Lumo Revenue Enforcement on Strike Day

[SussexSeagull]

Well, look at it from Lumo's point of view; the OP hadn't paid them anything to be on their train, so he wasn't really a customer.

Yes but the concept of open operators with different ticketing isn't that widely understood yet.

 

[Haywain]

Yes but the concept of open operators with different ticketing isn't that widely understood yet.

That doesn't mean Lumo should let people travel for nothing.

 

[SussexSeagull]

That doesn't mean Lumo should let people travel for nothing.

Legally, absolutely. However it looks terrible to causal users of trains who it will encourage to stick to their cars, planes or coaches.

But hopefully all involved at Lumo enjoy their pyrrhic victory.

 

[AlterEgo]

Legally, absolutely. However it looks terrible to causal users of trains who it will encourage to stick to their cars, planes or coaches.

But hopefully all involved at Lumo enjoy their pyrrhic victory.

Lumo will do just fine - they're different, very cheap and have attracted custom both from Megabus (only a bit more expensive, 2x as fast and 3x as comfortable) and the airlines.

 

[PG]

Lumo will do just fine - they're different, very cheap and have attracted custom both from Megabus (only a bit more expensive, 2x as fast and 3x as comfortable) and the airlines.

OT but couldn't resist...
Perhaps Lumo should advise the jet-setting Rishi Sunak of their services and how ordinary people are switching from planes to trains

 

[furlong]

My guess is that in the final analysis Lumo was obliged to carry such LNER passengers without receiving any compensation for doing so, but that depends on some assumptions not in the public domain and several legal matters which could conceivably be decided either way, and so if I'd been in that position I wouldn't have been confident enough to board the train and would have put the case to LNER who might have decided to buy Lumo tickets or agreed to refund passengers who bought them to avoid getting caught up in a dispute between the two businesses. (Not unlike Grand Central previously buying LNER tickets for its passengers, so LNER would be very familiar with the concept.) I think it would be difficult to argue that the passengers were not entitled to use the Lumo train but the issue is whether or not new tickets had to be issued first. But IMHO if Lumo believed that to be the case, the company should have left the passengers out of the dispute and invoiced LNER for their fares.

 

[AdamWW]

Yes but the concept of open operators with different ticketing isn't that widely understood yet.

Surely it would have been just the same if the train had been, say, Cross Country instead of Lumo?

(Though the staff may have reacted differently, of course).

 

[Haywain]

My guess is that in the final analysis Lumo was obliged to carry such LNER passengers without receiving any compensation for doing so, but that depends on some assumptions not in the public domain and several legal matters which could conceivably be decided either way, and so if I'd been in that position I wouldn't have been confident enough to board the train and would have put the case to LNER who might have decided to buy Lumo tickets or agreed to refund passengers who bought them to avoid getting caught up in a dispute between the two businesses. (Not unlike Grand Central previously buying LNER tickets for its passengers, so LNER would be very familiar with the concept.) I think it would be difficult to argue that the passengers were not entitled to use the Lumo train but the issue is whether or not new tickets had to be issued first. But IMHO if Lumo believed that to be the case, the company should have left the passengers out of the dispute and invoiced LNER for their fares.

LNER might have been obliged to reroute their ticket holders but that is very different to Lumo being obliged to carry them without payment.

 

[Meole]

Don't LNER carry LUMO when it has cancellations ?

 

[Haywain]

Don't LNER carry LUMO when it has cancellations ?

Not generally. Lumo tend to send their passengers to use Avanti services.

 

[357]

I've never been on a Lumo train where the guard didn't announce at every single station before departure that various types of ticket aren't valid.

 

[38Cto15E]

This thread just shows how confusing Rail ticketing is in the UK, even very knowledgable Railforums members have different views when a problem arises, such as strike, weather derailment etc.
Maybe LNER should print on their tickets only valid on the red and white trains and not the Blue ones. Likewise, Lumo should print, only valid on the Blue trains.

 

[AlterEgo]

Maybe LNER should print on their tickets only valid on the red and white trains and not the Blue ones. Likewise, Lumo should print, only valid on the Blue trains.

TPE's trains are blue!

 

[Haywain]

TPE's trains are blue!

As are Hull Trains.

 

[Martin66]

I've never been on a Lumo train where the guard didn't announce at every single station before departure that various types of ticket aren't valid.

Do Lumo have guards?

 

[Deerfold]

This thread just shows how confusing Rail ticketing is in the UK, even very knowledgable Railforums members have different views when a problem arises, such as strike, weather derailment etc.
Maybe LNER should print on their tickets only valid on the red and white trains and not the Blue ones. Likewise, Lumo should print, only valid on the Blue trains.

Except that not all LNER trains are red and white all the time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2023 ==

Do Lumo have guards?

They have ticket checkers.

 

[zero]

They have ticket checkers.

Aren't they called Customer Ambassadors or something silly like that

 

[Watershed]

Do Lumo have guards?

