Machine out of use

[pethadine82]

I arrived at Peterborough at 9.30pm yesterday.
I went to the fast-ticket machine at the side and an error came up with unable to complete transaction. I decided to video the situation.
Time was ticking on so went to the next one.
Same thing.

The travel centre was closed, I had attempted to pay but the machine failed to complete the transaction.
I remembered that there was another ticket machine on platform one, but this was past the gateline, and there were no RPI doing a block.
This ticket machine did accept my payment, and I was able to purchase my ticket. All this time camera still rolling

My question is this, do we really start having to video record things when give the circumstances are not in our favour and we have attempted to do the right things but the TOC has let us down.

I would have sought to find the TM and explain to him showing him the video evidence and would have expected him/her to sell me the ticket that I intended to purchase.
However the TM may have sold me the open return in which case I would have taken to writing to the MD of East Coast and passenger focus enclosing my evidence.

But is all of this really necessary when dealing with the railway? Thank god for smartphones!

 

[34D]

To protect yourself, and avoid situations where advice is to "pay the settlement to avoid court" then in my personal view, yes it is necessary.

 

[Squaddie]

My question is this, do we really start having to video record things when give the circumstances are not in our favour and we have attempted to do the right things but the TOC has let us down.

I think the question we should be asking is why ticket machines (and so much else) in the UK is so unreliable and prone to break down.

I make an average of six or eight train journeys per month in Switzerland, always buying my ticket from a machine, and only once in two years have I encountered a machine out of order - and that was because it was out of paper. Many Swiss ticket machines are on the platform, completely exposed to the elements, but still manage to work even when there's two feet of snow on the ground.

So... why is everything in the UK so ****?

 

[najaB]

I think the question we should be asking is why ticket machines (and so much else) in the UK is so unreliable and prone to break down.

I make an average of six or eight train journeys per month in Switzerland, always buying my ticket from a machine, and only once in two years have I encountered a machine out of order - and that was because it was out of paper. Many Swiss ticket machines are on the platform, completely exposed to the elements, but still manage to work even when there's two feet of snow on the ground.

So... why is everything in the UK so ****?

Conversely, I've only once been in the situation where I couldn't collect a ticket and that was because the entire Scotrail network went down on the east of Scotland and even the ticket office was unable to access anything. And that's with making something like 100 journeys a year.

 

[455driver]

So... why is everything in the UK so ****?

Because it is all built down to a price, or 'value for money' as the Government like to call it!
I notice that 'value for money' doesnt come into it when they are sorting out their second homes etc but that is probably best kept for another thread!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Because it is all built down to a price, or 'value for money' as the Government like to call it!
I notice that 'value for money' doesnt come into it when they are sorting out their second homes etc but that is probably best kept for another thread!

I tried to use a machine today which would not read my card. I was forever getting the message "welcome"... Fortunately there was a second machine which worked fine (using the same card). The ticket office was closed.

Now suppose the second machine hadn't been working, what could I have done?

 

[island]

I think the question we should be asking is why ticket machines (and so much else) in the UK is so unreliable and prone to break down.

I make an average of six or eight train journeys per month in Switzerland, always buying my ticket from a machine, and only once in two years have I encountered a machine out of order - and that was because it was out of paper. Many Swiss ticket machines are on the platform, completely exposed to the elements, but still manage to work even when there's two feet of snow on the ground.

So... why is everything in the UK so ****?

SBB/CFF/FFS is state-owned.

 

[Squaddie]

Because it is all built down to a price, or 'value for money' as the Government like to call it!

And I think that's pretty much the answer: I'd imagine that the robust, reliable ticket machines you find right across Switzerland and other countries cost many times what a ticket machine in the UK costs, and the railway companies here would simply not be prepared to spend that amount of money. (Even though it probably costs them more in the long run, as they have to keep repairing the machines when they break down).

 

[Hadders]

I don't think it's necessary to record these sort of things on smartphones, although I can see how it could be useful.

