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Lumo Revenue Enforcement on Strike Day

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Starmill

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They exercised their right under NRCoT condition 9.4
Are you quite sure about that?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

  1. If your ticket shows a route "LNER and Connections", you will be reserved on to all necessary LNER trains and connecting trains of other companies at the time of booking. Please note that if you take connecting trains other than those shown on your ticket, your ticket won't be valid.
It would be best if you were able to say where you're quoting from, if you are, thank you.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I'm slightly puzzled why Lumo proceeded to question you at Kings Cross if you had gotten off at Doncaster in line with their instructions.
Indeed and I'm very confused about this. Could the OP perhaps clarify where precisely they were stopped and how they were identified?

It seems very unlikely that it would be possible to carry on a dispute in this way at a later time.
 
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alistairlees

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I think what this thread does demonstrate quite well is that things that may appear "obvious" to those who know how the railways work are much less than obvious to other people who don't regularly use the railways. If 'the railway' wants to win new customers then this is something that needs to be addressed, urgently.
 

Watershed

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The customer didn't travel on their itinerary, though. They exercised their right under NRCoT condition 9.4 which is quite explicit about travelling with the originally booked operator.
I don't think NRCoT 9.4 is relevant here; the train wasn't missed due to a late-running connection.
 

WF4HA5HE

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Take the next available service which matches the route and operator restrictions on your ticket(s)."
I think this line covers the retailer from any mistakes from the customer as if you hold a LNER only advanced single at some point im presumably that the website would have given you the option to read the T&Cs of the ticket.


The whole unpleasant episode disturbs me as the ambiguous advice which I followed and the lack of cooperation between Lumo and LNER has led to me being treated like a petty criminal.
I'm not sure if you mean LNER and Lumo should have had ticket acceptance with each other during a strike day but I can't see how there was a lack of cooperation? They are two separate companies which, albeit would be nice if they did, don't have to accept every and all tickets during disruption.
 

johncrossley

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I'm not sure if you mean LNER and Lumo should have had ticket acceptance with each other during a strike day but I can't see how there was a lack of cooperation? They are two separate companies which, albeit would be nice if they did, don't have to accept every and all tickets during disruption.

It is obviously stupid if they don't. It is the kind of thing that puts travellers off the railways.
 

WF4HA5HE

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It is obviously stupid if they don't. It is the kind of thing that puts travellers off the railways
I agree with you it should be in place but I wouldn't just assume and would definitely have checked before hand. Maybe just a quick message on social media or phone call.
 

ainsworth74

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I think this line covers the retailer from any mistakes from the customer as if you hold a LNER only advanced single at some point im presumably that the website would have given you the option to read the T&Cs of the ticket.
It does, you can click a link and be given this information:

Advance tickets are single (one-way) tickets for many longer and some shorter distance journeys, are available in First Class and Standard Class and offer the best available price for each journey.


Tickets must be booked in advance of travel and are subject to availability.


Advance tickets are valid only on the specific booked train but can be changed before departure of the first reserved service.




Break of Journey:​

Outbound: Customers may not start, break and resume, or end their journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

Return: Not applicable. Advance are single tickets only.

Amendments and Refunds:​




Advance tickets are non-refundable.


* * * * * * * * * * * *


Change of Journey/Excess Fare paid



Where an excess fare has been paid up to the price of a walk-up ticket, the excess fare paid varies the terms under which the passenger can travel, but it does not alter the refund terms of the original Advance ticket. If the passenger subsequently asks for a refund on the combination of Advance ticket, Excess Fare paid and any administration fees paid, the Advance ticket and change of journey fee remain non-refundable and a refund is only payable on the difference in fare paid. This may be subject to a refund fee of no more than £10.


If your journey is cancelled or disrupted


If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed by more than 60 minutes, special arrangements will be made to accommodate them on another train (although a seat cannot be guaranteed). If the train you purchased a ticket for is cancelled or delayed, and as a result you decide not to travel, a refund will be offered on completely unused tickets and you will not be charged an administration fee.


There may be rare occasions where a cheaper Advance fare becomes available closer to the time of travel, for example if a group booking is cancelled and extra seats become available. Please note that in these circumstances Advance tickets that have already been bought cannot be refunded in part or in full.






Changes to time or date of travel must be arranged before departure of the first reserved train printed on the ticket, after which the ticket has no value and a new one must be purchased. Customers will need to present the ticket(s) and reservation(s) when they request a change.


Changes to tickets cannot be made on-board the train. If customers board a train without a ticket and reservation for that service, a new ticket must be purchased.


The origin, destination and Train Company or route shown on the ticket(s) must remain the same.


