There has to be a line somewhere between supporting the needs of minorities and anti-majoritarianism. Lifts and level-access platforms are useful to many people (although having just come back from France, there's work to be done there - 3ft climb to board a train). However, where is the line between a disabled-access toilet cutting out a few seats and a ramped footbridge replacing a Victorian one?
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LU and the DDA
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There has to be a line somewhere between supporting the needs of minorities and anti-majoritarianism. Lifts and level-access platforms are useful to many people (although having just come back from France, there's work to be done there - 3ft climb to board a train). However, where is the line between a disabled-access toilet cutting out a few seats and a ramped footbridge replacing a Victorian one?
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Metrailway
Member
A good example where a DDA change disadvantages the majority of passengers are bus blinds. On older London buses, you would get bus blinds with a destination and the intermediate places the bus would go through. Now due to DDA, newer buses only display destination.
Eagle
Established Member
Yeah, but that's just London's insistence on archaic manual blinds rather than electronic LED or flipdot ones which can display scrolling information
Yeah, but that's just London's insistence on archaic manual blinds rather than electronic LED or flipdot ones which can display scrolling information
And are harder to read from a distance than the manual ones, to the extent where I've sometimes stopped the wrong bus because I've misread the number. :roll:
Metrailway
Member
Yeah, but that's just London's insistence on archaic manual blinds rather than electronic LED or flipdot ones which can display scrolling information
LT (as it was know then) chose bus blinds over DMIs as they are more clearer. As well as helping visually impaired people, it is very important for passengers with good eyesight in London as a large number of bus stops have multiple routes calling at them. You gotta remember that DMI scrolling information is pretty useless at the majority of stops as there isn't enough time to read it all before boarding. Bus blinds are also significantly more reliable.
They shouldn't be more reliable.. something with moving parts against a rack of LEDs (and add more LEDs than the cheaper digital 'blinds' and you get near perfect 'print-style' resolution). But, you are right - even though you shouldn't be!!
Given buses don't all look the same, I am surprised nobody thought to have a large display to give the number & destination and then a secondary screen that could show stopping/via information - which would update as the bus moved along (after all, they're all fitted with GPS for the internal screens). If it was a secondary screen, I'm sure it wouldn't fall foul of any DDA rules.
Scrolling text (as long as it is a certain size) clearly doesn't breach any rules or else you'd not have it on trains, or indeed on the screens inside the bus!
Having that extra information could even be better placed on the screen to the side, so you can read it while boarding. Failing that, put more information at the bus stop itself. The Countdown system was good for its time, but conveys far too little data - and it's not at all stops anyway.
Given buses don't all look the same, I am surprised nobody thought to have a large display to give the number & destination and then a secondary screen that could show stopping/via information - which would update as the bus moved along (after all, they're all fitted with GPS for the internal screens). If it was a secondary screen, I'm sure it wouldn't fall foul of any DDA rules.
Scrolling text (as long as it is a certain size) clearly doesn't breach any rules or else you'd not have it on trains, or indeed on the screens inside the bus!
Having that extra information could even be better placed on the screen to the side, so you can read it while boarding. Failing that, put more information at the bus stop itself. The Countdown system was good for its time, but conveys far too little data - and it's not at all stops anyway.
Coming soon - an extra 800 signs, plus the equivalent information available on-line or by text messge.
What extra data do you want?
Bear in mind that at London bus stops there *should* always be a minimum of a timetable listing all the mahor stops beyond that point for each route (and often more than that - maps of the area, maps showing where all the bus routes from that area go).
The problem is the time it takes to 'scroll' as they like to show (in places) so many 'next buses'. It keeps the next one at the top, then goes through pages - so it can be ages before you can see when buses 2, 3 and 4 are due - as it's showing the 9th bus which is 30 minutes away (or whatever).
I'd also think that showing buses and their destination/route (scrolling perhaps, like railway platform signs) could save people having to check the - admittedly well designed - bus stop signs.
It's not essential for the latter, but I am not sure why each page change takes so long - or why they can't scroll the information? I hope the new screens are better anyway.
I'd also think that showing buses and their destination/route (scrolling perhaps, like railway platform signs) could save people having to check the - admittedly well designed - bus stop signs.
It's not essential for the latter, but I am not sure why each page change takes so long - or why they can't scroll the information? I hope the new screens are better anyway.
That's assuming they're accurate. Traffic conditions tend to mess up timetables so much that '4 MINUTES' could mean anything from two to twenty. Incidentally, why are actual timetables disappearing, often to be replaced by a list of where the buses are going, but not where or when they will stop on the way? It's awfully confusing if you do not know the area.
I have not seen this anywhere I know. Can you give any examples?
It's always seemed strange that since so much of the LU network was built following WW1 that better provision wasn't made for the diisabled (there were a lot of was veterans missing limbs). I'm thinking of the stations that have lifts but they can't be used due to steps to/from the platforms.
