Luggage on seats, and on crowded trains.

[muz379]

If they've ever loaded a wheelchair in to the middle of a Pacer then they're even worse than I thought.

Never have them put a wheelchair user in the middle of a pacer , i dont even know if that would be possible , I have had them trying to load them into the wrong door on a 150 tho so the wheelchair would be blocking the door . Constantly get them trying to load buggies in the middle doors on 156's as well which blocks the doors . Ive also had them stand there idly whilst someone tries to load a buggy in the middle of a pacer .

 

[Greenback]

The underlying problem is the pressure to squeeze more and more seats into a coach. When intercity seating was largely at tables there was lots of space between the seat backs.

With franchises now being micro managed by DfT bean counters there isn't much hope for common sense.

That's correct. The suitcases of the day would slide easily into that space between seats. I'm not too sure that today's would, though!

 

[Wolfie]

Spot on. I normally sit by the window and put my bag next to me. I'll never knowingly stop someone else from sitting down. It really doesn't bother me. The bad eggs are the ones who sit by the aisle and put their bag by the window. Proper odd bods. They would obviously rather someone stand than have to sit next to someone.

I often do what you describe and I'm no odd-bod! I do, on the other hand, have a touch of arthritis in one hip! Sitting by the window, with the tumblehome of the carriage wall and the normal piping ducting, plays havoc with my leg! I am quite happy to let anyone else sit in the window seat though....

 

[AM9]

Some flight operators have no weight restrictions on cabin baggage, while train operators warn not to place heavy items in the overhead racks as it may fall out and cause injury.

That's true but there is a limit as to how much a small wheeled case of about 550mm x 450mm x 250mm is likely to weigh bearing in mind that it's owner will need to lift it up. A limit could be stated though.

Question is how do you define which route is which type. Southport-Manchester Airport could probably be classed as a commuter route at 8am in January, but at 10am in July it'll probably be carrying a lot of people with suitcases.

See my comment later on in the post about Thameslink being both. It passes two major airports. In those situations, the option of tip-up seats would probably fare better as long as all passengers understood the priority that luggage has. That would be like wheelchair space. It seems that on some metyro commuter trains, e.g. 378s regular passengers often tip the seats up when the train is very crowded anyway.
Your MAN airport service will be an opportunity for Northern to use the 319s properly. Not sure of the 319/3 configuration as they are usually on Metro duty, but looking at the Porterbrook brochure, it seems that the DMSO(B) has a section near the cab end right next to the doors with 2x4 lontitudonal seats that could be tip-up.

 

[londonbridge]

Got on a train at East Croydon, three table seats taken, the fourth (window side) was occupied by a rucksack, whose owner was sitting in the aisle seat watching a movie with headphones on his laptop. I said "Is that seat free"?. He either couldn't, or pretended not to, hear me, so I tapped him on the shoulder and said, in a louder voice, "Can I have a seat please"? He gave me a black look as he got up and moved the rucksack and I sat down. He couldn't fit the rucksack on his lap, under the table, nor in the aisle because of other people standing, so after a minute or so he was forced to switch the laptop off and put it away before putting the rucksack on the table.

 

[GodAtum]

What do people think of holidaymakers who take the Heathrow Connect instead of the Express or a Southern 377 instead of a GatEx? I often find they are going to the airport with heavy luggage and on those trains its hard to find space.

 

[Greenback]

I applaud anyone who is savvy enough to save money by avoiding so called express services to and from airports!

 

[GatwickDepress]

What do people think of holidaymakers who take the Heathrow Connect instead of the Express or a Southern 377 instead of a GatEx? I often find they are going to the airport with heavy luggage and on those trains its hard to find space.

I regularly travel on Southern services down the Brighton main line and I can't say they're a bother very often. When I do stand, I stand more often from Clapham Junction to East Croydon than from ECR to Gatwick Airport.

I think the open saloon and visibility in modern units help airport passengers feel more comfortable about letting their luggage out of sight. The vestibules are wide enough to allow passengers to board/alight without inconvenience too.

I note more travellers board at Clapham Junction and East Croydon for Gatwick Airport on my services than the Gatwick Express carries in two return trips!