The difference between the price paid and cost of the next suitable fare for the journey is payable. An administration fee of no more than £10 may be charged per ticket for each change to a journey. If customers change to a train on which a cheaper fare is available, the difference will not be refunded.


Please note: Where an Advance ticket has been purchased online and the ticket has either been self-printed at home or downloaded to a mobile device this may alter the rules for changing the ticket. The relevant conditions will be made clear when the ticket is bought.




Restriction GC:​


This restriction applies All days

Outward Travel:​





Valid on London North Eastern Railway (TOC Code: GR) and connecting services.

Seat reservations are compulsory.




Return Travel:​


Not applicable.

Which does, if you wade through a wall of text, tell you in one place that it's valid on LNER and in other than the operator must remain the same.

But I'm not sure it's really fair or reasonable to expect a prospective passenger to read all of that for what should be a fairly straight forward transaction. Especially if their ticket clearly said "Valid on LNER only" on it somewhere...
 

Bletchleyite

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  1. If your ticket shows a route "LNER and Connections", you will be reserved on to all necessary LNER trains and connecting trains of other companies at the time of booking. Please note that if you take connecting trains other than those shown on your ticket, your ticket won't be valid.

Which isn't actually true. Non reservable connections can be taken at any time provided you don't break your journey. Of course Lumo is reservable which gets into awkward territory.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It is obviously stupid if they don't. It is the kind of thing that puts travellers off the railways.

I normally totally agree, but Lumo is a separate private company so that would be a bit like rocking up for a Ryanair flight with an easyJet boarding card.

What I do recall (I think?) is that paper Advances don't show a route at all?
 

Llanigraham

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The RPIs ordered an unscheduled stop simply to eject someone who has an an incorrect ticket following strike disruption?
Unless the OP is omitting a key element from their account, this seems to be a wholly disproportionate course of action.

The OP does state that 2 others were also removed, and we haven't been told the full reason for these ejections, only the OP's version.
 

the sniper

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However, I was surprised to be met at the Kings Cross ticket barrier by the Lumo inspector and British Transport Police. The Lumo official maintained I owed her company money and I was advised to give her my name and address, which I did.

The only way this makes any sense to me, if your account is accurate, is if the train was stopped at Doncaster coincidentally to deal with someone else, who they were then looking for again at Kings Cross. I'm surprised they'd have managed to recognise you, as you'd presumably have been coming off a busy LNER train.
 
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Darandio

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There seems to be an increasing number of threads in this section that are potentially pulling the chain of those replying. This one has the spidey senses tingling again.

Booted off a train at a stop that the train doesn't ordinarily stop at before jumping on another service. Boards another later train and arrives at the destination to find a member of staff (indication is that it's same staff member who was probably needing a break at that point) waiting for them. Please.

All far too strange for me but if i'm wrong i'll happily apologise.
 
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gray1404

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Is there an argument that the OPs ticket was valid on Lumo as it was an & connections ticket?
 

the sniper

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It is obviously stupid if they don't. It is the kind of thing that puts travellers off the railways.

Well it is stupid having the fake economy of these companies (one private, one state) competing against each other, wanting the benefits of capitalism but not the downsides.
 

Starmill

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I normally totally agree, but Lumo is a separate private company so that would be a bit like rocking up for a Ryanair flight with an easyJet boarding card.
It would be nothing like that at all. And we all know that you know that it's nothing like that.

The terms of Lumo's licence to carry passengers have the effect of obliging them to apply the NRCoT. No such obligation nor common conditions exist for Ryanair or EasyJet.
 

AlterEgo

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It would be nothing like that at all. And we all know that you know that it's nothing like that.

The terms of Lumo's licence to carry passengers have the effect of obliging them to apply the NRCoT. No such obligation nor common conditions exist for Ryanair or EasyJet.
But in this case Lumo weren’t obliged to carry the passenger so the argument is moot. The passenger didn’t have a ticket valid on their service, there was no ticket acceptance and the advice was to follow the route and operator restrictions on their ticket.
 

Aaron1

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In fairness to the OP I was on board the 12:23 LNER service from Doncaster to Kings Cross which may have been the train the OP claims they boarded at Doncaster and when I alighted at Kings Cross as I approached the ticket barriers I did spot a female passenger being spoken to by BTP officers, obviously that could have been anybody talking about anything but thought I should mention it.
 

AdamWW

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By reading the Ts&Cs when you buy it?

And yes, I know lots of people don't but that is their problem not the TOC's.

I imagine many in the industry would agree with you but I personally don't think this is a reasonable attitude.

Maybe they should warn you that unlike almost any other transaction you'll make, you're not just reading the terms of a civil contract you're entering into, you're also reading a set of rules that can land you with prosecution if you inadvertently violate them.

