m ticket and flat battery

[Clip]

Is that purchased from the 'oh look at us all clever' TOC that developed and launched the ticket in the first place?

Which is down to passengers saying that they would love to have more options to purchase tickets and one of them being a m-ticket. They asked - we delivered.

 

[tannedfrog]

Personally: Because it lets me purchase an advance ticket up to 10 minutes before my journey (XC)

Same here, although I thought it was 15 minutes.

Example - travelling on a weekend afternoon from Birmingham to Derby:

- £8.30 advance m-ticket bought shortly before
- Walk-up ticket from the ticket machine at £15.90

 

[radamfi]

FGW now offer m-tickets on flexible tickets in Devon & Cornwall.

Just checked out the app. I notice it offers Off Peak/Anytime returns with the return portion valid for a month just like a normal paper ticket. Is there any enforcement that you aren't using the return portion more than once?

 

[greatkingrat]

I assume that is why you have to activate the ticket before use.

 

[yorkie]

Here's one example (Narborough to Manchester Piccadilly departing tonight at around 18:30iirc)

Ok you can have that one (a tiny number of people might benefit then!) :P

Though if I required a single from Narborough to Manchester, I'd buy a single to Derby, and a return ticket that is a well-known* good value loophole ticket that I won't mention on this forum, which is only £3.10 more than the Advance fare quoted, and not bad for a fully flexible ticket

(* I mean well known among people 'in the know', but not well known among TOC/RSP spies, so it's not getting posted here )
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Same here, although I thought it was 15 minutes.

Example - travelling on a weekend afternoon from Birmingham to Derby:

- £8.30 advance m-ticket bought shortly before
- Walk-up ticket from the ticket machine at £15.90

Or £8.50 if you buy a walk-up ticket that gives itineraries via BHM.

 

[radamfi]

I assume that is why you have to activate the ticket before use.

Oh, so I suppose that means you can't break the return journey over multiple days?

 

[TEW]

Break of Journey over multiple days is permitted. The brief on the m-tickets I've seen specifically mentions that issue. Basically states that if a customer explains that they have broken their journey then that should be accepted.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Has this not occurred to anyone else?

One huge advantage of an m-ticket, for the TOCs, is this: a paper ticket, such as a One-Day Travelcard, can potentially be misused, if the purchaser uses it properly and then sells / gives it to a friend to use.
A phone (and the m-ticket stored thereon) is far less likely to be entrusted to somebody else. The owner is more likely to need the device him/herself, for making calls, sending texts, listening to iTunes etc, and is unlikely to part with an iPhone so a mate can have a free ride.

 

[Deerfold]

Has this not occurred to anyone else?

One huge advantage of an m-ticket, for the TOCs, is this: a paper ticket, such as a One-Day Travelcard, can potentially be misused, if the purchaser uses it properly and then sells / gives it to a friend to use.
A phone (and the m-ticket stored thereon) is far less likely to be entrusted to somebody else. The owner is more likely to need the device him/herself, for making calls, sending texts, listening to iTunes etc, and is unlikely to part with an iPhone so a mate can have a free ride.

I think a lot of that's already been done in London with the move to Oyster and contactless.

 

[jon0844]

Smartcards are a better long term solution than m-tickets. I got one for a local bus, and - to be fair - it worked well.. but it was slow to hold my phone over the barcode scanner, and for the machine to detect it.

On one bus the driver just asked me to show it to him and waved me on (so it could have been a barcode for anything).

I suspect that IF I did an experiment by creating a fake barcode and text, then saved the image so it could be displayed as if from the app, I could attempt to use it - have it clearly fail - and the driver would then look, and simply read the (fake) text and let me travel. I say this because I'm sure the policy is to let people go if the reader doesn't work.

Now has anyone thought of that?

 

[radamfi]

I have also thought that smartcards are preferable over m-tickets, but I think the sheer ubiquitous nature of mobile devices is forcing transport providers to cater for them. Places like Brighton and Crawley that started out with smartcards now also offer most tickets on m-ticket. In fact, I have switched from smartcard to m-ticket as Metrobus now offer single tickets on mobile whereas they only offer a minimum of 5 singles on smartcard.

Obviously the most high profile and extensive smartcard system is in the Netherlands, but even they are now trialing mobile ticketing:

http://www.treinreiziger.nl/actueel/binnenland/proef_reizen_met_mobiel_succes_bij_arriva-146605

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Has this not occurred to anyone else?

