Luton Airport DART ticketing discussion

[Bletchleyite]

My EMT tickets from London St Pancras to Luton Airport next month are £5 advance each way with a railcard discount. If that includes the DART as seems to be the case then that’s a brilliant deal.

Wonder if the Airport to Parkway part of it is for any DART service or just for the specific time as seen on the online journey planner?

I very much doubt that the DART operates to any kind of timetable, none of the other automated people movers do.

 

[Haywain]

My EMT tickets from London St Pancras to Luton Airport next month are £5 advance each way with a railcard discount. If that includes the DART as seems to be the case then that’s a brilliant deal.

If your tickets show a destination of Luton Airport, and not Luton Airport Parkway, the DART will be included.

 

[spag23]

You can get April Advance tickets STP>Luton down to just £2.10 if you specify Parkway instead of Airport. So DART is reflected in the £5 price.

 

[Starmill]

Avoid ≠ generally try to avoid, which is what I said. Sometimes there isn't a choice of airports if you're looking to fly direct to a particular destination for a reasonable fare and I never said I was unwilling to fly from Luton.

More to the point, where there is a meaningful choice I would be willing to fly from Luton if the experience of doing so was as good or better than other London airports. I hope for their sake their target market isn't people who are, for some reason, determined to fly from Luton even when it's less convenient and more expensive than the alternatives.

People overwhelmingly book flights on the basis of their headline prices and where they live and want to go to. Luton know that as well as everyone else does. They know most people will either pay £5 or use Arriva or walk. They won't, as you're implying, look to book from Luton then decide not to when they realise the shuttle fare is £5.

 

[smjxm09]

You can get April Advance tickets STP>Luton down to just £2.10 if you specify Parkway instead of Airport. So DART is reflected in the £5 price.

£2.10+£4.90= £7.00 so i would say it isn’t.
There are plenty of people who buy tickets to Parkway and not their intended destination, which is the airport, as I see them queuing by the Dart ticket machines.

On and the staff at the terminal selling railway tickets in high viz jackets work for Thameslink as I asked them today

 

[Cloud Strife]

Okay, while I thought the pricing was reasonable to begin with, in fact it's really quite not acceptable.

A groupsave return ticket from Luton Airport Parkway to St Pancras is coming in at 44 Euro for a Groupsave ticket for 6 people on a Saturday. With the DART, it's 102 Euro. I made the same journey in November and it was 66 Euro for the same tickets, so the DART represents a rather staggering price increase.

 

[Haywain]

Okay, while I thought the pricing was reasonable to begin with, in fact it's really quite not acceptable.

A groupsave return ticket from Luton Airport Parkway to St Pancras is coming in at 44 Euro for a Groupsave ticket on a Saturday. With the DART, it's 102 Euro. I made the same journey in November and it was 66 Euro for the same tickets, so the DART represents a rather staggering price increase.

Because GroupSave doesn't apply on the DART.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Because GroupSave doesn't apply on the DART.

Honestly, this is where the DfT should be tapping Luton Council on the shoulder and saying '...about that expansion plan of yours'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Okay, while I thought the pricing was reasonable to begin with, in fact it's really quite not acceptable.

A groupsave return ticket from Luton Airport Parkway to St Pancras is coming in at 44 Euro for a Groupsave ticket for 6 people on a Saturday. With the DART, it's 102 Euro. I made the same journey in November and it was 66 Euro for the same tickets, so the DART represents a rather staggering price increase.

Just pay for the DART separately.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Just pay for the DART separately.

It does make me wonder: can Luton council block someone from starting a competing bus service?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does make me wonder: can Luton council block someone from starting a competing bus service?

No, and there is one, as has been pointed out more than once. I doubt the railway would allow one access to the forecourt, but just go out the back way and Arriva route A runs something like every 10 minutes for £1.90 from the stops on the road.

 

[spag23]

Just pay for the DART separately.

How does that help? For Cloud Strife's posters party of six, it's still nearly £60, however/whenever it's paid.

