Low speed buffer collision at London Kings Cross 15/08/17

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Would a short first shift when returning to nights from a different shift work? ie if you would normally work a 10 hour shift. On your first shift back you only do a 6 hour shift maybe? It could help, ease you into it. Making it a little easier?

 

[Chris M]

so can you tell me Chris M - how would this not have happened if they had followed the recommendations that you talk about?

If the shift had been within the recommendations - less than 8 hours long and allowed a break of sufficient duration in a suitable location not more than 4 hours after the start then the accident would have been significiantly less likely to happen. I don't have the report to hand, but ISTR it also mentioning that guidance on managing fatigue was limited, meaning that she was not best equipped to avoid fatigue. It's not entirely down to the TOC (based on the incomplete information we have), but do not hang the blame solely at the door of the driver either.

As for the general case, then the risk of nightshifts could be reduced by making the first night shift a shorter one and structuring it so that the safety critical activities are confined to the first parts of the shift. I don't know what duties away from the front of a train a driver has, but surely there must be some paperwork or similar activity that they need to do.

 

[ComUtoR]

Pretty much all of my duties are safety critical. When I am not safety critical, I am not working. I also have almost zero paperwork. Our role is a practical one.

 

[westcoaster]

The last point noted in the report was about the driver having itchy eyes due to the air con. On 387/1's they have an annoying feature where the air con turns on every twenty minutes even if you turn it off. But they also have fitted a fan to the doo monitors which blows hot air right at you, you can't switch it off, comes on when it wants and has the affect of making you drowsy. Only way to combat it was to put the air con onto the coldest setting.
I wonder if that affected this driver right at the wrong point.

 

[Clip]

I don't think there is a sensible time.



'Well rested' is misleading in terms of fatigue. The issue more specifically here is that having days off before a night shift means that your body clock will regulate itself back to a day/night pattern based on the current amount of darkness. Nights shift is then more difficult because, on that first night at least, you tend to have to stretch out your evening. You would have normally woken up in the morning and then you take an early evening nap because you want to force yourself into sleep credit and then wake up and then push through 15 or so hours until the morning. Knowing you can nap at work tends to convince people they can use short naps to push themselves through any fatigue issues. The problem is that your body clock is still on a normal day/night pattern. Thus the fatigue creeps in.

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I'm aware of how the body clock works but after years of doing nights both as a trackworker and then station staff I always managed to get my body right the day before a night shift and was never having to be awake for 15 hours on the bounce because of it - including the commute and given drivers are meant to like within a certain distance form the depot then that's even more reason for them to be getting their head down in the afternoon/evening.

I believe the railway suffers so badly because our shift patterns are erratic. Our start times are inconsistent and even within the same week you can have an 0345 start and then have a 0953 start the next day (or vice versa)

One of our depots managed to remove the night shift all together. The effect that had is what tsr described. You have more early early and more late late finishes. I'm not sure if that's better or worse.

the early earlies should be the main killer for people doing them as that's an unholy hour to be getting up and starting which is why a night shift is important. Though maybe a later start night shift would be more [productive to get rid of the early earlies. Say a midnight -0700 or something which should, in theory reduce these microsleeps or possibly having a late turn the day before then a night shift so you are eased into it.

I think in this day and age when more and more pax want later and earlier trains the hiring of more staff will certainly help but they need a good hard look at the shift patterns. Does me head in when the missus has an early shift now as its far too early

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm aware of how the body clock works but after years of doing nights both as a trackworker and then station staff I always managed to get my body right the day before a night shift and was never having to be awake for 15 hours on the bounce because of it - including the commute and given drivers are meant to like within a certain distance form the depot then that's even more reason for them to be getting their head down in the afternoon/evening.

I assume you have never done drivers’ shifts yourself?

There has been discussion above of how platform staff may do a run of up to 7 nights, allowing them to adapt. The unique problem with drivers’ shifts, in this respect, is that they change so often do you are never able to get into a rhythm.

Good luck going to sleep in the early afternoon a couple of days after finishing a series of lates, where you will have been starting a nine hour shift at the same time you are now trying to sleep... If you can do this you must be a medical miracle - because I’ve not spoken to a single driver who can manage this and certainly cannot do it myself.

You may be superhuman, but the reality is that vast majority of people with normal body clocks cannot force themselves to sleep on demand, if they are not tired.

 

[Clip]

Yes, but there has been discussion above of how platform staff may do a run of up to 7 nights, allowing them to adapt. The unique problem with drivers’ shifts, in this respect, is that they change so often do you are never able to get into a rhythm.

