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Lumo's green image

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Noddy

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This is very nuanced, it is unlikely you are going to Stirling to London/South of England in an electric car let alone 100 people driving that far in an EV, most people would almost certainly on current tech use petrol or hybrid if driving and therefore a diesel train is more environmentally friendly provided enough people are on it.
Having said that, the railways need electrification to ensure that continue being the green option - particularly on local routes as you rightly say if just looking at day to day CO2 emissions the it becomes less attractive on diesel trains, other factors do need to take into account like 100 extra cars an hour om a road with break dust/ tire particles etc. make trains still an attractive opinion and is the only method of transport that moves large numbers of people efficiently and effectively.

What is ‘nuanced’ today won’t be nuanced tomorrow. Don’t start on the brake dust argument-EVs have regenerative braking just like modern trains so this is a tiny fraction of the pollution produced.

It's all well and good comparing rail with EVs if the overwhelming majority of vehicles on the roads were EVs. But they're not. I don't know how a 22x compares, per passenger, with a mid-10s ICE car with 2 passengers - I wouldn't be surprised if it was still worse - but that that would certainly be a fairer comparison.

According to the government data (linked to below) a 2015 car (mid 2010s) was around 122-125g CO2 per km. The diesel 220/221/222s are in the 85-105g CO2 region according to the graph I previously posted. If the car had an occupancy of 2 it would be in the 61-63g CO2 region so less than the train. If the car was at the average occupancy rate of 1.5 it would be in the low 90s, which is more CO2 than a 9 car 222 but less than a 4/5 car 220/221, and likely less than a 5 car 222.

 
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cj_1985

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What is ‘nuanced’ today won’t be nuanced tomorrow. Don’t start on the brake dust argument-EVs have regenerative braking just like modern trains so this is a tiny fraction of the pollution produced.



According to the government data (linked to below) a 2015 car (mid 2010s) was around 122-125g CO2 per km. The diesel 220/221/222s are in the 85-105g CO2 region according to the graph I previously posted. If the car had an occupancy of 2 it would be in the 61-63g CO2 region so less than the train. If the car was at the average occupancy rate of 1.5 it would be in the low 90s, which is more CO2 than a 9 car 222 but less than a 4/5 car 220/221, and likely less than a 5 car 222.

It does seem that you  do have an axe to grind here... be it with lumo, its parent group, or open access... as no matter what viable argument is brought to the table, you poo poo it, as not relevant...

Or maybe this is because you were originally expecting this service to be operated with class 91/93s and mk4s... and now it's class 222... you're another one of those people that has a problem with 22x trains because they replaced HSTs and LHCS.

For God sake, the world moves on
 

Mike Machin

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As a whole, trains are a more environmentally friendly form of transport.
Not compared to buses, coaches and EVs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Diesel traction on the railways is now as outdated and environmentally unacceptable as coal fired steam. It’s time that a commitment to electrify the remaining parts of the network where it makes economic sense is carried out as quickly as possible.

Any parts where it would not make commercial sense to just the expense should be turned over to battery or hydrogen power where possible, or the lines could be closed and the services replaced by road-going EVs.
 
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Noddy

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It does seem that you  do have an axe to grind here... be it with lumo, its parent group, or open access... as no matter what viable argument is brought to the table, you poo poo it, as not relevant...

Or maybe this is because you were originally expecting this service to be operated with class 91/93s and mk4s... and now it's class 222... you're another one of those people that has a problem with 22x trains because they replaced HSTs and LHCS.

For God sake, the world moves on

I’m happy to admit I do have an axe to grind though it’s not against Lumo but rather the industry as a whole (see my earlier link to Network Rail as an example), and those who continue to a best lazily claim stuff like this ‘most people in 2025 accept that public transport, especially InterCity trains, are greener than most other alternatives‘. In this case this statement is fundamentally untrue, yet it’s being repeated ad infinitum without folk actually engaging their brains and looking at the data.
 

Adrian1980uk

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I’m happy to admit I do have an axe to grind though it’s not against Lumo but rather the industry as a whole (see my earlier link to Network Rail as an example), and those who continue to a best lazily claim stuff like this ‘most people in 2025 accept that public transport, especially InterCity trains, are greener than most other alternatives‘. In this case this statement is fundamentally untrue, yet it’s being repeated ad infinitum without folk actually engaging their brains and looking at the data.
A packed train going from a to b however it's powered generally is but that's where there's an issue, it's running anyway and can have 1 or 1000 passengers but it also needs the return journey and that's likely to less full.

