Maglev dream collapses

[Metroland]

Germany's plan to launch a magnetic levitation - or maglev - rail service has collapsed amid soaring costs.

It was to be built in Munich from the airport to the city centre, making it Europe's first commercial maglev train.

The plans came unstuck after the estimated cost of the track spiralled to 3.2bn euros ($5bn; £2.5bn), up from 1.85bn euros.

Maglev trains use electric-powered magnets that enable them to float above their tracks, allowing for high speeds.

"The Munich magnetic levitation rail project has collapsed," said Transport Minister Wolfgang Tiefensee.

The developers of the train, Siemens and ThyssenKrupp, had been working on the project which had been spearheaded by construction firm Hochtief.

Rail operator Deutsche Bahn, Munich airport and the European Union were also involved.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7316719.stm

 

[support-uk-rail]

Shanghai's Maglev was a great success.

 

[bluemeansgo]

Shanghai's Maglev was a great success.

Operationally, it was... however it will NEVER recoup the cost of building it over its lifespan.

Without Government funding, these initiatives can't succeed.

 

[me123]

The imperative factor is money here. It is essential that the service at least breaks even as there is no point in throwing money into a system that is not going to be used. The price is astounding and I cannot imagine that the service would be profitable enough to justify the high cost.

 

[bluemeansgo]

The imperative factor is money here. It is essential that the service at least breaks even as there is no point in throwing money into a system that is not going to be used. The price is astounding and I cannot imagine that the service would be profitable enough to justify the high cost.

I believe it would have no problem recouping its operating costs. Shanghai charges $6 for a ride and recoups its operational costs. Apparently a LOT cheaper than HSR.

 

[yorkie]

The imperative factor is money here. It is essential that the service at least breaks even as there is no point in throwing money into a system that is not going to be used. The price is astounding and I cannot imagine that the service would be profitable enough to justify the high cost.

If that applied to road building, most of the roads we have would never have been built. Which, in many places, would have been a good thing! I just don't get this obsession in the UK that new railways should make a profit but roads don't.

That said, I don't think Maglev offers good value for money. High speed rail is proven and does - just look at how cities like Lille have been transformed as a result, for example.

 

[tramboy]

I think the main factor here is the space required for it getting it out of Munich and to the airport. Plus, TransRapid have been under some pressure to actually sell the system in their own country, and the Munich Airport application seemed to be the best of a bad job.

Maglev is a lot of money...and at present, it's only 45 minutes from the Airport to the City centre via S8 (or S1)...which it has to be said, puts any local train service in the UK to shame.

And no comment to the roads making profit idea above. If you count the amount of taxes from them as profit, then they make it!

Regards

Dave

 

[Max]

Maglev is a lot of money...and at present, it's only 45 minutes from the Airport to the City centre via S8 (or S1)...which it has to be said, puts any local train service in the UK to shame.

I think Manchester Airport gets a pretty good deal - pretty fast and frequent services from the centre.

 

[Metroland]

I think Maglev is an expensive waste of money. 220mph for conventional rail, which is happening now, is quite sufficient. That makes London just over 30 mins away from Birmingham. Maglev is technology for the sake of it, which I'm getting more suspicious of as the day goes by. I question the real value a lot of this sort of thing adds. It's like the mobile phones we are all being sold, 80% of the features you just don't need or use. As long as technology is a fashion item, we'll never go green.

 

[me123]

One thing I've always thought about MagLev is that it has a high degree of novelty value. It's fantastic technology, but it's better suited to shuttles to disneyland and other such things. Similar to a monorail system. The proposals to instal one betwixt Glasgow and Edinburgh are just insane: OK, a 15 minute journey time would be good but the current speeds are alright and can easily be improved upon, and the system is, just like this one, not going to be profitable in it's lifetime.