Also so far as I know it is still permitted to purchase advance tickets at stations (though that wasn't what happened here), in which case the railway can't even argue that the passenger was forced to tick a box to supposedly agree that they had read through a long set of terms and conditions.

Which isn't actually true. Non reservable connections can be taken at any time provided you don't break your journey. Of course Lumo is reservable which gets into awkward territory.

I was going to say that for non reservable connections, you presumably then wouldn't have a service listed on a ticket, just on an accompanying itinerary. But then on an e-ticket it's all in one file so you presumably would.

It certainly wasn't my understanding that where, say, you're using a service with a 10 minute frequency to connect into a long distance train you have to wait for the exact one you're "booked on" and thus make it more likely you'll miss your connection.

I normally totally agree, but Lumo is a separate private company so that would be a bit like rocking up for a Ryanair flight with an easyJet boarding card.

I would agree with that if it were the case that many of the passengers on the Ryanair flight had boarding cards which were also valid on easyjet, and the wording on the easyjet only cards was a little ambiguous as to what it was valid on.
 

scrapy

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This airline analogy is bonkers anyway.

You are either accepted on an aircraft or not. Once accepted you do not have a ticket check halfway and face a penalty fare, prosecution or being kicked off if your ticket isn't valid. It's totally different.
 

Turtle

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I imagine many in the industry would agree with you but I personally don't think this is a reasonable attitude.

Maybe they should warn you that unlike almost any other transaction you'll make, you're not just reading the terms of a civil contract you're entering into, you're also reading a set of rules that can land you with prosecution if you inadvertently violate them.

Also so far as I know it is still permitted to purchase advance tickets at stations (though that wasn't what happened here), in which case the railway can't even argue that the passenger was forced to tick a box to supposedly agree that they had read through a long set of terms and conditions.



I was going to say that for non reservable connections, you presumably then wouldn't have a service listed on a ticket, just on an accompanying itinerary. But then on an e-ticket it's all in one file so you presumably would.

It certainly wasn't my understanding that where, say, you're using a service with a 10 minute frequency to connect into a long distance train you have to wait for the exact one you're "booked on" and thus make it more likely you'll miss your connection.



I would agree with that if it were the case that many of the passengers on the Ryanair flight had boarding cards which were also valid on easyjet, and the wording on the easyjet only cards was a little ambiguous as to what it was valid on.
Having read this thread with so much advice and analysis from the great and the good, I am beginning to believe that my health problems that now discourage rail travel are a blessing in disguise.
 

AdamWW

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Having read this thread with so much advice and analysis from the great and the good, I am beginning to believe that my health problems that now discourage rail travel are a blessing in disguise.

As they used to say at the end of Crimewatch, "Don't have nightmares".
The chances of actually getting into trouble so long as you aren't deliberately fare evading are quite small, I think.

While I personally think they should be smaller than they are, I don't think the current situation ought to put people off traveling by rail.

This airline analogy is bonkers anyway.

You are either accepted on an aircraft or not. Once accepted you do not have a ticket check halfway and face a penalty fare, prosecution or being kicked off if your ticket isn't valid. It's totally different.

Digressing slightly, I did read that many years ago there was an air shuttle service in the US where you just got on and took a seat.

After take-off the crew came round checking tickets and selling them to anyone who didn't already have one.

I suspect they didn't carry parachutes to drop off anyone refusing to pay though.
 

glasgowniteowl

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The RPIs ordered an unscheduled stop simply to eject someone who has an an incorrect ticket following strike disruption?

Unless the OP is omitting a key element from their account, this seems to be a wholly disproportionate course of action.

The OP may not be aware of the "key element" so to speak, may have been the other passengers who had caused the issue and OP was chucked off at same time again with btp waiting at King's Cross again could be for the other passengers and the OP was just an added unfortunate opportunity
 

6Gman

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As they used to say at the end of Crimewatch, "Don't have nightmares".
The chances of actually getting into trouble so long as you aren't deliberately fare evading are quite small, I think.
I have been travelling by train for 50+ years.

Like many others I've managed to get through that without ever running into issues despite, on two or three occasions, mislaying my ticket.

Going back to the OP, given they were travelling on a strike day (where disruption was likely) it might have been wise on the cancellation of their planned service to have asked a member of staff whether their ticket was valid on the Lumo service prior to boarding.
 

AdamWW

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I may not, but then I know there is a "Route restriction" which I have been advised I must continue to comply with despite the strike.

I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for someone unfamiliar with the railways to think that "Route" means just that, and not: "Route, operator, or perhaps both", and that the writing there somehow describes the physical route.

And writing out LNER as Lner doesn't help clarity.

I realise that when operator restrictions came in probably sticking them in the "route" field was the only option, but I do wonder if since then any opportunities have been missed as ticketing systems were upgraded to add a separate operator field.
 
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