Made up ideas for stock cascades

[FQ]

Mods please move if this is in the wrong section.

I have made this thread so people can say what they want to happen for stock cascades. Here is what I want to happen (when I say want I don't mean that completely. My perfect world for train would be for it all to be loco hauled).

When IEPs go onto the ECML
I think a few of the MK4s and DVTs should go over to the chiltern main line so there are more silver sets on the London-Birmingham circuit which would then allow a few 168s to go onto the longer distance services that 165s/172s are on (such as Marylebone-Stratford and Marylebone-Banbury/Oxford). Then a few of the 165s could go over to Bristol to work with the FGW ones over there.
A few MK4s could go over to Anglia to replace the MK3s on the London-Norwich network. The MK3s could then go to a different place.
And the rest of the MK4s stay on the ECML.
I can't actually think of anything for the MK3s.

When IEPs go onto the GWML
Most of the HSTs can go to Scotland and work between the 7 cities as planned. Then the 158s/156s used on those routes can go over to the Fife Circle stuff and other short routes that the 170s used to work on. Loads of 170s can go down south to Southern as planned and a few of them can go to what is currently Northern Rail.
A load more can go to Network Rail in order to replace the 37s and 31s that are currently on them. They can then go over to West Coast Rail, DRS or other companies that like or need heritage locos.

When 700/701s go onto Thameslink
The 319s left on Thameslink can go to what is now Southern in order to replace the 313s working down there which can then go to Rotherham and end there long life. Any of the other 319s which are left after moving some to the south can go to what is now Northern.
The 377/5s and 387s can go over to Great Northern to replace the 313s, 317s and 321s so GN is just ran by 365s, 377s and 387s.
The 313s can go to Booths to join the others from the south and a few new electric units to replace the 313s on the Moorgate trains.
The 317s could go over to the GWML between Paddington and Reading/Oxford along with a few of the AGA ones. First Great Western could keep a few 165s/166s after they move to Bristol to work on the un-electrified branches.
The 321s could go to what is now London Midland to replace the ones that go to Scotland.

Unit cascade from London-Bristol and Electrification of the valleys
Most of the FGW 165s/166s can go over to Bristol except a few which can stay to work on the un-electrified branches. Then the 150s can go over to Northern Rail to get rid of a few of the 142s which can go to Booths. Then, when the valleys are electrified, the 150s that come off that route can go over to Northern to completely get rid of the Pacers up there. And when the valleys are electrified the 142/3s down there can go for scrap completely getting rid of the Pacers. A few of the 150s would have to stay in Wales to work on the un-electrified branches until the Pennines are electrified. When they are electrified the 185s can leave and move down to Wales to work with the 175s on the longer distance services. Then the 158s can work on the un-electrified routes that the 150 had worked on until then. Then the 150s that remained could go to Northern.


Please say if I have left any routes out and say what you think.

 

[krus_aragon]

Mods please move if this is in the wrong section.

I have made this thread so people can say what they want to happen for stock cascades. Here is what I want to happen (when I say want I don't mean that completely. My perfect world for train would be for it all to be loco hauled).

Unit cascade from London-Bristol and Electrification of the valleys
Most of the FGW 165s/166s can go over to Bristol except a few which can stay to work on the un-electrified branches. Then the 150s can go over to Northern Rail to get rid of a few of the 142s which can go to Booths. Then, when the valleys are electrified, the 150s that come off that route can go over to Northern to completely get rid of the Pacers up there. And when the valleys are electrified the 142/3s down there can go for scrap completely getting rid of the Pacers. A few of the 150s would have to stay in Wales to work on the un-electrified branches until the Pennines are electrified. When they are electrified the 185s can leave and move down to Wales to work with the 175s on the longer distance services. Then the 158s can work on the un-electrified routes that the 150 had worked on until then. Then the 150s that remained could go to Northern.

Have you considered the fact that only 158s are currently equipped with ERTMS for work on the Cambrian? Also, operating 158s, 175s and 185s would give the Wales & Borders franchise three types of incompatible long distance rolling stock (four if you count loco hauled).

 

[Techniquest]

Some interesting ideas in there, I must say I like the idea of 185s coming to ATW!

