Lumo Revenue Enforcement on Strike Day

[ainsworth74]

I may not, but then I know there is a "Route restriction" which I have been advised I must continue to comply with despite the strike.

No you've been advised that there is an "Operator Restriction" which you have to comply with. Where on that ticket does it tell me, someone who is unfamiliar with the railway, what the operator restriction is?

 

[AdamWW]

No you've been advised that there is an "Operator Restriction" which you have to comply with. Where on that ticket does it tell me, someone who is unfamiliar with the railway, what the operator restriction is?

Indeed.

The original email apparently said:
"You do not need to purchase additional tickets to complete your journey.
Take the next available service which matches the route and operator restrictions on your ticket(s)."

So it seems plausible for someone to look at the ticket and see that there's something listed under "route". It may not be clear to them what "Lner plus connectns" is describing but whatever restriction it is shouldn't bar one from taking any other train on the same route as the ticket was issued for. We all know that it means "The operator LNER plus connections from other TOCs" and it's not too hard to guess. But I'd say it's not exactly obvious either so I can see someone missing it.

Now they look for operator restrictions and there's nothing explicitly there.

Of course the email itself isn't binding in any way so Lumo don't have to pay any attention to it.

 

[Wallsendmag]

And writing out LNER as Lner doesn't help clarity.

That's how it comes through in the industry feed.

 

[spag23]

That's how it comes through in the industry feed.

Like the OP, I am not an industry insider. I reckon neither of us knows what "industry feed" means, nor why someone has chosen to change the TOC's (capitalised) branding; clearly to the detriment of customer comprehension.

 

[DanNCL]

By “National Rail Train Split”, is @Rugose referring to nationalrail.com ?

I can see why anyone unfamiliar would think this was National Rail Enquiries. It is in fact however an independent retailer called Chester-le-Track, the same company that previously operated the ticket offices at Chester-le-Street and Eaglescliffe stations.

 

[Class800]

Like the OP, I am not an industry insider. I reckon neither of us knows what "industry feed" means, nor why someone has chosen to change the TOC's (capitalised) branding; clearly to the detriment of customer comprehension.

Capitalisation will depend on the style guide rules of the organisation publishing the information

 

[Haywain]

Capitalisation will depend on the style guide rules of the organisation publishing the information

'Style guide rules'. Very optimistic!

 

[Adam Williams]

By “National Rail Train Split”, is @Rugose referring to nationalrail.com ?

no.

 

[Class800]

'Style guide rules'. Very optimistic!

Maybe. Every day I have to use them in my work

 

[Western Sunset]

Style over substance...

 

[Parham Wood]

I have been travelling by train for 50+ years.

Like many others I've managed to get through that without ever running into issues despite, on two or three occasions, mislaying my ticket.

Going back to the OP, given they were travelling on a strike day (where disruption was likely) it might have been wise on the cancellation of their planned service to have asked a member of staff whether their ticket was valid on the Lumo service prior to boarding.

Agree it may have been wise to ask a member of staff but having seen the number of times on this forum accounts of passengers having been given the wrong advice it is not a hundred percent guarantee of correct advice!! Asking Lumo staff would be less of a risk but that assumes you can locate one before boarding your train.

It is amazing to me that the ticket uses ROUTE instead of Operator or similar. A route to me is Doncaster to Bath via London, so LNER could be taken to mean a route to the unwary. Once again the railways illustrate very poor customer service. I know from above that using the ROUTE field was the best compromise when no field is available and presumably it is not easy to change or add such due to the way the ticketing systems work and legacy equipment involved.

 

[30907]

No you've been advised that there is an "Operator Restriction" which you have to comply with. Where on that ticket does it tell me, someone who is unfamiliar with the railway, what the operator restriction is?

The phrase is " Route and Operator Restriction" - while I suppose "LNER and connections" could be construed to mean "LNER and any other operator on the same route" I don't think it's the natural interpretation.
Anyway, this doesn't really help the OP.