Perhaps when the 387s arrive and dwell times are reduced to the length of an advertising jingle rather than Der Ring des Nibelungen that the 442s have, they could stop at those stations... and maybe pigs will fly and Northern will get rid of their Pacers!

 

[bramling]

Why do people place their baggage next to them, yet there are passengers standing?

We travel extensively by rail, in this country, but perhaps more so in Europe.
Our suitcases are more or less standard size, that we tug along the street on their little wheels.

Whenever we board a train, and have our bags, the first thing we look for is what we term the "baggery", usually easy to find mostly at the end of a carriage, though I have found some in the centre. Otherwise often we can fit them between seats, usually behind one of the tables.

Over head racks are most often not deep enough to take a suitcase, though I did manage to get mine on one once - not a good idea if people are sat underneath:roll:

Suppose one excuse might be that people are afraid another passenger will walk off with their bag when they leave the train - in other words pinch it. Would this be enough reason to block up a seat, when there are standing passengers. Not in my opinion.

I realize train managers have a difficult job, but why not politely put a request over the PA requesting customers not to do so?

I generally won't take up seats with luggage if the train is approaching 50% loading or more, however one exception is where people fail to make use of all the space on the train. I always think back longingly to the 1980s and early 1990s when many trains were generally much quieter especially off-peak. Sadly the biggest factor that makes rail travel more unpleasant nowadays is passenger numbers, and behaviours displayed (by a minority but sadly it's the minority that stand out).

 

[philjo]

When we used to go down to Dorset to visit my Grandparents for the whole of August we were able to send a lot of the luggage in a trunk which BR delivered (then later on we collected from the station after the home deliveries were stopped) - it sometimes was on the same train as us on the way home!

the rest of our luggage & my brother's pram went into the guard's van.

 

[3141]

So it seems that the bottom line is that if the TOC has failed to provide appropriate space that the CoCs make clear is within the bounds of 'normal', it's a free for all choice to:

put luggage on a seat or on the floor between seats preventing their use
or
block a gangway so that movement is difficult along the coach
or
ignore the notices and obstruct the doors, which can be a safety hazard

If the train only has a driver, there's not much anybody can do about it unless other passengers start to gang up against either the passenger with luggage or the objector.

Mmmm...., given the many incidents of fractious behavior on trains often discussed here, I can see that certain routes (Thameslink for example) being a potential hotspot for trouble. Hopefully, there will be some space in the 700s that doesn't block access by disabled passengers.

If the luggage is too big for the overhead rack, there is no other luggage space within the saloon, or there is but it's some way from your seat so you're concerned if you can't keep an eye on it, and the train is crowded, then...

No, you don't put it on a seat or block the gangway.. You get up and take it to the vestibule and stand there with it (especially if the doors are at one third and two third intervals). That's what a passenger would have to do anyway if there aren't any seats left when they and their luggage get on. On something like an electrostar or a class 450 you may be obstructing the doors, but if the train is crowded so are several passengers, and there's plenty of room to get past your case.

There may be more of a problem on trains with end doors, but again it's what you should do, and again it happens regularly on East Coast, for example, when someone gets on with a case and all the seats are already taken. It may be necessary to move your case out of a doorway so that passengers can use it at an intermediate station.

As another poster has said, there's a conflict between seats and luggage space. Ideally there should be two luggage areas on every coach, so that everyone would find one close by.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What do people think of holidaymakers who take the Heathrow Connect instead of the Express or a Southern 377 instead of a GatEx? I often find they are going to the airport with heavy luggage and on those trains its hard to find space.

Like Greenback I applaud those who take the cheaper option. And if you are joining the train at an intermediate station - which tens of thousands must do at Clapham Junction in particular - then you haven't the option of using an Express service anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If we were to go back to when stock such as the SWT Desiros was brand new - has the luggage used by most people changed in the intervening period? What I'm thinking is that nowadays most cases are deeper, and wheeled, and just don't fit the racks. When you do see someone actually able to use an overhead rack for a case it looks unusual nowadays, but there's really quite a bit of room up there...