If I was in the OP's position and unable to obtain a ticket I would seek out the guard immediately on boarding an explain the situation in a polite, assertive manner. I'd be confident of being able obtain the ticket I wanted but if this proved not to be the case I'd pay up and take it up subsequently with the TOC by letter.

Over the years I've found that a concise, polite letter of complaint to customer relations usually yields a satisfactory outcome. I don't usually involve the MD or chief executive unless I've given customer services a chance to deal with a complaint first.

During summer 2012 (1st week of the Olympics IIRC) I travelled from Milton Keynes to Manchester for a business meeting. I arrived at MKC more than 30 minutes before my train was due as I had to collect my tickets from the TVM. Upon arrival the queue was out of the door (something I've never seen before of since). After 20 minutes in the queue and barely moving it was obvious that I wasn't going to be able to get my tickets.

I asked staff for advice (MKC is operated by London Midland) and they told me to board the train and sort out my tickets later, a classic 'man on the platform' situation. I managed to get the gateline staff to let me through and on boarding the train immediately found the guard and had a word. Although a little sceptical she allowed me to travel. A few minutes later she was going through the train doing a ticket check and showed me a message that had just come through on her blackberry about passengers from MKC potentially boarding without tickets. Eventually managed to collect my tickets when I arrived at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[sarahj]

Simples, the machines in Switzerland will be owned and run by SBB-CFF-FFS. In this country its prob on some silly contract with atos involving silly call out fees. You have to know that the rail companies themselves prob own very little. It would not supprise me that the pen the pm lends me when I sign on is bought through some contact and while only a cheap bic cost some £1.00 in fees etc.

 

[Wyvern]

I guess it depends on the train company, but on the occasions when the machines round my way have broken down, the guard already knew, having been informed by control. On the one occasion he hadnt been informed. he was quite happy to take my word. (Do they still get commission on EMT?). Sometimes also, a light switches on on the machine which can be seen from a distance and, I think, indicates that it is out of order.

 

[jon0844]

We also have the crazy situation where someone comes out to fix a TVM (not just reload it with ticket stock) and works for, or on behalf of, that machine manufacturer. So when told that another machine also has problems (such as the touchscreen being faulty) they say it needs to be done by someone else - followed by a comment about how those machines are crap.

So one machine gets done, the other does not.

Surely there's a company that can be authorised and trained to service and repair all machines used at any station/TOC? Maybe some do, but some clearly don't.

Mind you, the usual problems for me are simple ones like no change or no ticket stock. Pretty simple ones to fix, but over the years, I've personally encountered the ticket office close on a Friday evening (7-8pm) and all three machines are out of ticket stock so obviously weren't restocked. So no way to buy a ticket from then until close, on a Friday night, or presumably much of Saturday. No permit to travel machine either!

Imagine if banks didn't bother to fill ATMs before a weekend, or indeed any evening?

Taking photos or video is definitely a good idea.

 

[RPI]

Very rarely see them out of service in south Devon, and when one is its usually out of tickets, the station staff carry out fingertip maintenance on the TVM'S on FGW

 

[KneeOn]

I arrived at Peterborough at 9.30pm yesterday.
I went to the fast-ticket machine at the side and an error came up with unable to complete transaction. I decided to video the situation.
Time was ticking on so went to the next one.
Same thing.

The travel centre was closed, I had attempted to pay but the machine failed to complete the transaction.
I remembered that there was another ticket machine on platform one, but this was past the gateline, and there were no RPI doing a block.
This ticket machine did accept my payment, and I was able to purchase my ticket. All this time camera still rolling

My question is this, do we really start having to video record things when give the circumstances are not in our favour and we have attempted to do the right things but the TOC has let us down.

I would have sought to find the TM and explain to him showing him the video evidence and would have expected him/her to sell me the ticket that I intended to purchase.
However the TM may have sold me the open return in which case I would have taken to writing to the MD of East Coast and passenger focus enclosing my evidence.

But is all of this really necessary when dealing with the railway? Thank god for smartphones!