 

[spag23]

You can't just swipe your pass.
At least 72 hours before your first journey, go to

Luton DART Concessions | Free Travel for Eligible Passengers

Luton DART concessions are available for eligible residents, bus pass holders and disability badge holders. Find out if you qualify and how to apply for free travel.

www.lutondart.com

to register. You'll need to upload a copy of your ENCTS (bus) pass.
Once your account is set up, you can book your tickets, on the day or in advance.
Beware the "From the Airport" radio button. Don't hit this if your flight starts and ends at Luton.
(I've asked the Company to address this GUI ambiguity, and they are "looking at it")

If you ignore the bit above in bold, the booking system reverses both your DART journeys, and sends you invalid tickets (which you might not notice till you try to use them).
Update. This evening's BBC TV report on the opening included the name of the Luton CEO.
So I emailed him, and he's promised to personally get this GUI issue investigated asap.

 

[smjxm09]

The planned public access by road to the Dart forecourt is no more with the entrance controlled by barriers for taxis only and backup buses in case of Dart failure.

The principal reason for the £4.90 single, £9.80 return ticket price is that the final cost of the Dart will be around £300m. The auditors have reported that £184.7m is unrecoverable in expected ticket sales over 40 years due to interest payments and running costs and that the £184.7m figure was based on the build cost 2 years ago which rapidly rose since then.
Despite the smiles the Dart has been a financial disaster for the town taxpayers who won’t use it.

 

[miklcct]

You can get April Advance tickets STP>Luton down to just £2.10 if you specify Parkway instead of Airport. So DART is reflected in the £5 price.

The Railcard discounted Parkway - Airport fare is £3.20, and the database shows me that the difference from London to the parkway / airport is exactly £4.90 undiscounted at the same price level.

 

[JaJaWa]

It does make me wonder: can Luton council block someone from starting a competing bus service?

Luton Airport were successfully sued when they decided to restrict access to their “approved” bus/coach service a few years back

 

[Bletchleyite]

Luton Airport were successfully sued when they decided to restrict access to their “approved” bus/coach service a few years back

Indeed. But that's different from the railway simply prohibiting buses from their forecourt entirely, as there's now no need for them. It may take the opportunity to rejig it to make it more suitable for car drop offs for instance, or for taxis. It might have trouble with allowing only one bus company in, but it definitely can ban ALL buses from its land.

Nothing to stop someone setting up a competing bus service using stops on the road, though, and as has been pointed out lots of times there IS one.

 

[Cloud Strife]

Despite the smiles the Dart has been a financial disaster for the town taxpayers who won’t use it.

I would hold off on making such proclamations right now. If Luton expands significantly in the next 10 years, it will do a lot of damage to Stansted for the simple reason that it's much easier to access Luton from central London. The cost right now might be horrific, but it might stil pay off.

The planned public access by road to the Dart forecourt is no more with the entrance controlled by barriers for taxis only and backup buses in case of Dart failure.

This is just ridiculous. There's no reason to prevent the Arrival A bus from accessing the DART side of Luton Airport Parkway if they want to.

The fares for single journeys to/from Luton Airport Parkway are fair enough, but there should be a discount for the DART if it's combined with a railway ticket. I wouldn't mind paying £3, but the A bus is reliable and regular enough that it's simply not worth paying the extra.

Luton Airport were successfully sued when they decided to restrict access to their “approved” bus/coach service a few years back

So they already have history for this!

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is just ridiculous. There's no reason to prevent the Arrival A bus from accessing the DART side of Luton Airport Parkway if they want to.

They don't want to. There's simply no reason why they would want to.

While Arriva route A is useful if you really don't want to pay the Dart's high fare, that isn't what it's for. It's an urban local bus service. There'll be far more people using it to get to Parkway to take the train from home, or to get from home to the airport (quite possibly because they work there), than will ever use it to save a few quid, which is just noise-level compared to the hundreds your holiday will cost in total.

Why on earth would they want to slow down Route A, potentially needing an extra bus and driver, to deal with one or two people who don't want to pay and can't be bothered walking ten yards to the road?

With regard to employees I'd be surprised if a special deal for the Dart wasn't offered to airport employees only.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2023 ==

I would hold off on making such proclamations right now. If Luton expands significantly in the next 10 years, it will do a lot of damage to Stansted for the simple reason that it's much easier to access Luton from central London.

