with added zones, then travel via Windsor is valid (if you're questioned outside the zones simply say you're going to Vauxhall ). Once you reach Feltham then you've gone zonal.

 

[David Goddard]

I just went to the South West Trains website, and entered a journey from Maidenhead to East Croydon, stating Datchet as a via point.

The website returned a selection of tickets, including travelcards which are cheaper than returns for the same trip.

Using this I would be confident that the ticket is valid via Windsor and Staines, and would have no issue telling anyone that this was the case. A printed copy of the website generated itinerary would hush any RPI who might doubt the route.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I just went to the South West Trains website, and entered a journey from Maidenhead to East Croydon, stating Datchet as a via point.

You can use Clapham Junction via Datchet as well and that also gives the Travelcard option.

 

[island]

This is important, as there are a number of routes where Travelcards are cheaper than day returns (or even singles!).

 

[AshValePsngr]

Sorry, for some reason I was being moderated. I asked this question on Friday, but it didn't appear in the thread until today and it's not even on this page now. I'm sure no-one has noticed it, so I'm quoting it in the hope of getting an answer.

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, but is there any difference between for example the ticket

ADT Anytime Day Travelcard Maidenhead - London Zones 1-6

And

SDR Anytime Day Return Maidenhead - Boundary Zone 6 with a Zone 1-6 Anytime day travelcard?

Also could you buy both the boundary zone 6 ticket, and the day travelcard separately at Maidenhead?

The price is slightly different (£26.00 against £25.90 (£9.50 + £16.40)) but is the validity any different?

 

[island]

As far as I can tell, the validity is the same, or slightly better in that the combined Travelcard would be retained in the ticket gate at Maidenhead, whereas if you used the separate tickets you would be able to reuse the Travelcard if you went back into London later on that day. And in fact I think there may be a red bus service out to Slough as well.

 

[bb21]

As far as I can tell, the validity is the same, or slightly better in that the combined Travelcard would be retained in the ticket gate at Maidenhead, whereas if you used the separate tickets you would be able to reuse the Travelcard if you went back into London later on that day. And in fact I think there may be a red bus service out to Slough as well.

You can, though, request that you keep hold of the Travelcard, as it will have further validity within the zones if you later decide to pay separately to get back into the zones for whatever reason.

 

[Deerfold]

As far as I can tell, the validity is the same, or slightly better in that the combined Travelcard would be retained in the ticket gate at Maidenhead, whereas if you used the separate tickets you would be able to reuse the Travelcard if you went back into London later on that day. And in fact I think there may be a red bus service out to Slough as well.

The 81 links Slough and Hounslow every 12 minutes during the day.