One huge advantage of an m-ticket, for the TOCs, is this: a paper ticket, such as a One-Day Travelcard, can potentially be misused, if the purchaser uses it properly and then sells / gives it to a friend to use.
A phone (and the m-ticket stored thereon) is far less likely to be entrusted to somebody else. The owner is more likely to need the device him/herself, for making calls, sending texts, listening to iTunes etc, and is unlikely to part with an iPhone so a mate can have a free ride.

So, assuming an m-ticket is sent to the user in the form of an email or text message, what's to stop that person forwarding it on to their mate making the same journey on a different train, meaning effectively 2 people are using the same m-ticket?

 

[jon0844]

There are different ways to do it.

My bus app works by allowing me to buy tickets on the phone, and then storing those tickets on the app in a list of available tickets. Nothing comes via email. There's nothing to print out, no PDF to share multiple times.

When I redeem a ticket on any given day (so far I can only buy day tickets, which is frustrating), I get a new screen that shows the barcode and text (to confirm what's in the code, except there's no unique text here so easily faked). I also notice that the barcode changes every few seconds! Never noticed that until last week.

Clearly you can't have an ever changing code on a bit of paper, so m-tickets are NOT the same as e-tickets.

As I said before, I can't screen capture the barcode page. It's blocked (an OS feature that developers can use) so there's no way to share it that way.

But good as this idea is, it would be better to be working on storing tickets on a phone and letting me tap on the reader. Now Apple has reinvented NFC, we might one day see this happen now, and m-tickets can go as quickly as they came.

 

[radamfi]

So, assuming an m-ticket is sent to the user in the form of an email or text message, what's to stop that person forwarding it on to their mate making the same journey on a different train, meaning effectively 2 people are using the same m-ticket?

Belgium do use text messages, and so here you have to have relevant ID with the device.

 

[BorisWiffWaff]

If you have an m-ticket make sure your phone is charged. If it ain't charged it's your own fault. There are plenty of ways to keep your phone charged these days. If I'm travelling I carry a portable battery charger that can charge my phone 4 times so more than enough for a days travelling.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Never ever store your UK rail ticket on your mobile phone.

I did once. Days later my phone was nicked. Chiltern Railways were not prepared to send a replacement ticket to my new phone.

UK mobile phone tickets do not work.

 

[greatkingrat]

Never ever store your UK rail ticket on your mobile phone.

I did once. Days later my phone was nicked. Chiltern Railways were not prepared to send a replacement ticket to my new phone.

UK mobile phone tickets do not work.

If your wallet had been nicked, you wouldn't have got a replacement for a paper ticket either.

 

[jon0844]

Having your phone nicked is a rather extreme and irrelevant reason not to use them!

 

[radamfi]

My friend recently got a printed e-ticket from DB for an advance purchase fare and automatically got a Handy ticket at the same time. So losing your phone does not necessarily mean you lose your ticket. It depends on the conditions imposed by the operator.

 

[jon0844]

Printed tickets are different though. When I was in Germany last week, a lady had her e-ticket and presented it, along with a payment card that was swiped. Plus it was an ICE train, and she was in a reserved seat.

With an m-ticket, I guess the idea is that you don't need to prove anything. If you have that code, you can travel. There's NO possibility of a copy existing (well, bar hacking the app).

 

[radamfi]

Printed tickets are different though.

The point is, it would appear that if the advance purchase ticket in Germany on your phone is lost, you could at least use a printed ticket instead. That option doesn't seem to be available in the UK.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With an m-ticket, I guess the idea is that you don't need to prove anything. If you have that code, you can travel. There's NO possibility of a copy existing (well, bar hacking the app).

The Handy tickets in Germany also require ID:

http://www.bahn.de/p/view/buchung/m...07=L01_S01_D001_KIN0032_nav-handy-ticket_LZ01

Identifizierungskarte

Das Handy-Ticket gilt nur in Verbindung mit der beim Kauf angegebenen eigenen gültigen Identifizierungskarte. Mögliche Identifizierungskarten sind:

BahnCard (eine vorläufige BahnCard gilt nicht als Identifizierungskarte)
Kreditkarte (American Express, MasterCard, Diners Club, Visa oder JCB)
ec-Karte/Maestro
Personalausweis (aus Deutschland, Österreich, Schweiz, Frankreich, Niederlande, Belgien, Luxemburg oder Italien)
bahn.bonus Card

 

[duncanp]

Lothian Buses in Edinburgh offer m-tickets for use on buses and trams, and this question is specifically answered:-

My phone battery has run out before I could present my m-ticket to the bus driver or TSA.It is your responsibility to ensure that your smartphone has enough battery power to be able to display a valid m-ticket to the driver or TSA and, subsequently, any TfE official throughout your journey. If you cannot do this, you will need to pay for a ticket from the driver or, on Edinburgh Trams, pay the Standard Fare

I would imagine that each TOC has its own terms and conditions, but as always it is the passengers responsibility to ensure that they have a valid ticket and can produce it when required This would include making sure that any device on which a ticket is stored has sufficient battery life for the duration of the journey.