They have "Customer Experience Ambassadors". I suppose at least it's not quite as ridiculous a job title as their "Customer Drivers"

The driver controls the doors and so their services are DOO as far as the Rulebook is concerned, but all services are rostered to have at least two Ambassadors onboard IIRC, though they can run with just one.

 

[Western Sunset]

What if someone is colour blind?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What if someone is colour blind?

Creak, creak, creak, is that the RUK Standard Minority being wheeled out?

They can read the words LNER or Lumo written on the side of the train. Or they can ask someone.

 

[185143]

Creak, creak, creak, is that the RUK Standard Minority being wheeled out?

They can read the words LNER or Lumo written on the side of the train. Or they can ask someone.

But what if the hypothetical passenger is also a mute dyslexic?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Except that not all LNER trains are red and white all the time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2023 ==


They have ticket checkers.

The MkIVs in particular

 

[SussexSeagull]

Surely it would have been just the same if the train had been, say, Cross Country instead of Lumo?

(Though the staff may have reacted differently, of course).

Frankly I think it would be the same to a lot of people, especially on a strike day.

Intercepting someone on their return home is next level though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Feb 2023 ==

I did hear a story that someone brought a ticket for a Southern train from Brighton to London, saw a train with Southern livery on it and duly got on. The guard came round and told him his ticket was invalid because the train was actually a Thameslink service on a train on loan from Southern.

 

[skyhigh]

Intercepting someone on their return home is next level though.

Who got intercepted on their return journey?

 

[Dai Corner]

Who got intercepted on their return journey?

The OP gave their location as an SO22 postcode (Winchester) so it's a reasonable assumption that they live in or near that city and were on their way home from Newcastle.

 

[nw1]

The RPIs ordered an unscheduled stop simply to eject someone who has an an incorrect ticket following strike disruption?
Unless the OP is omitting a key element from their account, this seems to be a wholly disproportionate course of action.

Indeed, if I was a regular passenger on the train I wouldn't want to be delayed in this fashion. It might only be a 3-min or so delay but even still, that might have made all the difference to making a connection at London. The reason is simply not important enough to delay passengers in this manner which unscheduled stops, unless something much worse (e.g. threatening behaviour) was going on.

The RPI should have just accepted an honest mistake had been made and warned the passenger to carefully check their tickets in future.

By calling the police when the OP did leave the train in Doncaster, the member of staff on the Lumo train has acted wholly inappropriately and I hope that "words are had" with them to not take such an attitude in future.

Would a layperson even be aware that multiple TOCs run this route? Might they think that "Lumo" is just a brand of LNER, used for certain limited-stop services?

 

[Rugose]

I was indeed travelling home to Hampshire from Newcastle when the episode occurred.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2023 ==

On the broader issue of who Lumo's "customers" are: as they, like all rail operators, receive a public subsidy, is it unreasonable to expect in return some cooperation over issues like fares in the event of cancelled trains?

 

[miklcct]

I was indeed travelling home to Hampshire from Newcastle when the episode occurred.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Feb 2023 ==

On the broader issue of who Lumo's "customers" are: as they, like all rail operators, receive a public subsidy, is it unreasonable to expect in return some cooperation over issues like fares in the event of cancelled trains?

Lumo is an open access operator which doesn't receive subsidy. However, as with all operators, they are bound to the National Rail Conditions of Travel with share mutual obligations in case of disruption.

 

[Adam Williams]

On the broader issue of who Lumo's "customers" are: as they, like all rail operators, receive a public subsidy, is it unreasonable to expect in return some cooperation over issues like fares in the event of cancelled trains?

I find the squabbling between LNER and Lumo quite tiresome.

But, is the point you're making entirely true and one applicable to both operators here, given Lumo's status as an Open Access operator? How much public subsidy has Lumo received?

 

[Watershed]

On the broader issue of who Lumo's "customers" are: as they, like all rail operators, receive a public subsidy, is it unreasonable to expect in return some cooperation over issues like fares in the event of cancelled trains?

They don't receive a direct subsidy, being an open access operator - although they pay far less than their fair share in terms of track access charges (they only pay variable per-mile charges, not fixed access charges like the franchises) and thus arguably receive an indirect subsidy.

That doesn't really change the position in any material way though. What ultimately matters is that they are one of the Train Companies under the NRCoT and thus have a legal obligation to assist stranded passengers if they're able to do so - even if those passengers weren't stranded by Lumo and don't hold a ticket that was valid to travel with them.

Furthermore Lumo damage the reputation of the wider rail industry by getting up to these sorts of antics. For better or worse, people see the railway as a collective organisation and so they're hurting their future sales as much as LNER's by refusing to assist here.

They're also even less likely to get ticket acceptance from LNER in future, though they seem to have pretty much given up on even trying to arrange that, instead sending people via a mystery tour of the West Midlands on Avanti when they cancel their services.