King Street, Aberdeen, outside Morrison's. Both First Red Line buses, 1 and 2, stop there, along with the less-regular 13 (Stagecoach also stop there, but are not on the PIS). They are supposed to run every ten minutes during weekdays, and the board usually shows something like:
- 1 - DANESTONE - 5 MINUTES
- 2 - ASHWOOD - 10 MINUTES
- 1 - DANESTONE - 15 MINUTES
When you have been standing there for ten minutes and nothing has appeared, you begin to wonder whatever gave them the idea that this was possible.
A typical timetable there will show a list of times for each bus, along with destinations and some mysterious calling points, such as:
RED LINE 1/1A
- ORCHARD ROAD
- BRAEHEAD
- DANESTONE
These are the fare-staging points from this stop. What it doesn't tell you is that the bus runs up King Street past King's College (for the the university) and to Bridge of Don (where loads of people go). As a result, it is useless for someone who does not know that already.
The old Countdown system worked by calculating times by passing sensors, which means the time wasn't that accurate (the bus could pass a point then break down or be stuck in an accident).
All buses now have GPS, so I'd expect them to be more accurate - and to have some intelligence (like seeing how slow a bus is going, and working out the likely delay, or even looking at buses before it - much like TomTom HD Traffic works using lots of data). I have no idea if it is more accurate, but the technology is there.
All buses now have GPS, so I'd expect them to be more accurate - and to have some intelligence (like seeing how slow a bus is going, and working out the likely delay, or even looking at buses before it - much like TomTom HD Traffic works using lots of data). I have no idea if it is more accurate, but the technology is there.
Eagle
Established Member
The GPS countdown system that's been used for several years in Coventry works fine, if it knows where the buses actually are. So you'll see something like
Which means that it knows where the 1 is, and it'll be here in nine minutes (give or take a couple it's typically accurate). But it has no idea where the 12 is, just that it's timetabled to arrive at 16:32 (which it sometimes will, but more often will be very late).
Once you're used to it it's fine... :roll:
Code:
1 Chapelfields 9 mins
12 University 16:32Which means that it knows where the 1 is, and it'll be here in nine minutes (give or take a couple it's typically accurate). But it has no idea where the 12 is, just that it's timetabled to arrive at 16:32 (which it sometimes will, but more often will be very late).
Once you're used to it it's fine... :roll:
I can confirm that the accuracy has increased since the introduction of the new iBus-Based system. The old system was surprisingly accurate for the technology it used - each bus regularly reported not just which was the last beacon it passed (of about 4500 throughout London) but how many metres it had travelled since then.
The system works by averaging the times of the preceding buses - but then also factors in what happens at the same time on that day type previously (so it treats school days and holidays differently). So if there's a jam at 8am every morning the system will be expecting one today.
If you want boring about Countdown do feel free to ask more questions.
The main problems we have tend to be at or near the start of routes where the system has to make some assumptions about when a bus will start its journey (and if a bus stops past the stand its supposed to use this can fool the system into thinking it has set off).
The old system simply didn't show buses until they'd passed the first beacon on their route.
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Metrailway
Member
iBus is one thing I don't like about newer buses. It claims to help visually or hearing-impaired passengers, but it's useless to these passengers as it announces the stop way too late, so the bus passes the stop before passengers can ring the bell. It also means a endless stream of announcements, which must get annoying for regular commuters.
I don't think they announce too late, but I've certainly not been on all of the routes with it fitted!
On the 55, which I used to travel on a lot, the next stop shows on the screen almost as soon as you leave the last stop. The audio could be timed to be a bit earlier I suppose - but that would be just a software tweak.
On the 55, which I used to travel on a lot, the next stop shows on the screen almost as soon as you leave the last stop. The audio could be timed to be a bit earlier I suppose - but that would be just a software tweak.
If you can tell me where that's happening I'll pass it on to be looked into. My experience is that you usually have plenty of time to press the button after the stop is announced - I find it very useful when visiting unfamiliar areas.
Not sure why the comment about newer buses - it's fitted to almost every TfL bus in London.
We've tried to reduce the redunancy of the messages - in the trial it said "The next stop is..." which we removed. The buses no longer announces its number and destination after every stop. However feedback from the visually impaired has been very positive.
Most regular commuters tend to ignore it as they do the messages on trains or tubes unless it's one they're listenign out for.
The visuals display as soon as you're a fixed (small) distance past the previous stop - though sometimes the route and destination will display first. The audio is triggered a set distance before the next stop - I can check what that is if you want.
Metrailway
Member
I've found it to occur on the 18 between Harlesden and Wembley, on the Harrow Road, where the buses travel at a good speed. Admittedly, it has been a few months since I've been on it so it may have been improved since then. On other buses in the area, I've found it to be good, maybe because buses travel slower due to the traffic.
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On some buses, I notice that even when you press stop it won't always say 'stopping' even though you hear the noise (and the driver presumably gets the 'stop' light on the dashboard).
A minor problem, but it could mean someone panics that the bus isn't going to stop - and press over and over.
A minor problem, but it could mean someone panics that the bus isn't going to stop - and press over and over.
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