Otherwise, "I've got a ticket on my phone, but the battery is flat" could become the latest excuse for fare dodgers.

 

[jon0844]

The point is, it would appear that if the advance purchase ticket in Germany on your phone is lost, you could at least use a printed ticket instead. That option doesn't seem to be available in the UK.

If you had a ticket for a specific train, and a specific seat, I am not sure you need the same level of security. Print out 100 tickets and only one person can be in that seat.

Where it gets problematic is if you don't have to sit in your reserved seat, as you could then have two copies and hope staff don't notice.

The solution in Germany it seems is that you provide ID or a payment card. In Sweden, they'll scan the barcode and then tick the name off a list (thus rendering any duplicates unusable).

In the UK it seems that many companies have adopted a system that intends to protect a code in a way that isn't the same as elsewhere, or how you'd do things on a plane (a controlled environment where a duplicate would be spotted). In theory, it's a good idea - and I can't remember the last time I had a phone battery die, so it's not actually that big a deal (I also have a portable charger so can top up a phone battery on the move if I have to).

In the case of using a m-ticket on a normal train, or a bus, the systems that would require proof of ID, or checking off a list obviously couldn't work. In theory you could render a code 'used' if everyone that checked, and every bus, was connected - and one day that would likely be true, but we don't have a fully connected network of transport yet.

So, while I'd fall in the camp that says don't use them as they have far more risks than a normal ticket, if used 'properly' then there's not really a problem. The most important thing is that people are aware. My Intalink app for buses DOES make it clear before you purchase. If I choose to ignore the rules, more fool me.

 

[radamfi]

It is a lot easier for operators to move to mobile tickets compared to smartcards as much less physical infrastructure is needed and it does not require a change in the fare system. Removing the need to visit a ticket office or machine is a massive bonus.

Otherwise, "I've got a ticket on my phone, but the battery is flat" could become the latest excuse for fare dodgers.

I'm sure if guards started saying, "That's OK, I've got a USB charger in the cab", that scam would quickly die out.

 

[jon0844]

Mobile tickets won't be around for that long though. Smartcards and phones that can store tickets, checked via NFC, will replace them.

As such, however cheap it might be it will be a stop gap solution. It may be another 5 or even 10 years before they go completely, but in the grand scheme of things, they'll have come and gone far quicker than other types of ticket.

Smart ticketing will then become standard, and paper tickets (or print-at-home tickets) will be history forever.

The only reason we'll have them for longer than this will be the lack of investment in the railway, but I think everyone knows that the current system of ticketing has to change. So the money on enabling smarter options will have to be spent eventually.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Mobile tickets won't be around for that long though. Smartcards and phones that can store tickets, checked via NFC, will replace them.

As such, however cheap it might be it will be a stop gap solution. It may be another 5 or even 10 years before they go completely, but in the grand scheme of things, they'll have come and gone far quicker than other types of ticket.

Smart ticketing will then become standard, and paper tickets (or print-at-home tickets) will be history forever.

The only reason we'll have them for longer than this will be the lack of investment in the railway, but I think everyone knows that the current system of ticketing has to change. So the money on enabling smarter options will have to be spent eventually.

I disagree. Believe it or not, not everybody owns (or wants) a smartphone. Unless legislation is put in place to force everyone to buy one, there will always be a need for paper tickets.

 

[Deerfold]

I disagree. Believe it or not, not everybody owns (or wants) a smartphone. Unless legislation is put in place to force everyone to buy one, there will always be a need for paper tickets.

Or seperate smartcards.

You already can't get a paper ticket on a TfL London bus.

 

[radamfi]

I disagree. Believe it or not, not everybody owns (or wants) a smartphone. Unless legislation is put in place to force everyone to buy one, there will always be a need for paper tickets.

The Netherlands no longer has regular paper tickets for domestic journeys. They were originally planning to force everyone to buy their own plastic smartcard. They sell single use, disposable smartcards for a 1 euro surcharge, which require to be touched in and out like a plastic smartcard.