Lumo running train with no toilets

[riceuten]

Long distance coach travel in Croatia and the Balkans seemed to dictate a toilet stop a maximum of 2 hours from the last. This also functioned as a fag break for a nation of chain smokers. I think that's as long as I could bear on a toilet less train.

 

[Djgr]

Perhaps they should rename themselves Luno?

 

[dk1]

Perhaps they should rename themselves Luno?

That comment has done the rounds many many times across social media in the last few days.

 

[Western Gaffer]

That comment has done the rounds many many times across social media in the last few days.

...and the joke's been featured on this thread too:

Lumo running train with no toilets

For those that missed it in the clamour to post criticism, extra toilet stops were planned and allowed. It was mentioned in the news article. So no different to when the likes of LNER and LNWR do it.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[The exile]

Guessing something went wrong with the CET tanking at Ferme Park last night.

Pretty disgraceful from First but to be expected from OA operators who don't have any fleet flexibility.

A case of damned either way, though; if they'd cancelled the train due to no toilets and ran it ECS everyone would be complaining about that too.

What they should have done was have someone at each boarding station handing out replacement anytime tickets to all passengers - but that would be putting the interests of customers before the convenience of senior operating staff, and we can’t have that, can we?

 

[dk1]

What they should have done was have someone at each boarding station handing out replacement anytime tickets to all passengers - but that would be putting the interests of customers before the convenience of senior operating staff, and we can’t have that, can we?

Do they have staff at any let alone all calling points? Why not simply get the on-train staff to do it?

 

[The exile]

Do they have staff at any let alone all calling points? Why not simply get the on-train staff to do it?

They have directors and senior managers who have made operating decisions. In the absence of anyone else, they can get off their backsides and put the customer first.

 

[dk1]

They have directors and senior managers who have made operating decisions. In the absence of anyone else, they can get off their backsides and put the customer first.

That’s just not going to happen on a route of over 400 miles though is it?

 

[Masbroughlad]

Precisely. I can't believe that some people are defending train operating companies choosing to operate long-distance trains without toilet facilities.

Back to my earlier thoughts about Yeowart's Aliiance Rail - spacious intercity service - first and standard class, luggage space, restaurant and catering offers..... That was the promise for Stirling to Euston.

 

[a_c_skinner]

That this discussion is happening at all shows that rail lacks a sufficient ethos of customer service. No buffer (sorry) of a slight excess of rolling stock for breakdowns, actually the opposite as the buffer is often shortforming. Full and standing seems to be accepted as normal, new trains are introduced without protptyping (recall the Deltic and HST prototypes before service) and some simply don't work properly. It isn't so much that all this happens it is that it is accepted as acceptable. I do know it would cost money but if it isn't all about the passengers you get into these messes.

 

[The exile]

That’s just not going to happen on a route of over 400 miles though is it?

No - of course it isn’t because the people affected are only passengers and as long as those directors continue to collect their fat pay cheques and bonuses why should they care?

 

[dk1]

No - of course it isn’t because the people affected are only passengers and as long as those directors continue to collect their fat pay cheques and bonuses why should they care?

With respect you just come across as having a rant. Have you been caught (short) with the recent problems?

 

[Brightonboy]

Let's not forget that the toilets are not just used by both sexes for lavatorial purposes, women also need them for changing period products and they are also used for changing nappies on babies (and toddlers). If the toilets are locked out of use, do you want a nappy changed on the table in front of you where you may later want to eat your sandwiches?

I don't have a problem with the train being run, BUT every passenger should have been advised before boarding and offered the choice of a partial refund or alternative travel arrangements.

 

[D1537]

I'm sorry, but anyone defending the fact that Lumo have repeatedly done this is basically saying that it's absolutely fine to effectively bar people with various disabilities and/or medical conditions from their trains. Yes, I see the posts with "I was once on an GWR/XC/LNER/LNWR/Avanti/whatever train that had no toilets" but they are pretty much very rare issues.

Now, since Lumo appear to have gained a 5th unit this week and therefore aren't trying to run a service on 100% availability of trains (which basically has been the problem), hopefully we won't have this issue again. But if it continues to happen, they really need to start gaining acceptance on Avanti, because the Equality Act 2010 doesn't exist for no reason and the ORR might well get interested as well.

 

[Retorus]

I thought the long stop at Preston was because of a crew change and to allow an Avanti service to pass by (though maybe that's only in the Up direction) since the ORR didn't want the contracted operator to have it's services held up by the slower trains. I didn't think it was about giving passengers long toilet breaks. Does Lumo not hang about when travelling to Stirling like it does travelling to London?

It was a longer stop on this run because of the toilet issue.

 

[Brightonboy]

I'm sorry, but anyone defending the fact that Lumo have repeatedly done this is basically saying that it's absolutely fine to effectively bar people with various disabilities and/or medical conditions from their trains. Yes, I see the posts with "I was once on an GWR/XC/LNER/LNWR/Avanti/whatever train that had no toilets" but they are pretty much very rare issues.