As an individual getting a train I'm not contributing to CO2 emissions directly as the train is running empty or full but obviously that's a simplistic view, overall more people on trains is more environmentally friendly than getting a car out.
 

Lewisham2221

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I’m happy to admit I do have an axe to grind though it’s not against Lumo but rather the industry as a whole (see my earlier link to Network Rail as an example), and those who continue to a best lazily claim stuff like this ‘most people in 2025 accept that public transport, especially InterCity trains, are greener than most other alternatives‘. In this case this statement is fundamentally untrue, yet it’s being repeated ad infinitum without folk actually engaging their brains and looking at the data.

I can't easily find anything more recent, but this BBC article from 2019 shows that, on average, UK rail is better per passenger/km than car. It also shows that bus is better than single occupancy car and that coach trumps just about everything for domestic travel.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49349566.amp said:
Image shows a bar graph comparing CO2 emissions per passenger/km for a variety of travel modes; with single occupancy car producing 171g, bus producing 104g, 4 occupant car producing 43g, domestic rail producing 41g and coach producing 27g. For completeness, Eurostar produces just 6g with air at 133g (domestic) and 102g (long haul), but air ranks worse due to the additional effect of other high altitude emissions.
 

Noddy

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A packed train going from a to b however it's powered generally is but that's where there's an issue, it's running anyway and can have 1 or 1000 passengers but it also needs the return journey and that's likely to less full.

As an individual getting a train I'm not contributing to CO2 emissions directly as the train is running empty or full but obviously that's a simplistic view, overall more people on trains is more environmentally friendly than getting a car out.

A) That fundamentally misunderstands how the figures are generated;
B) is about secure as suggesting that one could fill the car with 5 passengers;
C) most importantly though, is it is exactly the point that this train isn’t running, it’s completely new, going to be operated by diesels and, just like with other new proposed train services such as Portishead and Camp Hill, other far more environmentally friendly options exist.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I can't easily find anything more recent, but this BBC article from 2019 shows that, on average, UK rail is better per passenger/km than car. It also shows that bus is better than single occupancy car and that coach trumps just about everything for domestic travel.


Image shows a bar graph comparing CO2 emissions per passenger/km for a variety of travel modes; with single occupancy car producing 171g, bus producing 104g, 4 occupant car producing 43g, domestic rail producing 41g and coach producing 27g. For completeness, Eurostar produces just 6g with air at 133g (domestic) and 102g (long haul), but air ranks worse due to the additional effect of other high altitude emissions.

Again this is taking an average figure across electric and diesel trains. I think everyone agrees that electric trains are one of the most environmentally friendly way to travel. Look at Eurostar, that’s a brilliantly low figure. The problem (and point) is that diesels absolutely are not. It’s also interesting (and worrying) to see the coach figure; that is likely to be almost completely based on ICE coaches. Same with buses. Imagine what those figures would be like if they were electric?
 
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cj_1985

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I’m happy to admit I do have an axe to grind though it’s not against Lumo but rather the industry as a whole (see my earlier link to Network Rail as an example), and those who continue to a best lazily claim stuff like this ‘most people in 2025 accept that public transport, especially InterCity trains, are greener than most other alternatives‘. In this case this statement is fundamentally untrue, yet it’s being repeated ad infinitum without folk actually engaging their brains and looking at the data.
So ofcourse the place to grind that axe is on an enthuiast forum...

If you have an issue with the industry, fine, big deal... but maybe don't attack enthusiasts who do actually see the service/operator/industry as a low carbon/emission alternative to driving, or maybe they don't care about their carbon footprint.

Not everyone is in a position to own low emission diesel vehicles, EVs... or able/willing to make long journeys using their own mode of transport... or maybe they just dont care, and it's just the cheapest option.
 

yorksrob

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Not compared to buses, coaches and EVs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Diesel traction on the railways is now as outdated and environmentally unacceptable as coal fired steam. It’s time that a commitment to electrify the remaining parts of the network where it makes economic sense is carried out as quickly as possible.

Any parts where it would not make commercial sense to just the expense should be turned over to battery or hydrogen power where possible, or the lines could be closed and the services replaced by road-going EVs.

But a large proportion of the railway isn't diesel traction. Much of it is electric, which is following the same decarbonisation curve as the grid.