But were the racks any use when the design was done, or were they just too late. Same with Electro/Turbostars, Voyagers or Pendolinos, did the train spec for the overhead racks on all these rolling stock types just fail to match what was happening in the luggage market?

I don't know about Electrostars, Turbostars and Desiros, but I suspect that the problem in Pendolinos and Voyagers is that their bodyshells were designed with tilting in mind and the luggage racks is one place where dimensions were cut back. Also I've read that Richard Branson wanted their interiors to be different from other trains and to resemble the inside of an aircraft (not the wide-bodied type!).

 

[MP33]

A solution I found to this problem on Greater Anglia is to travel 1st class. The other day I had enough seats for me, my umbrella and my briefcase. Another fellow had a seat for his golf clubs.

It must have been golf day at head office.

 

[drbdrb]

Ah the delight of getting on, standing next to an aisle sitter with a free seat next to them, and asking if the seat is free.

And after they have stood up to let me in, opening my bag to get out a book or other items, close the bag. Find room for it in the luggage rack. Then take off coat. Fold and put on top of bag. Then take off jacket and fold and put on top off bag.

All the while the aisle sitter is standing, huffing.

And as I am only going one stop, 15 minutes later asking them to move so I can get out.

 

[westv]

A solution I found to this problem on Greater Anglia is to travel 1st class. The other day I had enough seats for me, my umbrella and my briefcase. Another fellow had a seat for his golf clubs.

It must have been golf day at head office.

Times must be hard. No chauffer with the Aston?

 

[185143]

I am one of those people who makes for a window seat next to an aisle sitter who obviously doesn't want the window seat taken! I just LOVE it!

 

[AM9]

What do people think of holidaymakers who take the Heathrow Connect instead of the Express or a Southern 377 instead of a GatEx? I often find they are going to the airport with heavy luggage and on those trains its hard to find space.

They are both travelling in accordance with the NR CoC. I presume that they CoC doesn't insist that passengers must use the most expensive service on a route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am one of those people who makes for a window seat next to an aisle sitter who obviously doesn't want the window seat taken! I just LOVE it!

The 'aisle sitter' of years gone by was the 'that seat is taken by my briefcase/newspaper/umbrella/etc.'. Failure to move them when asked resulted in them being sat on. They didn't do that again!

 

[hassaanhc]

What do people think of holidaymakers who take the Heathrow Connect instead of the Express or a Southern 377 instead of a GatEx? I often find they are going to the airport with heavy luggage and on those trains its hard to find space.

What if they live on the either the Heathrow Connect or Southern routes? And during the day, the leading two coaches of a London-bound Heathrow Connect would be pretty empty, and also with luggage space in each coach (don't use the last two as people at Southall don't move past the canopy and have to rush into the last coach due to where the stop mark is :roll.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I sometimes take a suitcase on the train. If it isn't too heavy I can put it in the luggage rack. It just about fits on the Desiro and fits with acres of room to spare on a 455 (due to no air conditioning equipment meaning the ceiling is higher). However these do have stickers warning people not to place heavy luggage on them. It doesn't fit in the rack of a 377 (I think) and haven't tried it with a 458/5.
If it is too heavy to lift that high up then I squash it in the seat next to me, or put it flat in the wheelchair space and sit over it in a tip up seat.
The other week I had to place it on the long side in order to give someone the seat next to me, this was an airline seat in a 458/5 with loads of legroom so wasn't that bad.

 

[krus_aragon]

From my observations at Swansea it appears that 175's are more problematic for bikes but they have far better luggage space.

These issues are intertwined on 175s. On a 158, the bike racks are "between" the vestibules, and not on the way to the seats, so people don't think to leave their luggage there. On a 2-car 175, luggage racks are only provided at the end doors, and people walk past the bike racks en route to their seats, so will generally deposit their luggage there unless the space is already occupied by a bike. (A 3-car 175 has racks at either in coach B as well, but that doesn't help too much in coach C.)

Many is the time I've reorganised other people's cases to navigate my bike to the restraining straps on a 175, or given up and stood in the vestibule with the bike. I can't recall having to do so in a 158.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

As another poster has said, there's a conflict between seats and luggage space. Ideally there should be two luggage areas on every coach, so that everyone would find one close by.[

Ideally for "express layout" coaches (end doors) there would be a luggage rack at each end and maybe one in the middle of the coach, though there's probably no chance of that happening as about 8 seats would be lost per coach.