 

[northwichcat]

Some interesting ideas in there, I must say I like the idea of 185s coming to ATW!

One slight issue with that is not all the 185s will be released by electrification.

You could perhaps suggest TPE could take on the 175s instead of 185s. Although that would mean longer ECS movements for TPE and more ECS movements for ATW given the designated Siemens maintenance facilities near Manchester for the 185s and the designated Alstom facilities near Chester.
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Then the 158s can work on the un-electrified routes that the 150 had worked on until then. Then the 150s that remained could go to Northern.

ATW asked Network Rail for permission to use 158s on Borderlands and Conwy Valley. Network Rail refused saying they would increase dwell times too much, so those two lines would need to keep 150s.

 

[physics34]

i think the remaining 319s should replace 455/8s on southern, or 313s as mentioned.

 

[Bevan Price]

To give our Southern friends the opportunity to experience / enjoy Pacers, I think that Waterloo - Exeter services should be converted to Class 142/143 operation.

The displaced Class 159 & 158 units should be split between ATW, East Midland & Northern, to provide more seating on busy services, and also to replace inadequate one coach 153s on lines such as Cumbrian Coast, Crewe - Deby, etc.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If the 185s could all be released then they could goto SWTs to replace the 158s/9s, would mean just extensions to the relevant depot(s) where the 444s and 450s are maintained and the engines tweaked so they don't use up so much fuel (doubtful the full power of the engines would be needed)

 

[D365]

i think the remaining 319s should replace 455/8s on southern, or 313s as mentioned.

Class 319 is of the same Mk3-derived heritage as Class 455 and less then ten years younger, whilst the 455s are specifically geared for inner suburban service. The only benefit I see would be to save on retractioning (the 455s use older slam-door motors) or if a full DV fleet becomes necessary.

To give our Southern friends the opportunity to experience / enjoy Pacers, I think that Waterloo - Exeter services should be converted to Class 142/143 operation.

But we already have Pacers in the Great Western sector...

 

[superalbs]

If the 185s could all be released then they could goto SWTs to replace the 158s/9s, would mean just extensions to the relevant depot(s) where the 444s and 450s are maintained and the engines tweaked so they don't use up so much fuel (doubtful the full power of the engines would be needed)

That actually seems like a somewhat realistic idea, the 185s would look nice in South West Train's livery, but what is the seating like? I would imagine it would not be suitable for the whole 3.5 hour journey between Exeter and London without a refurb.

To give our Southern friends the opportunity to experience / enjoy Pacers, I think that Waterloo - Exeter services should be converted to Class 142/143 operation.

Haha, no thank you! We have more than enough Pacers here in Exeter.

 

[physics34]

To give our Southern friends the opportunity to experience / enjoy Pacers, I think that Waterloo - Exeter services should be converted to Class 142/143 operation.

loooool would love to see that..just for one day....! The looks on peoples faces would be classic.

 

[D365]

loooool would love to see that..just for one day....! The looks on peoples faces would be classic.

Especially if you're in Exeter.

 

[FQ]

One slight issue with that is not all the 185s will be released by electrification.

ATW asked Network Rail for permission to use 158s on Borderlands and Conwy Valley. Network Rail refused saying they would increase dwell times too much, so those two lines would need to keep 150s.

TPE could keep about 20 of the 185s and the rest could go to Northern. Then the Northern 158s could go to ATW.

Keep a few 150s (maybe 6 or 7) to go on the Borderlands line and Conwy Valley which could be maintained at Chester (if you add the facilities there).

Especially if you're in Exeter.

But if you were in Exeter wanting to go to London and you boarded the train to Waterloo, you would only be on until Exeter Central. Then you would double back and take FGW to Paddington instead!

 

[Domh245]

If the 185s could all be released then they could goto SWTs to replace the 158s/9s, would mean just extensions to the relevant depot(s) where the 444s and 450s are maintained and the engines tweaked so they don't use up so much fuel (doubtful the full power of the engines would be needed)

If we've learnt anything from the 350/4 introduction, it's that unless you are building the depot from scratch, or are introducing an entire new fleet under a maintenance contract, there isn't much point shoehorning new units into an existing depot. Sure the chaps at Northam could fix some of the parts of a 185, such as doors or air conditioning, but they'd have to relearn pretty much everything else, which (as mentioned earlier) didn't really work out when the 350s were introduced to ardwick. It'd be easier to either rebrand Salisbury depot as "Siemens Salisbury depot" or (if the maintenance contract has run out) just leave it as it is and move them over!