I do agree with you that diesel traction needs to be replaced. Just not to the extent that I will single out a route, just because it happens to be diesel hauled.
 

Chester1

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But a large proportion of the railway isn't diesel traction. Much of it is electric, which is following the same decarbonisation curve as the grid.

I do agree with you that diesel traction needs to be replaced. Just not to the extent that I will single out a route, just because it happens to be diesel hauled.

And the % of vehicles powered by diesel is dropping. The remaining TfW 197s being prepared for service over the next year will be the last new DMUs. Everything else in the pipe line is pure electric or bi mode.
 

tfw756rider

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And the % of vehicles powered by diesel is dropping. The remaining TfW 197s being prepared for service over the next year will be the last new DMUs. Everything else in the pipe line is pure electric or bi mode.
That's basically what I've been saying over in the 197 thread, but a lot of the responses I got back (nothing against anyone) were like "a follow-on order of them would be OK" (and that's with 200 post-2010 Diesel Multiple Units already in existence in Britain).
 

The Ham

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From another thread, this provides the details of current (as far as I could find) carbon emissions, rail is from the annual carbon emissions report and isn't just electric trains but the combined average:

Whilst we should be doing more electrification as a network the per passenger km rate is 31g of CO2, because a lot of passengers are using electric trains (chiefly DMU's are rarely over 4 coaches long when in service, when that's almost the minimum for EMU's).

A car with emissions of 100g/km would need 4 people to match that, however cars average 1.5 (although the average is 167g/km)

An EV has emissions of 46g per km (2025), so only just edge rail if they maintain an average of 1.5 people per km traveled.

Emissions per km for cars from here:

The other factor is, whilst people do use diesel only trains is also not uncommon for rail passengers to also use electric trains (as well as walk/cycle) so as an individual rail users are more likely to have a lower carbon footprint than those who own a car.

Especially given it's not uncommon to see people driving distances where the time saving is very limited (if not actually slower on a door to door basis, rather than engine on to engine off basis).

There are still some fairly easy wins for rail to deliver. For example XC could stay the transition to a bimodal fleet (I've previously suggested 12 nine coach 80x's whilst converting their current 22x fleet to being 43 six coaches, as that would get a big uplift in capacity without scraping too many 22x coaches or increasing the number of units on lease by very much), even if the 22x's are used as longer trains the emissions per passenger (assuming passenger growth, which was 15% last year and 18% the year before) is likely to reduce, as the emissions to run a service as 4+4 is less than two separate 4 coach units.

It's also worth noting that a 6 coach 22x units would have something like 332 seats vs 400 seats for a 4+4 train, even though there's 2 coaches fewer.

By having 6 coaches you could even reduce the fuel burn by (if suitable) removing the engines from one of the 6 coaches (a more expensive option would be to replace with batteries, however that would reduce fuel burn further), although at the very least it would allow engines to run a bit less hard.

However, that gives XC their first bimodal units (even if it's a fairly small percentage of their fleet), which could then allow then to be scaled up as time moves forwards. The cost of reforming the 22x's would be fairly limited and so wouldn't be too wasteful if they were then started to be withdrawn from service in (say) 8 years time to allow more bimodal trains to enter service.

8 years would be 2033 and so people can still buy plug in hybrids but not pure petrol/diesel cars and whilst new cars maybe mostly electric, there's still going to be a lot of petrol/diesel burn as part of the car fleet.

Whilst XC is only a small amount of the DMU fleet, as they are high speed and often with low numbers of seats per train (and certainly a low number of seats per coach) any reduction from them maybe enough to have an impact on the per passenger emissions at a national level.

The carbon emissions for rail is low enough that an EV has to always have an average of 1.5 people using it per km to match the passenger emissions per km of rail (which is for the network as a while includes diesel and is 31g/km).

Yes there's some TOC's which need to do better, those who exceed the rate for one passenger in an EV (43g/km, 2025 data) are:
TfW rail 85g/km
ScotRail 60g/km
XC 59g/km
EMR 54g/km
Northern 54g/km
TPE 47g/km
Grand Central 43g/km

Chiltern and GWR (both 40g/km) as does Caledonian Sleeper (37g/km) need to improve a bit to stay ahead of EV's.

Otherwise the rest (all 33g/km or lower) do need to make some improvements to aid the reduction, but are less critical.

TfW Rail is the biggest issue, mostly rural lines with limited scope for growth and a lot of fairly lightly used lines which makes more electrification less likely.