 

[northwichcat]

I am one of those people who makes for a window seat next to an aisle sitter who obviously doesn't want the window seat taken! I just LOVE it!

To be fair some people might want to sit in aisle seat because either:
1. They're claustrophobic
2. They're getting off the train while it'll be very busy and don't want too difficult a job trying to alight.

 

[AM9]

To be fair some people might want to sit in aisle seat because either:
1. They're claustrophobic
2. They're getting off the train while it'll be very busy and don't want too difficult a job trying to alight.

Then they should readily stand up and let another passenger take the window seat rather than grumble at/tut/try to ignore a polite request.

 

[Tibbs]

What do people think of holidaymakers who take the Heathrow Connect instead of the Express or a Southern 377 instead of a GatEx? I often find they are going to the airport with heavy luggage and on those trains its hard to find space.

I did exactly that on my way to Gatwick a few weeks ago - if someone wants to pay the premium for me between the Southern Service and the Gatwick Express, they're more than welcome!

I travel light, so my cases fitted nicely in the foyer without impinging on the doors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Then they should readily stand up and let another passenger take the window seat rather than grumble at/tut/try to ignore a polite request.

Or twist around in the seat as so many people seem to do now rather than stand.

If you do that you're going to get my (rather large) arse in your face!

 

[stut]

To be fair some people might want to sit in aisle seat because either:
1. They're claustrophobic
2. They're getting off the train while it'll be very busy and don't want too difficult a job trying to alight.

3. They're tall and the only way to squeeze into the tiny seats is to have your legs at an angle out into the aisle.

But there's no excuse for being grumpy about letting someone in (or blocking the window seat with luggage).

 

[PeterC]

3. They're tall and the only way to squeeze into the tiny seats is to have your legs at an angle out into the aisle.

Not a problem on any trains that I use regularly but a serious one on buses which all seem to have had the interior layout designed by midgets.

Although I suppose that being so exceptionally tall at 5ft 10 I shouldn't expect special treatment.

 

[Class377]

3. They're tall and the only way to squeeze into the tiny seats is to have your legs at an angle out into the aisle.

But there's no excuse for being grumpy about letting someone in (or blocking the window seat with luggage).

4. They've got booked/reserved seats in an aisle?

 

[stut]

Not a problem on any trains that I use regularly but a serious one on buses which all seem to have had the interior layout designed by midgets.

Although I suppose that being so exceptionally tall at 5ft 10 I shouldn't expect special treatment.

6'1" isn't exceptionally tall, but I still struggle with modern(ish) commuter stock (365s and 321s on my route), both in terms of legroom and shoulder space (my shoulders overhang 2+2 seating, let alone 2+3.

I don't expect special treatment. But I will take an aisle seat - and if we stop, I will remove things from the flip-down table and fold it up, or move my knees up, to give a clear sign that the window seat is available.

 

[Chouette]

6'1" isn't exceptionally tall, but I still struggle with modern(ish) commuter stock (365s and 321s on my route), both in terms of legroom and shoulder space (my shoulders overhang 2+2 seating, let alone 2+3.

I don't expect special treatment. But I will take an aisle seat - and if we stop, I will remove things from the flip-down table and fold it up, or move my knees up, to give a clear sign that the window seat is available.

Oh yes - there are some trains where anyone sitting on the seat next to me will have to cope with a knee in their side as my legs just physically will not fit in straight. I'm not even 6 foot, so I'm scarcely a freak anomaly!

 

[AM9]

6'1" isn't exceptionally tall, but I still struggle with modern(ish) commuter stock (365s and 321s on my route), both in terms of legroom and shoulder space (my shoulders overhang 2+2 seating, let alone 2+3.

I don't expect special treatment. But I will take an aisle seat - and if we stop, I will remove things from the flip-down table and fold it up, or move my knees up, to give a clear sign that the window seat is available.

If there isn't enough room for someone to squeeze past your folded knees, then you would be expected to stand up to let them in.