 

[ainsworth74]

The phrase is " Route and Operator Restriction" - while I suppose "LNER and connections" could be construed to mean "LNER and any other operator on the same route" I don't think it's the natural interpretation.

But the ticket just tells me about the route, it doesn't say anything about the operator?

However...

Anyway, this doesn't really help the OP.

That's fair, we'll have to agree to disagree about how clear this is to a novice to the railway

 

[Haywain]

That's fair, we'll have to agree to disagree about how clear this is to a novice to the railway

I might start to question whether someone referring to RDG could be considered a novice to the railway.

 

[nanstallon]

That seems like a massive overreaction to make an additional call on a service just because a passenger holes the wrong ticket and then to do a steak out and wait for them at King's Cross getting off an LNER train

This is so aggressive, it puts people off rail travel. Have the police nothing better to do?

 

[the sniper]

This is so aggressive, it puts people off rail travel. Have the police nothing better to do?

I'm not sure why people are taking that at face value, but I don't frequent this part of the forum that often, this narrative seems to be a thing people are into? It seems more plausible to me that neither the stop at Doncaster or the BTP at Kings Cross were primarily to deal with the OP, if their account is accurate. Unless Lumo are very keen to lose money in dealing with revenue protection.

 

[andythebrave]

I knew about the shuttle - the timetables used to list the aircraft type as "equipment varies" and I did hear a story that they once put Concorde on one of them, though that may have been a bit of a publicity stunt.

I didn't know you paid on board though.

I also read that if they were only a few people left over once the plane was full they weren't terribly keen on finding another plane just for them.

I remember many Concordes on St Andrew's day one year at Glasgow along with other shuttle flights in, I think, 1981 and 1983. The single fare was around £35...

Can I have a time travel bucket list and add one of them?

 

[Cantab26]

New to the Forum, I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience to mine.

Before the announcement of the Wed 1st Feb strike, I'd bought a ticket from National Rail TrainSplit to travel on that day on the 10.27 Newcastle to Kings Cross train. This was cancelled and I'd been informed by National Rail TrainSplit that if I still wanted to travel:

"You do not need to purchase additional tickets to complete your journey.
Take the next available service which matches the route and operator restrictions on your ticket(s)."

As I had to travel, I followed the advice and caught the next train, the 10.55 from Newcastle to Kings Cross. Once on the train I was informed by a ticket inspector that my ticket was not valid as this was a Lumo train and my ticket was issued for a LNER train. I explained that my ticket was bought from National Rail and following my original train's cancellation I assumed I was correctly following the emailed advice. My purchase wasn't from LNER but from National Rail, who sell tickets on behalf of the Rail Delivery Group (which includes LNER and Lumo). I had assumed that if National Rail TrainSplit had been advising me to catch the next train run by the same operator as the cancelled train, then it would have explicitly said so. I couldn't see any "operator restrictions" on my ticket, just the name of the operator.

My apparent innocent mistake in following possibly unclear advice led to me being treated as a fare dodger by Lumo staff. I was told I could pay an additional fare or leave the train at Doncaster, the first opportunity. I left the train at Doncaster and joined the next LNER train to Kings Cross.

However, I was surprised to be met at the Kings Cross ticket barrier by the Lumo inspector and British Transport Police. The Lumo official maintained I owed her company money and I was advised to give her my name and address, which I did.

The whole unpleasant episode disturbs me as the ambiguous advice which I followed and the lack of cooperation between Lumo and LNER has led to me being treated like a petty criminal. On the other hand, when I informed Customer Support at National Rail TrainSplit I received a very prompt and considerate reply, fully appreciating how innocent mistakes could arise following TrainSplit advice in the event of a cancelled train. They even offered to email to that effect, in support, should Lumo proceed any further.

From the forum guidance:

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • The details of any paperwork with which you were issued.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

If you are able to provide the highlighted information then this will no doubt mean you can receive more useful advice on the matter.

 

[Cowley]

From the forum guidance:

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • The details of any paperwork with which you were issued.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

If you are able to provide the highlighted information then this will no doubt mean you can receive more useful advice on the matter.