ScotRail could see further improvements if Scotland carries on with more electrification.

XC we've covered, needs longer trains and a couple of bimodal trains as a start for the longer distance services, and something done with their non 22x fleet.

EMR is due to get bimodals, so that will help, but probably need something for their local fleet too.

Northern needs more electrification and battery trains.

TPE is getting more electrification which will help, could also do with getting replacements for their 185's.

Grand Central are due to get bimodals which will help.

Chiltern and GWR could do with some batteries in their trains (like a Hybrid) to improve things, even if they aren't bimodal in the short term.

Caledonian Sleeper is more tricky until there's bimodal locos for the Northern legs (or electrification allows a change to where the locos can swap over).

For example, an A320neo is quoted as 89.9 grams per MILE, which is roughly 54 grams per kilometre. I actually thought they were about the same so I am quite shocked by this; if these references are correct this is a very strong reason Lumo should not be allowed to start this service and all 22x should be scrapped ASAP.

XC's emissions are 59g per passenger km, so a figure of 54g per passenger km for flying isn't much different.

Hub-to-door by public transport is fine in urban areas, but living in an area without any public transport whatsoever it's not a realistic proposition for many people. With ALL land-based public transport combined, buses, coaches, trains and trams accounting for just 8% of journeys in the UK, the personal EV will definitely be a major contributor to meeting the nation's transport needs going forward.

Whilst rail accounts for 2% of trips, it accounts for 10% of miles.

I'd also suggest that those using public transport are also likely more likely to walk/cycle and so have a lower per km emission when you look at what they do for all their travel.

For example, if I were to drive to work (dropping kids off on the way) in an EV my daily per person per km emissions would be 46g/km by walking it's almost zero (a lot of my emissions when walking are the same as when I'm at rest/driving a car).

That's before you consider the construction emissions for us to need to own a second car.

The door to door time (not only counting the car on to car off time) is hardly any different for walking (even if I were to travel when no other parents are getting in the way). It's not uncommon to be passed by cars from our estate only to walk past them as they are unloading near the school gate and then that's because they started loading the car before we left the house!
 

Invincible

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Sorry if this has already been mentioned somewhere but as we know lumo are getting class 222's for the Stirling service. This is interesting as lumo brands themselves as a green operator so I wonder what there plan is now
Think Lumo/ First Group may be referring to the new Hitachi order, which is "green" in that they will include batteries and bi-mode operation to reduce the use of diesel?
 

Noddy

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An EV has emissions of 46g per km (2025), so only just edge rail if they maintain an average of 1.5 people per km traveled.

The important point about this is that every year that passes the EV (car/bus/coach/lorry) emissions figure will continue to fall (fairly rapidly) as the grid decarbonises (and at the same time the number of EVs on the road will rise rapidly). Dogger Bank is due to start operation later this year for example and that alone will knock potentially another 5% off the CO2 per passenger km. Electric trains will follow the exactly the same profile as the grid decarbonises but diesel trains won’t, no matter how much biodiesel they try to use. If the railway industry continues to report a combined figure that includes both diesel and electric trains the gulf between electric road transportation and the railway will widen, and the railway simply won’t be able to claim to be one of the most environmentally friendly options (which it has done for decades). However, if reporting properly separates the electric and diesel figures, electric trains will remain the most environmentally friendly way to travel, and the need for electrification of diesel lines becomes more pressing in the public (and under public pressure) the politicians minds.

Going back to Lumo and open access operators, I have absolutely no issues with their existence (in fact I think they offer great services and have forced franchises to be better) but I do think that all new open access operations going forward should be entirely electric (overhead and/or battery) with no if/buts/maybe.
 
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The Ham

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The important point about this is that every year that passes the EV (car/bus/coach/lorry) emissions figure will continue to fall (fairly rapidly) as the grid decarbonises (and at the same time the number of EVs on the road will rise rapidly). Dogger Bank is due to start operation later this year for example and that alone will knock potentially another 5% off the CO2 per passenger km. Electric trains will follow the exactly the same profile as the grid decarbonises but diesel trains won’t, no matter how much biodiesel they try to use. If the railway industry continues to use a combined figure that includes both diesel and electric trains the gulf between electric road transportation and the railway will widen, and the railway simply won’t be able to claim to be one of the most environmentally friendly options (which it has done for decades). However, if reporting properly separates the electric and diesel figures, electric trains will remain the most environmentally friendly way to travel, and the need for electrification of diesel lines becomes more pressing in the public (and under public pressure) the politicians minds.