Now, since Lumo appear to have gained a 5th unit this week and therefore aren't trying to run a service on 100% availability of trains (which basically has been the problem), hopefully we won't have this issue again. But if it continues to happen, they really need to start gaining acceptance on Avanti, because the Equality Act 2010 doesn't exist for no reason and the ORR might well get interested as well.

I would have thought there was a Trading Standards angle to this as well. Lumo may not advertise their trains as having toilets but the "reasonable man on the Clapham omnibus" would reasonably expect that in 2026 on a long distance journey that toilets would be provided as part of the service offering and if they are not provided (on a regular basis) then Lumo are failing to provide a reasonable quality of service.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would have thought there was a Trading Standards angle to this as well. Lumo may not advertise their trains as having toilets but the "reasonable man on the Clapham omnibus" would reasonably expect that in 2026 on a long distance journey that toilets would be provided as part of the service offering and if they are not provided (on a regular basis) then Lumo are failing to provide a reasonable quality of service.

Trading Standards wouldn't act against train companies, who have a government regulator.

 

[Dr Hoo]

We have been advised that ‘Hitachi’ have the contract to perform the CET and tanking work; at Ferme Park apparently. Can anyone confirm whether they have any capability or contractual requirement to at least attempt to rectify any faults?
(Or is it a case of ‘if it arrives at Euston in the evening with toilet issues, it will just have to go back to Scotland in that state’?)

 

[GordonT]

Yes, I see the posts with "I was once on an GWR/XC/LNER/LNWR/Avanti/whatever train that had no toilets" but they are pretty much very rare issues.

And a vastly smaller percentage of toiletless trains against total trains in service when compared to Lumo whose managers, let's face it, are overseeing a relatively minuscule operation.

 

[riceuten]

Some stuffed shirt in Lumo senior management will be being paid a bonus for "keeping the trains running" during this debacle

 

[D1537]

We have been advised that ‘Hitachi’ have the contract to perform the CET and tanking work; at Ferme Park apparently. Can anyone confirm whether they have any capability or contractual requirement to at least attempt to rectify any faults?
(Or is it a case of ‘if it arrives at Euston in the evening with toilet issues, it will just have to go back to Scotland in that state’?)

Only one of Lumo's four diagrams ends the night at Ferme Park (and that one spends less than 5 hours there). One ends at Crewe and the other two at Polmadie.

 

[800001]

We have been advised that ‘Hitachi’ have the contract to perform the CET and tanking work; at Ferme Park apparently. Can anyone confirm whether they have any capability or contractual requirement to at least attempt to rectify any faults?
(Or is it a case of ‘if it arrives at Euston in the evening with toilet issues, it will just have to go back to Scotland in that state’?)

Ferme Park is literally a fuelling/CET and stabling point.
No work to fix any faults will be undertaken there.

Also, 141 posts and all we know is what Lumo tweeted.

We do not know what/if anything was announced at Euston over the station tannoy, or on board the train by the on board team prior to departure.

No one on here knows what (if any) alternatives were offered to customers who were not happy about no toilets on the train.

For all we know, customers may of been offered alternative travel on Avanti, or even from Kings Cross on the east coast services.

From last experience Lumo are her really very good at arranged ticket acceptance with other TOCs.

The service delivery director for the east coast services is extremely customer service focussed and knowing her personally she has a very good network of contacts at other TOCs.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Not just Lumo here, as others have pointed out, but the use of 'fault with the toilets' is unlikely to be true, the toilets are likely to be working as designed i.e. lock out of use when full - the alternative would be extremely unpleasant!

Its extremely poor that Lumo sent a Train out without it being emptied as it appears to be a morning departure from the depot.

Out of interest, does anyone know how long it takes to empty the tanks and fill the water?

 

[MontyP]

So if the toilet on a unit which only has one is unavailable it should be withdrawn from service, and if there is no replacement, every train on the rest of that day's diagram should be cancelled?

Yes, if it is a 4+ hour long distance service. I've never heard of a flight over such a time period taking place without a working toilet.

 

[WelshBluebird]

In terms of flights if there aren't enough working toilets then the aircraft isnt fit to fly. If it happens in midair then it will depend exactly where but a diversion to a nearby airport / a return to the departure airport is likely.

 

[Trackman]

Its extremely poor that Lumo sent a Train out without it being emptied as it appears to be a morning departure from the depot.

Out of interest, does anyone know how long it takes to empty the tanks and fill the water?

Without going through the whole thread, I thought it was a technical fault rather than tank emptying/ refilling water issue.

 

[Falcon1200]

if it is a 4+ hour long distance service.

That condition was not in your earlier Post #102!

But I agree, running trains which should have toilets without one is poor, and on long-distance services absolutely awful, for everyone, but rather than cancelling the train and inconveniencing every single passenger planning to use it, advertise the lack of toilets and offer people alternative trains at no additional cost, with Delay Repay if appropriate.

