LUL Speeds?

[Kentish Paul]

Which lines have the fastest speeds?

I seem to remember that the outer reaches of the MET were fast and the Piccadilly was fast from Hammersmith to Acton Town. As for the underground bits the Jubilee from London Bridge to North Greenwich seems fast between stations. Having worked on its construction I seem to remember 60mph being quoted as the design speed.

Any more info would be welcome.

 

[Vicpaul]

Pic is 45mph couldn't quote the rest

 

[Mojo]

Central is up to 65kph in tunnels and 85kph in the open section (although you can get up to 100kph in the open but this is not permitted).

 

[Met Driver]

Maximum permitted speeds by line:

Bakerloo - 45mph
Central - 85kph
Circle & Hammersmith - 45mph (C Stock may not exceed 40mph)
District - 45mph (C Stock may not exceed 40mph)
Jubilee - 60mph/92kph
Metropolitan - 60mph
Northern - 45mph/72kph
Piccadilly - 45mph
Victoria - Line supplement does not list a maximum permitted speed
Waterloo & City - 60kph westbound/55kph eastbound

These do not necessarily apply throughout the entirety of a given line.

 

[Nym]

Victoria linespeed max is 80km/h or 50mph

On test, the S Stock has gone quicker

 

[Kentish Paul]

Thanks Met Driver.

You confirm my impression that the Jubilee is the fastest when it comes to actual underground lines. They do certainly fly between Canary Wharf and Canada Water, also Bermondsey to London Bridge.

 

[Nym]

Thanks Met Driver.

You confirm my impression that the Jubilee is the fastest when it comes to actual underground lines. They do certainly fly between Canary Wharf and Canada Water, also Bermondsey to London Bridge.

The Jubilee Line units have the same rated speed as the Victoria Line ones, but the Victoria Line averages a much higher speed over the full length. There are only very short sections of the VIC where it's not a 50mph linespeed, from memory;

Between Highbury & Islington and Finsbury Park (69km/h), Green Park and Victoria (short section) and the rest of it is pretty much line speed.

The VIC line and the units are a LOT smoother than the Jubilee Line and 1996TS though.

 

[DJL]

The Jubilee Line units have the same rated speed as the Victoria Line ones, but the Victoria Line averages a much higher speed over the full length. There are only very short sections of the VIC where it's not a 50mph linespeed, from memory;

Between Highbury & Islington and Finsbury Park (69km/h), Green Park and Victoria (short section) and the rest of it is pretty much line speed.

The VIC line and the units are a LOT smoother than the Jubilee Line and 1996TS though.

I wonder what are the reasons for those specific pinch points?
Especially on a line like the Vic which was (I believe) all built at the same time?

Unavoidably tight curves?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, presumably the stations themselves would have a speed limit? Even when closed.

Those yellow lines are a lot closer to the edge than on the mainline!

 

[Nym]

I wonder what are the reasons for those specific pinch points?
Especially on a line like the Vic which was (I believe) all built at the same time?

Unavoidably tight curves?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, presumably the stations themselves would have a speed limit? Even when closed.

Those yellow lines are a lot closer to the edge than on the mainline!

On the Vic it's the unavoidably tight curves that do it, I've known some other reasons for a tempoary speed restriction to be put in but it's too detailed for on here.

The target speeds I've seen on the master displays are 80km/h (linespeed), 69km/h and either 48km/h or 32km/h in some places. (Junctions and whatnot).

I have known trains pulling through a station tailwall still doing 75km/h at some stations through, braking down to 0km/h by the stop point on ATO.

There's also limiters at 35km/h and 16.5km/h for different operating modes but they're not really relevant.

PS: Vic was built in two sections, south of Vic after the rest.

I'm not too sure what the "Station Closed" speed is on the Vic, I suspect you'd be coming up on the station starter at a restrictive aspect anyway so you'd be aiming to stop there anywho. Unless it's programmed to slow on approach to try and clear the starter and do a slow runthrough.

Most "Slow Running" on station closed is due to not having a full speed overlap on the station starters, sometimes enforced by timing loops. So you cannot approach at more than the speed that overlap is set for.

 

[DJL]

I've always thought that trains do seem to pull in to the platform very quickly but I guess I had always assumed it was just an illusion due to the claustrophobic nature of a tube station! 75km/h suprises me.