Going back to Lumo and open access operators, I have absolutely no issues with their existence (in fact I think they offer great services and have forced franchises to be better) but I do think that all new open access operations going forward should be entirely electric (overhead and/or battery) with no if/buts/maybe.

Indeed, although rail is still delivering improvements by the removal/reduction in the amount of diesel needed.

Do we need to do more electrification/battery trains yes, however also the other thing is increasing the numbers using trains, as the per passenger km rate falls the more people are on a train and whilst that is also true for cars it's a lot harder to increase car occupancy rates (especially with a reduction in household sizes, so the likelihood of a car having 3+ people in it has fallen over time).
 

Noddy

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however also the other thing is increasing the numbers using trains, as the per passenger km rate falls the more people are on a train and whilst that is also true for cars it's a lot harder to increase car occupancy rates (especially with a reduction in household sizes, so the likelihood of a car having 3+ people in it has fallen over time).

Entirely true but what will outpace what?! We know the grid is going to decarbonise because there are vast number of renewables in the planning pipeline which will be online within the next 10 years. It’s ok saying that you just need to increase passengers numbers (and I believe and hope they will) but this is limited by how many passengers you can physically carry on trains. XC for example are one of the worst CO2 offenders, but many of their existing trains are already at capacity, and while they could (and should) introduce bimodes are we expecting to see that within the next 10 years? We are also repeatedly told that XCs principle routes (South Coast/South west-Birmingham-Yorkshire) are decades away from full electrification. Ditto for the likes of Chiltern and important commuter lines in places like Bristol/Birmingham/Yorkshire. Will MML get to Sheffield in the next 10 years? I really really hope it does but I wouldn’t put any money on it.

My worry is that the railway industry and community is asleep to this issue and one day in the not to distant future they will wake up to some really bad PR around it, with no immediate plan on how to solve it.
 

Invincible

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We are also repeatedly told that XCs principle routes (South Coast/South west-Birmingham-Yorkshire) are decades away from full electrification. Ditto for the likes of Chiltern and important commuter lines in places like Bristol/Birmingham/Yorkshire. Will MML get to Sheffield in the next 10 years? I really really hope it does but I wouldn’t put any money on it.
However from the fast charge battery class 230 tests in Ealing, fast charge points along lines at some stations where a top up charge will take 3 minutes may now be more cost effective to roll out than high voltage overhead electric lines.
 

edwin_m

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However from the fast charge battery class 230 tests in Ealing, fast charge points along lines at some stations where a top up charge will take 3 minutes may now be more cost effective to roll out than high voltage overhead electric lines.
3min is longer than most dwell times, and doing this repeatedly during a journey will have a noticeable effect on end to end journey times. It also makes the slow trains slower, which may have a noticeable effect on capacity on a route that also operates fast trains. It may work on some routes but not on others.
 

Chester1

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That's basically what I've been saying over in the 197 thread, but a lot of the responses I got back (nothing against anyone) were like "a follow-on order of them would be OK" (and that's with 200 post-2010 Diesel Multiple Units already in existence in Britain).

That will never happen. We are in a stage of energy transition were new diesel only stock cannot be built but we need to use what we have until its life expired. I have no problem with Lumo using 222s for the Stirling service. They are keen to use electric or bi modes when possible and have placed the largest ever open access order for new stock in the UK. They are likely not doing it for WCML because they don't have the time to wait and the track rights are too short for a ROSCO to agree to buy new units. There is huge uncertainty around introduction of HS2 services that make a 10 year deal a bad idea. They can get the service running, get more people onto trains and then assess track rights and rolling stock situation.
 

Bletchleyite

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Lumo seems to inspire an irrational dislike. There are no 125 mph EMUs or bi modes coming off lease soon, their rights only last 5 years and there is insufficient electricity supply on the northern section of the WCML. Starting the service with diesel trains and ordering new EMUs as part of the first extension contract makes sense.

To be fair I dislike all the OAOs except Hull for wasting paths with short trains and shoddy service in disruption as well as a primarily abstractive approach. However the idea of running the most polluting trains the UK has ever known (twice the CO2 of an aircraft per seat) under the wires on a service that is just not necessary is just ridiculous and should not be permitted. They can do it with EMUs if they must but it should not start until they have them.
 
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