And on that (as suggested by yourself), we’ll lock this for now until @Rugose gets back to us using the report function.

Thanks everyone

 

[Rugose]

As the initiator of this thread, I appreciate the many helpful comments posted and being given the chance to meet requests for further information.

Was I being rude or aggressive to the Lumo inspectors? Certainly not. I'm a retired teacher and probably look like one. I probably displayed exasperation at the repeated demands for further payment, when I could show I was following advice which seemed to say I didn't need to make an additional payment. Exasperated, but never rude or aggressive.

What happened to the other two passengers who got off at the unscheduled Doncaster stop with me? They were gentlemen of a similar age; I spoke to them, enough to ascertain they were in similar circumstances to myself and hadn't met the demands for an additional fare. They told me some much younger men on the Lumo train had been pressured into making extra payments of "around £40" each. One of the lines the Lumo inspector had taken with me was "Everyone has paid except you". When the following LNER train arrived, we boarded separately and I never saw them again.

My ticket details? There were 3 tickets with the same coach/seat reservation on each of them (Newcastle-Durham; Durham-Doncaster; Doncaster-London Kings Cross). All were shown as "Advance Single" "valid on 01-FBY-23" "Adult Standard Class with Senior Railcard" (I had my Railcard with me). The first ticket specified "On London North Eastern Railway Services 10.27"; the other two tickets showed "On specified LNER trains & connections" with specific subsequent departure times [see attachment].

However, the issue affecting me was the emailed advice which TrainSplit gave. This said that as my specified train had been cancelled:

"You do not need to purchase additional tickets to complete your journey.
Take the next available service which matches the route and operator restrictions on your ticket(s)."

I naively took "operator restrictions" to mean restrictions imposed by the operator. It did not occur to me that it might mean the passenger was restricted to the same operator as the cancelled train (an ambiguity which TrainSplit have acknowledged in a helpful Customer Care reply to me). On 1st Feb, I'd seen online there was a 10.55 from Newcastle after my cancelled train; so I caught it, in line with the advice I'd been given. It happened to be a Lumo train (indeed, I wasn't even sure there were any LNER trains running from Newcastle on the day, because of the strike).

Being stopped by British Transport Police and the Lumo inspector at Kings Cross, after travelling from Doncaster on a LNER train is incredible? Yes it is, as is the whole disturbing saga. But worryingly, it's true.

Thank you for the collective advice of the Forum.

 

[Llanigraham]

Being just a meer (retired) signaller, so having little knowledge of ticketing and it's numerous ramifications, so therfore like a general member of the great unwashed, I would have taken those tickets to mean I could ONLY use LNER trains whatever happened and had no rights to presume I could use someone elses trains. The one thing I would have done if in the OP's situation would have been to ask someone in authority before I made the assumption that I was could do what they did. I have always been told "Never assume, it makes an ass of you and me!"

 

[Watershed]

As the initiator of this thread, I appreciate the many helpful comments posted and being given the chance to meet requests for further information.

Was I being rude or aggressive to the Lumo inspectors? Certainly not. I'm a retired teacher and probably look like one. I probably displayed exasperation at the repeated demands for further payment, when I could show I was following advice which seemed to say I didn't need to make an additional payment. Exasperated, but never rude or aggressive.

What happened to the other two passengers who got off at the unscheduled Doncaster stop with me? They were gentlemen of a similar age; I spoke to them, enough to ascertain they were in similar circumstances to myself and hadn't met the demands for an additional fare. They told me some much younger men on the Lumo train had been pressured into making extra payments of "around £40" each. One of the lines the Lumo inspector had taken with me was "Everyone has paid except you". When the following LNER train arrived, we boarded separately and I never saw them again.

My ticket details? There were 3 tickets with the same coach/seat reservation on each of them (Newcastle-Durham; Durham-Doncaster; Doncaster-London Kings Cross). All were shown as "Advance Single" "valid on 01-FBY-23" "Adult Standard Class with Senior Railcard" (I had my Railcard with me). The first ticket specified "On London North Eastern Railway Services 10.27"; the other two tickets showed "On specified LNER trains & connections" with specific subsequent departure times [see attachment].