 

[northwichcat]

That actually seems like a somewhat realistic idea, the 185s would look nice in South West Train's livery, but what is the seating like? I would imagine it would not be suitable for the whole 3.5 hour journey between Exeter and London without a refurb.

TPE use 185s on services up to 3.75 hours in length.

The seats in standard class are 2+2 with every seat being either a table seat or having a fold down table. The leg room is more generous than on 158s but the seats are firmer.

I think the biggest problems with SWT having them are a lack of corridor connections and the First Class section being smaller. (When TPE took on the ex-SWT 170s they reduced the amount of FC seating.)

 

[sprinterguy]

That actually seems like a somewhat realistic idea, the 185s would look nice in South West Train's livery, but what is the seating like? I would imagine it would not be suitable for the whole 3.5 hour journey between Exeter and London without a refurb.

More important than the quality of the seating would be the quantity: A 3-car class 185 has far fewer seats than a 3-car class 159, and you're also limited to a maximum train length of 9 carriages: No more 10-car class 159/158 formations out of Waterloo, and hence a lot more people standing during the peaks.

In terms of manufacturer commonality for South West Trains, and fleet commonality for the large number of provincial operators who could take on the released class 158s and 159s, it makes a lot of sense; but for the travelling public of the Waterloo to Exeter route, not so much.

 

[stockport1]

Especially if you're in Exeter.

my back hurts thinking about it!

 

[LO_commuter]

Hi, I'm new here
I have an idea for rolling stock cascade: move HSTs to ATW, along with converted Class 442 non-driving trailers, to operate the North Wales and Marches lines, freeing the 175s for Northern Rail's non-electrified services across Yorkshire, allowing 142s there to be retired.

 

[Techniquest]

Hi and welcome to the forum

I see to recall multiple people complaining about the idea of HSTs moving to ATW when they reach the end of their frontline service days with FGW etc. I'd love to see HSTs on the North and West, finally getting proper long-distance trains on ATW's premier line. Re-gear them if necessary for 100mph and give them a good quality refresh, I can only see them being a massively useful asset for ATW. Quite, if enough could be sourced, get some in for the Cambrian too. Fit them with ERTMS and reform them into 2+5 formation and I could see them being rather popular with passengers there too. Of course, that means the end of portion working on the Cambrian, but you'd not need that so much with a 5-coach train anyway.

442s, let's not go there...

I'm sure the passengers on Northern would love 175s, one heck of a step-up from 142s, 150s and 156s on the Mid-Cheshire line, and from 158s on the Settle and Carlisle too! That being said, I'm not sure they'd suit the many stop-start services Northern have though.

 

[Train man]

The class 159 would be good on Scottish intercity services before HSTs arrive

 

[northwichcat]

I'm sure the passengers on Northern would love 175s, one heck of a step-up from 142s, 150s and 156s on the Mid-Cheshire line, and from 158s on the Settle and Carlisle too! That being said, I'm not sure they'd suit the many stop-start services Northern have though.

A service on the Mid-Cheshire line which arrived in Manchester at around 08:20 was operated by 175s when they were first introduced and stayed as such even after North Wales routes got transferred to Wales & Borders. When Northern took over that service became a 142 overnight and later got improved to a 150. The Mid-Cheshire line passengers commuting in to Manchester weren't exactly happy about the change.

 

[iantherev]

You can have our 159s if you like but we want them replaced by nothing less than Class442s top and tailed by class 50s

 

[D365]

You can have our 159s if you like but we want them replaced by nothing less than Class442s top and tailed by class 50s

Quite sure it's well-documented that the Class 159s were introduced due to Class 50s being unsuited to the stop-start nature of the route.

 

[Rapidash]

To the OP: Psst, theres a bit of track that goes beyond Bristol.Whats going to be cascaded down there?!