If you've made reasonable efforts and (i don't know PBO very well) some of the machines are down in one cluster then this will (in theory) show up at Edmonton where the TVM's can be monitored. Therefore you'd be fine. A photo would do of the machines if an RPI gets suspicious though.

 

[Tracky]

Don't confuse government owned with well looked after. I'm not sure our government would be any less penny pinching than our franchised TOCs.

I do think passengers should be more supportive of ticket offices. Many don't use em, and won't bat an eyelid at reductions in hours and de-staffing. The problem will come when those same TOCs, on the basis of machines of dubious reliability, implement penalty fares and prosecutions with arms length revenue protection companies.

 

[Llanigraham]

Imagine if banks didn't bother to fill ATMs before a weekend, or indeed any evening?

Happens regularly around here!
Now the pubs offer cash-back.

 

[Tom B]

We also have the crazy situation where someone comes out to fix a TVM (not just reload it with ticket stock) and works for, or on behalf of, that machine manufacturer. So when told that another machine also has problems (such as the touchscreen being faulty) they say it needs to be done by someone else - followed by a comment about how those machines are crap.

So one machine gets done, the other does not.

Surely there's a company that can be authorised and trained to service and repair all machines used at any station/TOC? Maybe some do, but some clearly don't.

Mind you, the usual problems for me are simple ones like no change or no ticket stock. Pretty simple ones to fix, but over the years, I've personally encountered the ticket office close on a Friday evening (7-8pm) and all three machines are out of ticket stock so obviously weren't restocked. So no way to buy a ticket from then until close, on a Friday night, or presumably much of Saturday. No permit to travel machine either!

Imagine if banks didn't bother to fill ATMs before a weekend, or indeed any evening?

Taking photos or video is definitely a good idea.

I am aware of contracted maintenance firms who send engineers to a particular site to undertake an allocated task. They are specifically told that they must only undertake that task. If, when they sign in at the site and speak to the person in charge they are told of another defect - even if it is one which they are perfectly able to attend to - they cannot do it, the person has to ring in to the call centre and log another task. This task may be allocated to the engineer, or it may be that he is sent somewhere else and another person is dispatched hours later! The rational thing to do would be to undertake the second job and retrospectively open and close it on the "system". Many of these companies work on a central control system with each engineer having a PDA and being told to strictly do what they are told. It's ridiculous, and so wasteful.

 

[BestWestern]

Simples, the machines in Switzerland will be owned and run by SBB-CFF-FFS. In this country its prob on some silly contract with atos involving silly call out fees. You have to know that the rail companies themselves prob own very little. It would not supprise me that the pen the pm lends me when I sign on is bought through some contact and while only a cheap bic cost some £1.00 in fees etc.

Absolutely spot on! Though a very amusing post, sadly also very true in essence. The TOCs spend a truly eye watering amount on these things, due to the ludicrous policy of dozens of short term franchises rather than a few long term ones.

And yet we cannot afford all these frivolous staff....

 

[34D]

I am aware of contracted maintenance firms who send engineers to a particular site to undertake an allocated task. They are specifically told that they must only undertake that task. If, when they sign in at the site and speak to the person in charge they are told of another defect - even if it is one which they are perfectly able to attend to - they cannot do it, the person has to ring in to the call centre and log another task. This task may be allocated to the engineer, or it may be that he is sent somewhere else and another person is dispatched hours later! The rational thing to do would be to undertake the second job and retrospectively open and close it on the "system". Many of these companies work on a central control system with each engineer having a PDA and being told to strictly do what they are told. It's ridiculous, and so wasteful.

This is in line with my own experiences of outsourced providers.

I remember a couple of years ago trying to get a projector repaired. Bulb was £25 on eBay. Following process cost over £300.

 

[Flamingo]

Not unique to the railway. I believe the NHS and MOD have similar issues, from talking to friends in both.

 

[Rich McLean]

Not unique to the railway. I believe the NHS and MOD have similar issues, from talking to friends in both.