 

[Wolfie]

When I go to festivals I always take an empty Lenor bottle for that urgent 4am need to visit the toilet when it's raining outside the tent. I'd recommend such a measure for Lumo passengers!

While l agree you do need to find somewhere private to use said bottle (and the toilets are doubtless locked)... and God forbid that you need to move your bowels....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2026 ==

Maybe we could fit every train with a last resort "toilet", a cubical that has a hole in the floor directly leading to waste going onto the track, like what they do in India (or at least did while I was there 10 years ago).

Then expect problems, for understandable reasons, from the TUs who, unsurprisingly, don't like trackside and maintenance workers being literally coated in excrement etc.

 

[Coleridge]

That condition was not in your earlier Post #102!

I don't think that was a "condition" as such, but rather a description of the affected Lumo service.

 

[Wolfie]

I've been laughing my head off at some of the over-the-top comments on this thread. It's at times like this where this forum almost becomes a parody of itself with a level of foaming at the mouth outrage that wouldn't be out of place in the Daily Mail comments section, written by people who probably think that newspaper is the epitome of evil.

I doubt that anyone at Lumo is happy with this situation or the negative publicity it's given them, but to suggest it's somehow an Open Access only issue or that Lumo should be closed down is utter tripe. I've been on XC services without working toilets (as have others) as well as LNER trains with no working air con and where the water tanks are empty. I've been on a flight where all the toilets packed up half way through the journey. These things are less than ideal but they happen. It really isn't a big issue.

Try being older, on diuretics, female after having children or with many other health issues and then say "it really isn't a big issue". Your post highlights exactly the sort of smug "l'm alright Jack" complacency which causes problems. The rail industry and customer care? Hahahahaha.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2026 ==

I get it is a big issue especially for those with health conditions to not have access to a toilet.

But for those saying the train should’ve been cancelled or open access got rid of. If we extend that logic to most other things we’d hardly ever run everything.

I used to guard trains with a single toilet on rural routes where the journey would be 2-3.5 hrs. If the toilet was rendered unserviceable 20 minutes into a journey should those trains be cancelled too? What if it’s the last one of the night. Especially as rural areas aren’t usually hotspots for bus services or the ability to source taxis easily.

I understand this train appears to have started service without a working toilet which makes the option to cancel easier but should cancelling a train really be the go to option if the train is otherwise able to run?

Yes, we could use road transport as an alternative. But what if congestion means people may be forced to hold their bladder longer than usual between services stations. Or if a service station has to close unexpectedly.

I do get that in the 21st century we need to take care of disabled people and provide them the same access as anyone else. But is isn’t really possible to protect them, or anyone else 100% of the time or have a simple “if they can’t, no one can approach”. There will always be something that some individuals cannot do. On a busy train able bodied individuals may not be able to access the only working toilet if aisles are blocked. Again, is cancelling the train the best option?

Some might think so, others who have pressing issues to attend to might prefer it to run.

I took an elderly relative to a medical practice today. It has 3 sites. One has no parking nearby and a steep access. Should I demand it be closed to everyone as my relative can’t use it? It’s still useful to a lot of people.

I’ve been on flights where the seatbelt sign has been illuminated for turbulence for a long time. And even for me who is fortunate enough to be in good health it’s been very uncomfortable. Maybe no one should fly?

The lifts were out of order at a major station the other day. Should it have been closed to everyone until the lift was repaired.

Let’s be clear, Lumo have not done well here. There are big questions over the maintenance and information provision. And the default position should be that where possible trains shouldn’t run without facilities. But the idea that a train should not run and hundreds of people should be piled onto other services because of a lack of a toilet is IMO a bit of a stretch just as closing any facility because its ability to service some of its customers is compromised.

Where would we end it? A supermarket sells out of gluten free bread so closes until the next delivery?

Edit: This isn’t a pop at the more reasonable suggestions here. Arranging ticket acceptance for those who want for example. If people pay for a service expecting a toilet as part of it then that to me is completely fair. But those calling for Lumo to be stopped running. You’d have to call for probably all franchised TOCs to do the same.

As for toilet stops as some asked upthread. Whenever I’ve done it we’ve usually called the signaller either via control or directly to be routed to a platform with a toilet. And usually after some time staff would check the toilets in case anyone was still using them. If not then everyone on the platform would be told to reboard if travelling.

In rural areas late at night with trains of mainly drunks, I’ve seen it where people hide in bushes or whatever.

Anyone who’d left the station for a cigarette or to go to a shop is really doing something they wouldn’t have had chance to if the journey was running normally so may be left behind.

That's balanced and realistic, TY

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Aug 2026 ==

I mean all of this should be a moot point. Yes dealing with the situation when it happens has its complexities. But surely the core problem is that its got toc this point? If you have one toilet on a small unit then yeah fair enough but on a train with 5 toilets and them all failing - thats beyond abysmal.

As for when it does happen. Give passengers the choice. Travel on the service but add toilet stops, offer alternative transport, get ticket acceptance on other services or dont travel and get a full refund.

Maybe not for you no. But for lots people it absolutely is.

I really need a like button.