 

[507021]

When the Class 313s are replaced and if Merseyrail hasn't received new stock by that time then I'd like to see some 313s to be cascaded to Merseyside to boost capacity. I think it would be an effective solution until new stock is procured

 

[D6975]

Quite sure it's well-documented that the Class 159s were introduced due to Class 50s being unsuited to the stop-start nature of the route.

Didn't 47s replace the 50s, then 159s replace the 47s?

185s are unsuitable for the mule due to their very low seats/metre of train length, much better to put them somewhere that makes use of their hill climbing ability. Calder Valley seems an obvious choice, keeps them close to their existing maintenance home. Half hourly Blackpool-Scarborough via Copy Pit anyone???

91s and MK4s have been much discussed. Not suitable for most routes due to load/unload times. Long distance, few intermediate stops, not much to choose from once IEP is fully up and running. Anglia is the only option that seems sensible, but new Intercity EMUs have already been proposed as the next move over there. Ousting Voyagers from WCML under the wires running is another long shot for them.

 

[glbotu]

Didn't 47s replace the 50s, then 159s replace the 47s?

I think 47s displaced 50s on GW Semi-Fasts (Oxfords etc.) which moved the 50s onto West of England Main Line. The 50s then got kicked off there for 159s.

 

[The Ham]

91s and MK4s have been much discussed. Not suitable for most routes due to load/unload times. Long distance, few intermediate stops, not much to choose from once IEP is fully up and running. Anglia is the only option that seems sensible, but new Intercity EMUs have already been proposed as the next move over there. Ousting Voyagers from WCML under the wires running is another long shot for them.

...other than the problem with the WCML is that they currently are unable to tilt, meaning that they would be no good.

 

[Wolfie]

91s and MK4s have been much discussed. Not suitable for most routes due to load/unload times. Long distance, few intermediate stops, not much to choose from once IEP is fully up and running. Anglia is the only option that seems sensible, but new Intercity EMUs have already been proposed as the next move over there. Ousting Voyagers from WCML under the wires running is another long shot for them.

...other than the problem with the WCML is that they currently are unable to tilt, meaning that they would be no good.

Oh, and how many WCML Voyager routes are completely under the wires? I can see one or two 'little' problems with 91/Mk4 combos going to, for example, Shrewsbury, Hollyhead and (for now) Blackpool as well.....

 

[iantherev]

Quite sure it's well-documented that the Class 159s were introduced due to Class 50s being unsuited to the stop-start nature of the route.

I speak with my tongue in my cheek (don't worry - my congregation don't always get my sense of humour either)
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I'm very flattered that our 159s are so in demand but at the moment they do seem to me to the best choice for the route in flexibility and comfort. A nine car 222 would be overkill west of Salisbury for most of the time and two five cars combining at Salisbury would have no passage between the units for the train manager or access to the buffet (trolley).
Also at the moment if a 6 car set calls at the shorter stations at Whimple, Feniton or Tisbury, passengers have access to the whole of the train rather than just the set they are able to board which is important if the train is already well-filled at the front. In view of the skewing of train formations because of the need at the London end and the need of flexibility what we have works very well. Class 185s would have similar inter-unit connection issues

 

[D6975]

I think 47s displaced 50s on GW Semi-Fasts (Oxfords etc.) which moved the 50s onto West of England Main Line. The 50s then got kicked off there for 159s.

No, just checked 47s did displace 50s from the mule and were subsequently replaced by 159s.
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Oh, and how many WCML Voyager routes are completely under the wires? I can see one or two 'little' problems with 91/Mk4 combos going to, for example, Shrewsbury, Hollyhead and (for now) Blackpool as well.....

Lots actually, and once you've got more electric sets, you recast the diagrams accordingly anyway. At the moment there are lots of Voyager turns that are completely under the wires anyway because of the integration of Eus - Birm - Scotland services. It's been discussed on here quite a bit. Baby pendos were put forward as the solution a while ago, they would have been electric only, so why not 91s? And we're talking about future cascades, not now anyway. And by the time the cascades happen, Blackpool will be done, so even more diagrams completely under the wires.