Good luck going to sleep on the afternoon a couple of days after finishing a series of lates, where you will have been starting a nine hour shift at the same time you are now trying to sleep... If you can do this you must be a medical miracle - because I’ve not spoken to a single driver who can manage this and certainly cannot do it myself.

You may be superhuman, but the reality is that vast majority of people with normal body clocks cannot force themselves to sleep on demand, if they are not tired.

You don't have to be superhuman to force your body into doing something but thanks for the praise.

if you roll from lates into nights then I would suggest that after your last late turns you stay up as late and as long as possible so that you can get a good and long sleep and as someone posted up thread (or one of them which seeing as there are two now its a bit confusing) the use of a good proper blackout curtain and something around your door if it leaks light to ensure the room is pitch black helps you sleep a lot better than you would ever think. Add into that no mobile phone that will distract you and cover up the alarm clock lights if you have them and you have the recipe for a good and fulfilled nights sleep.

If people haven't tried the above then could I suggest they do because saying its not possible is simply not true.

 

[Bromley boy]

You don't have to be superhuman to force your body into doing something but thanks for the praise.

if you roll from lates into nights then I would suggest that after your last late turns you stay up as late and as long as possible so that you can get a good and long sleep and as someone posted up thread (or one of them which seeing as there are two now its a bit confusing) the use of a good proper blackout curtain and something around your door if it leaks light to ensure the room is pitch black helps you sleep a lot better than you would ever think. Add into that no mobile phone that will distract you and cover up the alarm clock lights if you have them and you have the recipe for a good and fulfilled nights sleep.

If people haven't tried the above then could I suggest they do because saying its not possible is simply not true.

I'm afraid it was a poor attempt at irony rather than praise as I don't believe you have done it. In fact I know you have not done it, as you don't work drivers' shift patterns.

Furthermore, although staying up late and similar techniques help to some extent rolling from lates into nights, they do not eliminate fatigue over such a short time frame, especially if two days after your nights finish you're expected to be at work at 0400! Don't you think most people commenting above will have tried those techniques and others?!

Here we have a thread where a number of current drivers have commented that, in their view, their current shift patterns lead to dangerous levels of fatigue. Despite having never done those shifts yourself, apparently you know better. It is attitudes like yours that are part of the problem and, might I add, seem most bizarre and unhelpful from someone who purports to be a member of rail staff, who should surely be well aware of the problem of fatigue in this industry.

The best way to deal with this, as noted above, would be a more sensible shift structure and increased staffing levels but needless to say that would involve cost - it's cheaper for TOCs to live with a few incidents and the occasional death, so that is what will continue.

 

[Clip]

I'm afraid it was a poor attempt a irony rather than praise as I don't believe you have done it. In fact I know you have not done it, as you don't work drivers' shift patterns.

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So because I have never worked drivers shift patterns you are assuming that I have never done what I have claimed to have done in as much as being able to force myself to sleep to ensure I get enough sleep ready for the next shift?

Well I'm please you know so much about me and what I have done which makes answering the rest of your post not worth bothering about.

 

[Clip]

P.S I never claimed to still be a member of rail staff whatsoever so before you try and rattle off against me , try not to make yourself look silly.

 

[Dai Corner]

As an outsider can I ask why drivers' shift patterns seem to be so irregular?

(Passenger) train timetables are the same Monday-Friday and Saturdays are generally the same as M-F without some peak services. Admittedly Sundays are different but let's not open the Sunday working can of worms!

 

[Bromley boy]

As an outsider can I ask why drivers' shift patterns seem to be so irregular?

(Passenger) train timetables are the same Monday-Friday and Saturdays are generally the same as M-F without some peak services. Admittedly Sundays are different but let's not open the Sunday working can of worms!

Lots of reasons but largely:

- Working around an AM and PM peak, with the service ramping up and down accordingly, naturally requires an “early” shift progressively booking on between 0330 - 0800 (most before 0600), working until early/mid pm, and a “late” shift progressively booking on between 1300 - 1800 working through until late evening or end of running

- for historical reasons (no idea what these are!) you alternate each week between earlies and lates - perhaps two weeks of each before switching would be better

- lots of movements need to take place before and after working - getting trains from stabling points, prepping them etc and then disposing them. Drivers often start and finish and hour or more either side of their first/final working

- nights are used for train preps, moving defective trains to maintenance depots etc. They can be eliminated by making the early and late shifts more extreme, but with mixed results (see above).