But then again with the high frequency of the vic line you can't really afford to have trains slowing down...

Although saying that - most times when I've entered a vic line platform just as a train leaves. You can see the next train in the tunnel waiting for the platform to clear. So that train is already slowed down (stopped) anyway.

On the tube acceleration is probably far more relevant than top speed anyway.
Who cares if journey time is 6 mins instead of 7.
But if you get left on the platform for 3 trains - that you care about.

 

[palmersears]

On this topic, why do VIC line trains crawl out of Green Park for a good few meters when traveling southbound, unlike every other station between Oxford Circus and Brixton where they seem to leave and accelerate up to line speed pretty quickly?

 

[Nym]

In my experience its usually waiting for a BMB to clear to give you a distance high enough for full linespeed, usually for a train pulling into Victoria.

 

[palmersears]

Pardon my ignorance, but BMB?

 

[Nym]

Pardon my ignorance, but BMB?

Sorry, used to working with signalling engineers...

Block Marker Board.

It's a signalling asset that marks the boundry of a block in the same way a headed signal would; but does not have any signal head and all 'aspect' information is convayed using the ATP system either with track codes or leaky feeders / loops.

99.9999% of the time these are automatic or semi automatic signals, most station starters and controlled signals are 'headed' with (in the case of Avensys ATP) three aspect heads.

Also; setting off gently at Green Park means that the headways are being used as best, as it's leaving at almost the exact time the required signal clears. Whenever I've been on test runs or silly early / silly late runs it's been full accelaration out of Green Park. (Unless of course we're proceeding in PM or RMF.)

 

[palmersears]

Thanks Nym, very informative!

 

[colchesterken]

The Central line sections between Stratford and Liv st seem fairly fast is that the fastest underground section

 

[Met Driver]

The Central line sections between Stratford and Liv st seem fairly fast is that the fastest underground section

No - the Central line ranks fairly low for that with a maximum speed of 65kph/40mph in the tunnel sections. The Piccadilly has some sections of 45mph tunnel, and as reported upthread, the Victoria line has a maximum of 50mph. I'm not sure if the Jubilee line surpasses this in places while underground.

 

[simple simon]

Met Line used to be at least 70 mph... the limit reduction also slows down Chiltern Railways services.

since north of Harrow LU acts as a track authority for another operator's services it should not be setting a low speed limit just because its what it wants for its trains.

anyway, on the country sections of the Met Main Line acceleration is not so important, since the stations are further apart. Higher speeds are what matter here. Oh and not stopping at every station en route and having trains which offer plenty of seating.

Simon

 

[Met Driver]

since north of Harrow LU acts as a track authority for another operator's services it should not be setting a low speed limit just because its what it wants for its trains.

Not sure what gave you that impression - the A Stock was of course restricted to 50mph in its later years but Chilterns have always been allowed to do 60mph on the main lines North of Harrow and between Rickmansworth & Amersham in spite of this. I'm not sure of the reason for dropping the maximum line speed from 70 to 60 though. I'd hazard a guess at track condition or modern signalling safety requirements.

 

[simple simon]

Not sure what gave you that impression - the A Stock was of course restricted to 50mph in its later years but Chilterns have always been allowed to do 60mph on the main lines North of Harrow and between Rickmansworth & Amersham in spite of this. I'm not sure of the reason for dropping the maximum line speed from 70 to 60 though. I'd hazard a guess at track condition or modern signalling safety requirements.

The track authority came because Chiltern dont own any infrastructure themselves. They use either Network Rail's or LU's. I would assume that Chiltern pay track access charges to LU? I also assume that if another operator needed to get to Marylebone from the WCML direction then they too would still be able to do so.

OK, Marylebone has so few platforms that it can only just about cope with the number of trains that it serves, but thats a different issue.

Simon

 

[Nym]

Not sure what gave you that impression - the A Stock was of course restricted to 50mph in its later years but Chilterns have always been allowed to do 60mph on the main lines North of Harrow and between Rickmansworth & Amersham in spite of this. I'm not sure of the reason for dropping the maximum line speed from 70 to 60 though. I'd hazard a guess at track condition or modern signalling safety requirements.

Track Condition, it may also be that signal overlaps have now been calculated to 60mph instead of 70mph.