Er, is it? Stan"Ex" runs from Liverpool St, in the heart of the City, with no silly little shuttle required whether you have to pay for it or not. (There's one inside the airport, but that's different).

Luton's where you go if you want to fly easyJet or Wizz, Stansted is where you go for Ryanair. I don't think they're really in competition in that sense, because the main airlines barely compete with one another at all - you have to be mad to go against Ryanair because you WILL lose.

It might make inroads on Gatwick, though, and could potentially mean easyJet balancing things back towards Luton a bit, because (other than the fee) both are in a similar position transport-wise (a shuttle at Gatwick being needed to get to the low cost terminal).

 

[Ediswan]

It occurs to me that anybody arriving from north of Luton and determined to save money by using a bus, might be better off transferring at Luton (LUT). Buses there do serve the station forecourt.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It occurs to me that anybody arriving from north of Luton and determined to save money by using a bus, might be better off transferring at Luton (LUT). Buses there do serve the station forecourt.

Indeed, the A serves both, and runs between them mostly on a section of (non guided) busway so won't hit much traffic. Fare from there might be higher, but at the moment that means £2 instead of £1.90.

 

[Haywain]

It occurs to me that anybody arriving from north of Luton and determined to save money by using a bus, might be better off transferring at Luton (LUT). Buses there do serve the station forecourt.

If they are arriving on a Thameslink service they would be better off waiting until they get to Parkway, as the access from platform 1 to the bus stop is all on the same level. At Luton they would have to contend with stairs (no lifts from the platforms) to get out of the station and access the bus stop.

 

[matt_world2004]

It's currently £6.90 off peak for an Elizabeth line train between Heathrow Central and Hayes and Harlington a journey of 4 minutes and 2.3 miles the dart is comparable to that

 

[miklcct]

Well, actually, let's be honest - 95% of passengers are going to use DART all the time and just add that 'small' costs to all the other small costs that probably doubles or triples their actual spend after having first seen the headline price per passenger in the adverts/search engine.

£9.80 return is not a small cost.

They don't want to. There's simply no reason why they would want to.

While Arriva route A is useful if you really don't want to pay the Dart's high fare, that isn't what it's for. It's an urban local bus service. There'll be far more people using it to get to Parkway to take the train from home, or to get from home to the airport (quite possibly because they work there), than will ever use it to save a few quid, which is just noise-level compared to the hundreds your holiday will cost in total.

I'm not flying for a holiday. I'm flying under a strict budget to go to overseas sports races to gain world ranking.

Why on earth would they want to slow down Route A, potentially needing an extra bus and driver, to deal with one or two people who don't want to pay and can't be bothered walking ten yards to the road?

With regard to employees I'd be surprised if a special deal for the Dart wasn't offered to airport employees only.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2023 ==



Er, is it? Stan"Ex" runs from Liverpool St, in the heart of the City, with no silly little shuttle required whether you have to pay for it or not. (There's one inside the airport, but that's different).

StanEx takes much longer from the City because the distance is much further, and Liverpool Street isn't exactly a convenient location in London to arrive into where in practice changing at Tottenham Hale ends up better off for most travellers as well.

Luton's where you go if you want to fly easyJet or Wizz, Stansted is where you go for Ryanair. I don't think they're really in competition in that sense, because the main airlines barely compete with one another at all - you have to be mad to go against Ryanair because you WILL lose.

It might make inroads on Gatwick, though, and could potentially mean easyJet balancing things back towards Luton a bit, because (other than the fee) both are in a similar position transport-wise (a shuttle at Gatwick being needed to get to the low cost terminal).

The train fare to Gatwick is much lower because it's in the Oyster zone, and the accessibility is greater as well by having two direct lines to London, one to the City and one to West End.

 

[Bletchleyite]

£9.80 return is not a small cost.

It is a small cost when taken against the cost of flights and accommodation.

Even on a budget you will spend well over £100 on a trip all things taken into consideration. And lots of unexpected things can happen on trips costing you a tenner (and that's typically too low to claim on insurance).