However, the issue affecting me was the emailed advice which TrainSplit gave. This said that as my specified train had been cancelled:

"You do not need to purchase additional tickets to complete your journey.
Take the next available service which matches the route and operator restrictions on your ticket(s)."

I naively took "operator restrictions" to mean restrictions imposed by the operator. It did not occur to me that it might mean the passenger was restricted to the same operator as the cancelled train (an ambiguity which TrainSplit have acknowledged in a helpful Customer Care reply to me). On 1st Feb, I'd seen online there was a 10.55 from Newcastle after my cancelled train; so I caught it, in line with the advice I'd been given. It happened to be a Lumo train (indeed, I wasn't even sure there were any LNER trains running from Newcastle on the day, because of the strike).

Being stopped by British Transport Police and the Lumo inspector at Kings Cross, after travelling from Doncaster on a LNER train is incredible? Yes it is, as is the whole disturbing saga. But worryingly, it's true.

Thank you for the collective advice of the Forum.

View attachment 128450

It's rather unfortunate that the first Advance was routed LNER only. It's also unfortunate that you held a combination of tickets that involved splitting at Durham and Doncaster, but then boarded a Lumo service which was scheduled to run non-stop to London.

Had you held just one ticket and had it been routed LNER & Connections, as per the latter two Advances, Lumo would have been incorrect to reject the ticket. As it stands, they were technically correct as there were later LNER services available, meaning you were not stranded and thus could not force Lumo to accept your ticket.

 

[robbeech]

I suspect the only thing to do now is to wait and see what they send to you. You presented A ticket (regardless of validity) so that rules out certain courses of action.

You followed their advice and alighted at Doncaster, this was given to you as an option, so realistically they ought to take no further action based on this. However we will have to wait and see. Do post any further correspondence you receive here for more specific advice (remember to redact any personal details).

 

[Turtle]

I suspect the only thing to do now is to wait and see what they send to you. You presented A ticket (regardless of validity) so that rules out certain courses of action.

You followed their advice and alighted at Doncaster, this was given to you as an option, so realistically they ought to take no further action based on this. However we will have to wait and see. Do post any further correspondence you receive here for more specific advice (remember to redact any personal details).

I think that Rugose's reaction to TrainSplit's advice was in line with what any reasonably educated layman would assume to be the correct course to follow.

 

[SussexSeagull]

I suspect the legal position was that the OP was at fault but I will leave that to better qualified people to advise. However, on a strike day with guidance that doesn't exactly explain the situation to a layman I think it off that common sense isn't being applied here as it does the rail industry no good long term.

 

[Turtle]

I suspect the legal position was that the OP was at fault but I will leave that to better qualified people to advise. However, on a strike day with guidance that doesn't exactly explain the situation to a layman I think it off that common sense isn't being applied here as it does the rail industry no good long term.

Quite. Very bad PR for the railway.

 

[rs101]

I suspect the legal position was that the OP was at fault but I will leave that to better qualified people to advise. However, on a strike day with guidance that doesn't exactly explain the situation to a layman I think it off that common sense isn't being applied here as it does the rail industry no good long term.

Since when have the concepts of good customer service and common sense meant anything to most of the TOCs?

 

[Haywain]

Since when have the concepts of good customer service and common sense meant anything to most of the TOCs?

Well, look at it from Lumo's point of view; the OP hadn't paid them anything to be on their train, so he wasn't really a customer.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Do trainsplit (and similar) websites spell out for passengers the requirements of having split tickets? I would think most people would just think it's saving them money and that's it, no further conditions.

 

[Cantab26]

Do trainsplit (and similar) websites spell out for passengers the requirements of having split tickets? I would think most people would just think it's saving them money and that's it, no further conditions.

Yes, Trainsplit does at some length after you select an itinerary.