- the four day week is a blessing and a curse as we really do a true five day week (35 hours) in four days and this inevitably means start finishes get more extreme as shifts become longer.

 

[Adlington]

Lots of reasons but largely:

- Working around an AM and PM peak,

- lots of movements need to take place before and after working

- nights are used for train preps, moving defective trains to maintenance depots etc.

Ok, but these do not change from day to day....

 

[mallard]

Ok, but these do not change from day to day....

The railway operates a 7-day timetable yet some (all? most?) drivers work a 4-day week. Therefore, mathematically, for drivers to work a "regular" schedule, the schedules would have to be on a 28 (7 x 4, since 7 is prime this is the lowest common factor) week cycle. Since the timetables change more often than that it's therefore not possible to have a completely regular schedule.

 

[Bromley boy]

Ok, but these do not change from day to day....

No, the services operated don't, but the drivers working them will do on a daily basis.

Each link will work through the entire roster, approx an year long, and the days worked and jobs covered each week (and therefore the times worked) will vary almost constantly.

The idea is that everyone does a bit of everything, within each link, are there is freedom to swap but this is not always possible.

 

[Dai Corner]

No, the services operated don't, but the drivers working them will do on a daily basis.

Each link will work through the entire roster, approx an year long, and the days worked and jobs covered each week (and therefore the times worked) will vary almost constantly.

The idea is that everyone does a bit of everything, within each link, are there is freedom to swap but this is not always possible.

So basically it's so that drivers can work different shift lengths as required to run the timetabled service but end up working the same total number of hours in a year.

 

[Bromley boy]

P.S I never claimed to still be a member of rail staff whatsoever so before you try and rattle off against me , try not to make yourself look silly.

1. So what? You claimed you were rail staff in the past so should understand something about the fatigue issues.

2. As I thought, you’ve not done drivers’ shifts so are commenting on this thread from a position of complete ignorance.

What was that about looking silly?

 

[Bromley boy]

So basically it's so that drivers can work different shift lengths as required to run the timetabled service but end up working the same total number of hours in a year.

That’s about right.

There are variations but broadly average 8:45 per shift * 4 = 35 hours per week. A couple of hours either side but it “comes out in the wash”, so to speak, over a full year.

There has to be a better way of doing it, although I don’t pretend to know what it is. I think part of the problem is that the vast majority prefer early shifts so trying to create permanent early and late shifts would be virtually impossible.

Swapping is the saving grace but, as I alluded to before, is totally dependent on depot and finding people willing to swap! I don’t have any problems but I’m fortunate in that I favour middles, which are probably the least favoured shift pattern amongst drivers.

Ironically considering the subject of this thread at my depot it’s easy to get rid of nights but that’s because you very, very rarely need to stay later than 0300 so they’re seen as a cushy number.

I know nights are dreaded by drivers at other depots where you start at 2300 and finish up driving rush hour trains from 0500 - 0700 or so!

 

[Suraggu]

When I start night turns it is an 8 hour shift but you do that for 11 nights swapping departments after 7 shifts. Its horrific and you dont get any respite.

 

[philthetube]

You don't have to be superhuman to force your body into doing something but thanks for the praise.

if you roll from lates into nights then I would suggest that after your last late turns you stay up as late and as long as possible so that you can get a good and long sleep and as someone posted up thread (or one of them which seeing as there are two now its a bit confusing) the use of a good proper blackout curtain and something around your door if it leaks light to ensure the room is pitch black helps you sleep a lot better than you would ever think. Add into that no mobile phone that will distract you and cover up the alarm clock lights if you have them and you have the recipe for a good and fulfilled nights sleep.

If people haven't tried the above then could I suggest they do because saying its not possible is simply not true.

This sounds as if you will gel a very enjoyable rest day, coming into work feeling as if you have lost your rest day because of shift patterns is not conducive to good performance either.

 

[daikilo]

Coming back to the incident in question, one of the issues with tiredness is the way it can be exacerbated by adrenalin or rather the lack of it. I could well imagine the driver's adrenalin flow dropped as the train ran into the platfrom and the brain gave the signal "job done now" even if it wasn't quite. It has to be fought by actually doing something more than just waiting for the final stop.

 

[Chris M]

Microsleeps can be very disconcerting, it doesn't need to be a "job done now" thing. I've fortunately never experienced them in a safety-critical environment but I particularly remember experiencing one about 70% of the way through a task requiring sustained concentration for about 40 minutes. It may only have lasted less than a second but it was a good 30 seconds before I was back up to speed with everything.