I'm not flying for a holiday. I'm flying under a strict budget to go to overseas sports races to gain world ranking.

I'm not after a world ranking, but have (when a bit fitter) gone abroad to run marathons. However I'd still call them holidays!

If you can afford to travel overseas, you can afford £9.80. It's the cost of two pints of beer. But if it really bothers you and fitness is your thing (as it seems it is), just walk. It isn't far and will cost you £0.

Meanwhile everyone else will pay it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2023 ==

It's currently £6.90 off peak for an Elizabeth line train between Heathrow Central and Hayes and Harlington a journey of 4 minutes and 2.3 miles the dart is comparable to that

Yes, I suppose the "Heathrow tax", while more hidden, is comparable.

 

[ClivePage]

DART definitely doesn't take Oyster or contactless bank cards. The former might have required complicated negotiations with TfL, I suppose, but not doing bank cards seems extremely stupid, since they are valid from London stations as far as Luton Airport Parkway. Passengers from abroad, or even locals, might reasonably assume that they would be able to pay for the DART the same way.

 

[Ediswan]

DART definitely doesn't take Oyster or contactless bank cards. The former might have required complicated negotiations with TfL, I suppose, but not doing bank cards seems extremely stupid, since they are valid from London stations as far as Luton Airport Parkway. Passengers from abroad, or even locals, might reasonably assume that they would be able to pay for the DART the same way.

I found a video showing the gatelines (first at 01:25). In the obvious place for a card reader there is the text CONTACTLESS PAYMENTS COMING SOON.

My guess is that the project is still catching up with how much payment preferences have changed since it was originally designed.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I haven't followed all the DART developments in detail, but I do have a simple question...

Is it possible for a non-rail passenger to get from the south-west side of Luton Airport Parkway station - location of the original station entrance building and also the multi-story car park - across the tracks to the newer north-east side entrance in order to access the DART? (The station plans on the DART website seem to back this up.)

I'd think one would need to negotiate the NR barriers at either end of the bridge... unless it's possible to buy a DART ticket in the original station entrance which would allow one to pass through the NR station?

 

[miklcct]

It is a small cost when taken against the cost of flights and accommodation.

Even on a budget you will spend well over £100 on a trip all things taken into consideration. And lots of unexpected things can happen on trips costing you a tenner (and that's typically too low to claim on insurance).

When the total cost of my trip is just £150, £10 extra is already significant.

I'm not after a world ranking, but have (when a bit fitter) gone abroad to run marathons. However I'd still call them holidays!

If you can afford to travel overseas, you can afford £9.80. It's the cost of two pints of beer. But if it really bothers you and fitness is your thing (as it seems it is), just walk. It isn't far and will cost you £0.

Where has a pint become so expensive?

Meanwhile everyone else will pay it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Mar 2023 ==

£4.90 for 2.2 km? How can ANYONE justify paying this, especially when a service bus costs only £1.90?

Yes, I suppose the "Heathrow tax", while more hidden, is comparable.

As a result I no longer use Elizabeth line to the airport after trying it out once in the past. Now I use the tube and avoid Zone 1, unless I have intention to cap my Oyster card on that day.

 

[ClivePage]

I haven't followed all the DART developments in detail, but I do have a simple question...

Is it possible for a non-rail passenger to get from the south-west side of Luton Airport Parkway station - location of the original station entrance building and also the multi-story car park - across the tracks to the newer north-east side entrance in order to access the DART? (The station plans on the DART website seem to back this up.)

I'd think one would need to negotiate the NR barriers at either end of the bridge... unless it's possible to buy a DART ticket in the original station entrance which would allow one to pass through the NR station?

That is an interesting question that I'd like to know the answer to too. I suspect if it were possible than too many people would park for the duration of their foreign trip in the Parkway car park and then pay for two shuttle trips. My guess is that would save money overall. And also that the airport authorities really want to prevent people doing that, so they won't allow transit through the station. But that is really a matter for GTR: will they collude with the airport to make it impossible, who knows. Perhaps there will be a Platform Ticket available for Parkway station, allowing transit to the DART station, or indeed to the Kimpton Road entrance.