 

[bluemeansgo]

One thing I've always thought about MagLev is that it has a high degree of novelty value. It's fantastic technology, but it's better suited to shuttles to disneyland and other such things. Similar to a monorail system. The proposals to instal one betwixt Glasgow and Edinburgh are just insane: OK, a 15 minute journey time would be good but the current speeds are alright and can easily be improved upon, and the system is, just like this one, not going to be profitable in it's lifetime.

I'd be inclined to agree. Between Glasgow and Edinburgh High speed Mag-lev doesn't make ANY sense.

15 minute travel times perhaps, but the time it takes getting to and from the mag-lev is what is going to take most of the time.

It would have fewer stops, so the population catchment area is a LOT smaller too.

Saying that, Linking London and Edinburgh might be an idea worth pursuing.

It's about the same distance as Tokyo - Osaka, and you could hit a few larger cities on the way.

 

[vc-10]

London-Edinburgh with a high speed (think 220mph, not 150mph) would be cheaper, and in my opinion better value... and doesn't need new stations. I think that the 4 'biggest' 125mph routes in the country should be significantly upgraded to at least 300km/h (same as the Eurostar) electrics. ECML, WCML, GWML, and MML (I think those are the 4 biggest!)
Basically anywhere where they use 91s+Mk4s, Pendos or HSTs at 125mph for significant parts of the journey, and do so frequently! Give the network a good upgrade, and pull passengers from the flying deathtraps, sorry, Ryanair and onto the rails!

 

[bluemeansgo]

Augh... I hate impoerial measurements.

UK has all the fundamentals that would make it a perfect for HSR. A long thin country of almost 60million people mostly clustered in cities with average distance between cities less than a 1 hour journey away (@ 300km/h)
A cool image of population density in England:
http://www.barnabu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/population-density.jpg

 

[Beaker]

If that applied to road building, most of the roads we have would never have been built. Which, in many places, would have been a good thing! I just don't get this obsession in the UK that new railways should make a profit but roads don't.

That said, I don't think Maglev offers good value for money. High speed rail is proven and does - just look at how cities like Lille have been transformed as a result, for example.

Maglev is a part of progressing the railway system. In years to come people will think traditional lines were slow. You can't just stop progressing.

 

[bluemeansgo]

Maglev is a part of progressing the railway system. In years to come people will think traditional lines were slow. You can't just stop progressing.

You're correct. HSR is probably near it's top speed, because of wear on the parts and limitations on noise pollution.

Saying that though, Mag-lev makes sense only in terms of distance. It's a very efficient form of transportation when it is running. Mag-lev is well suited to countries like China, and the US, where Large population centres are separated by a few hundred kilometres. It also makes sense in long trunk runs, like London - Paris, London Edinburgh/Glasgow, Berlin - Frankfurt, etc.

 

[Broken Viking]

Hail All!
As a long standing observer and supporter of the Transrapid system, thought I'd drop in a few brief comments about a few bits and pieces...

Germany's plan to launch a magnetic levitation - or maglev - rail service has collapsed amid soaring costs.
It was to be built in Munich from the airport to the city centre, making it Europe's first commercial maglev train.
The plans came unstuck after the estimated cost of the track spiralled to 3.2bn euros ($5bn; £2.5bn), up from 1.85bn euros...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cry::cry::cry:
And just when things were starting to look up after the (Easily avoidable) Emsland incident as well... ad:

Maglev is a lot of money...and at present, it's only 45 minutes from the Airport to the City centre via S8 (or S1)...which it has to be said, puts any local train service in the UK to shame.

Two words: Stansted Express! :razz:

...Although I've been giving thought to a better version of the Stansted Express that'd use the Transrapid system running in a vacuum (See the Discovery Extreme Engineering episode on the Transatlantic Tunnel) insted of the bog standard wheel/rail combo. Assuming even a very low operational speed for such a system (Say about 750mph), Liverpool Street to Stansted could be cut down to a five minute or quicker journey, I reckon! :grin:

I think Maglev is an expensive waste of money. 220mph for conventional rail, which is happening now, is quite sufficient...