Your right about the MOD, especially in the IT side of it. £35 per month for an account. Each UAD is a 3 figure sum a month. Now try and work out how many DII Machines are in the MOD alone. Eye watering amount. An office move if it requires new infrastructure (installing a few network taps) costs thousands and takes months

 

[Tom B]

This is where waste occurs in the government, not in paying dinnerladies more than a 1% rise!

A ticket machine should in any case be designed such that station staff can complete basic procedures (such as unjamming a ticket)?!

I once worked somewhere with contracted out cleaning. A new sink was installed in a particular area and above it was a soap dispenser. The cleaning manager was asked to add this soap dispenser to his list to be topped up on the rounds - £600 for a variation to the contract!

In this instance, logic prevailed, and a £5 carton of soap was purchased and used to fill it up!

 

[Deerfold]

This is where waste occurs in the government, not in paying dinnerladies more than a 1% rise!

But TOCs are private companies, surely.

 

[Tom B]

But TOCs are private companies, surely.

Who are subsidised to a great deal by the taxpayer and who will pass on any increased costs to the farepayer.

 

[Deerfold]

Who are subsidised to a great deal by the taxpayer and who will pass on any increased costs to the farepayer.

Indeed. But aren't these the private companies that are supposed to be saving us from public sector waste?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not unique to the railway. I believe the NHS and MOD have similar issues, from talking to friends in both.

It's not a public v private thing, it's an outsourcing thing.

We've had it at our place. IT support was in-house and they'd come and do a dozen odd-jobs whilst they were here on a bigger report ticket. Now it's been outsourced and so each and every one of those odd-jobs has to be recorded and logged separately, involving a separate engineer visit each time, all billable.

It's how the outsourcers make their money.

 

[radamfi]

In Switzerland, there would be a working ticket machine wherever you go, but you almost never need to use it as you can get buy a mobile ticket as you stand on the platform. You can get any type of domestic ticket, not just Advance-type tickets, but walk on tickets as well. In the Netherlands, all you ever need to do is to get a smartcard with auto-topup and you will never need to visit a ticket machine ever again.

So the problem is the British insistence of having to have ticket machine printed tickets for everything, even for tickets bought online.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Not unique to the railway. I believe the NHS and MOD have similar issues, from talking to friends in both.

Quite true.

There are corresponding procedures in other large public and private sector bodies.

I'm arguing with a Local Authority at present about the wastefulness in cost of such a massive multiplication of the actual work involved to complete simple tasks, but the extra admin work created by the 'argument' seems only to increase the cost to 'the taxpayer' rather than reduce it!

 

[Tom B]

It's not a public v private thing, it's an outsourcing thing.

We've had it at our place. IT support was in-house and they'd come and do a dozen odd-jobs whilst they were here on a bigger report ticket. Now it's been outsourced and so each and every one of those odd-jobs has to be recorded and logged separately, involving a separate engineer visit each time, all billable.

It's how the outsourcers make their money.

Precisely.

Contractors often price their services at a figure that will make them very little (if any) profit, knowing that they will make their money from the "extras". A contractor I know of charged somebody £150 to paint a brick grey (using surplus paint from another job, taking approx 10 minutes) and £500 to put up some shelves (a morning's work).

 

[jon0844]

In Switzerland, there would be a working ticket machine wherever you go, but you almost never need to use it as you can get buy a mobile ticket as you stand on the platform. You can get any type of domestic ticket, not just Advance-type tickets, but walk on tickets as well. In the Netherlands, all you ever need to do is to get a smartcard with auto-topup and you will never need to visit a ticket machine ever again.

So the problem is the British insistence of having to have ticket machine printed tickets for everything, even for tickets bought online.

I'm mostly in favour of a national smartcard system and being able to use pay as you go (or have your credit/debit card charged for more expensive journeys) but there will be a lot of opposition given the current ticketing system.

Ultimately, to have a nice easy ticketing system that is easy and stress-free is going to close loads of loopholes and the current setup with cheaper/protected fares etc.