In my own opinion, the only trains that should ever go as slow as 220mph are modified Pacers on stopping services.
Although I understand (And support) the idea of running a decent number of services on slower Intercity workings (Those under 300mph) for the benefit of passengers who may not like more reasonable speeds, I'd sooner choose the TR-07 doing 1,250mph any day!
(And besides...Given the short distance between the two, London to Aberdeen shouldn't ever take more than ten minutes anyway IMO! )

And in terms of cost: Read up on the old Maglev system that used to operate between Birmingham Intl. Airport and the NEC. The thing was so devoid of wear and tear that it ran for 30 years on all of it's original components, with nothing more than inspections and the occasional adjustment being needed in all that time - As far as I am aware. hock::grin:
Now try convincing me that traditional trains could claim a maintenance record like that! :razz:

You're correct. HSR is probably near it's top speed, because of wear on the parts and limitations on noise pollution.

Again, I agree with ye that HSR is probabally getting near it's maximum potential, although I daresay that the French and the Japanese will probabally manage to push Intercity HSR up to about 350-400mph before HSR is considered to have "peaked".

That, and ye do NOT want to see what I would be managing if ever I was to take the controls of an APT whilst listening to Finntroll... hock:

To summerise: I support decent Maglev designs all the way, and dream of the day when we'll be able to "fly" from London to Moscow in 20 minutes, on a Transrapid 07 in perfect comfort and at half decent speeds.
However, I'm happy with most designs of Maglev system...So long as we don't end up with that wasteful and completely impractical pile of cack (IMHO) that Japanese Railways are developing at the moment! :grin::razz:

Farewell...
>> Death <<

 

[bluemeansgo]

I agree with ye that HSR is probabally getting near it's maximum potential, although I daresay that the French and the Japanese will probabally manage to push Intercity HSR up to about 350-400mph before HSR is considered to have "peaked".

Apparently, The Fastech 360 was designed to travel at a max "operational" speed of 405km/h if I'm not mistaken. However, probably only for parts of a journey, or when making up for time... it's nominal operational speed is 360km/h but will be limited to 320km/h due to braking distance and overhead wire wear.

That, and ye do NOT want to see what I would be managing if ever I was to take the controls of an APT whilst listening to Finntroll... hock:

To summerise: I support decent Maglev designs all the way, and dream of the day when we'll be able to "fly" from London to Moscow in 20 minutes, on a Transrapid 07 in perfect comfort and at half decent speeds.
However, I'm happy with most designs of Maglev system...So long as we don't end up with that wasteful and completely impractical pile of cack (IMHO) that Japanese Railways are developing at the moment! :grin::razz:

The big problem with Transrapid's system is that in the event of an Earthquake, the risks go up exponentially. That's the main reason the Japanese opted to use EDS (which hovers at 10cm instead of Transrapid's 1cm)

The Japanese are VERY safety conscious and noise conscious. That's why their designs are often outlandish, they reduce noise (especially tunnel noise... as Japanese tunnel specs are smaller than European ones). In Japan's case, EDS makes more sense... after all, one earthquake on a newly constructed mag-lev that takes lives would be a tragedy.

EDS perhaps is impractical for some locations, but will still likely be the envy of the world when it is actually built. They tend to have a knack for doing things the hard way and actually paying off in the long run. It also has a much faster theoretical speed, due to the larger gap it can have between rail and train.

Remember, Japan's Shinkansen lines run at a profit and actually recouped their initial investment in less than a year.

They have overcapacity problems (Standing room only) on current runs... in which trains run every 6 minutes.

Just because it may not be the right choice for Britain, doesn't mean it's an impractical piece of cack.

The Japanese tend to build for tomorrow remember, and this is no exception. Much of the technology that will decrease the costs of the Mag-lev are still in development or not invented yet (still theories)... so the Japanese will take the hard way and just commit to the project and let the technologies develop around it.

It is how a lot of Japanese innovation occurs and it works for that nation. This level of commitment is more than we can say for Britain, isn't it?