Low Moor proposed railway station

[yorksrob]

Standards improve for a reason.

The fact that you can carry on using stations on curves/ step entrance buses/ vehicles with badly polluting engines/ buildings without proper disabled access (etc) in 2013 doesn't mean we should allow those lower standards on newbuild stuff.

Whatever you think of current regulations, any new station has to meet them, got to be realistic about any proposals for a new station here.

It‘s all very well having these things as a nice to have, but we‘re at the point where this cost is actually preventing stations from being opened.

These "good reasons" are not a good reason to not have a station there in the first place.

The other issue is that without having a rudimentary halt to prove the numbers in the first place, it may never be possible to justify an all singing and all dancing expensive statipn of the type specified today.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Presumably if these regulations are such a good idea, do you think it would have been worth having them in the 80‘s, and would the many stations in West Yorkshire that would never have been opened at that time as a consequence have been a price worth paying for these regulations ?

 

[lancastrian]

I tend to agree that the cost of new stations is excessive. But I must disagree with you on the consultants. Who do you think designs it? You can't just tell a builder 'now my good man, build a station here and make it quick!'. You need to design everything from the foundations, retaining walls if you're in a cutting, platform geometry (taking into account the kinematic envelope of passing trains), lighting, drainage, highway works for the car park and connections to the road, rerouting lineside cabling, environmental considerations, timetabling etc. etc. etc. A lot of the kit used now is modular which does cut down on the design work to some extent, but each location will have its own unique problems to deal with. Engineering consultants profit margins are pretty low being in a very competitive market.

As to who I think will do the designs, well personally I would consider an Architect, and for all the rest a Civil Engineer. Both of which are practical jobs and not one of these nebulous 'consultants'. Often more money is spent on 'consultants', and the government asking local councils to 'bid for funds', than would be actually needed to build the stations in the first place.

Also I agree with your last comments concerning Engineering consultant, but this can be covered by a design and build contract with such firms. Plus I agree about modular designs, but this is nothing new, the Southern Railway was doing this quite successfully between the Wars, at a reasonable cost. Without 'consultants' to my knowledge, just plain common sense and a good engineering department.

The railway is a very different beast to the 1980s. The safety standards in place now make it more difficult to build next to a live railway and of course there is DDR which wasn't a consideration back in the 80s. Network Rail define the standards for new stations, and ORR who control rail safety, stemming ultimately from government legislation. I share your frustrations about the excessive costs. It would probably be significantly cheaper if the railways weren't so split up, but again that's at the political level rather than at a level the industry can do something about.

Yes I accept that thing have changed since the 1980's, and not often for the better, yes I agree that stations should be accessible to all people, but many of these 1980's station where exactly that, by using a road over bridge and a ramp down to each platform, no need for expensive lifts.

Yes you are quite right concerning the total political shambles of the why our railways were supposedly 'privatised', a total dogs breakfast of a system. What is needed is a simple concession system, without all the money wasted by both the bidders and the D(a)fT Government Department. I am sure that a simple system of modular construction of a basic 6 car platform could be done at a reasonable price of no more than £3 million for two platforms.

Just my views, sits back to wait and be told why this is not possible.

Sorry made a bit of a mess, the quote in the middle is my response, I have no idea what I did wrong!!!

 

[MarkyT]

Dewsbury Spen Valley and Wakefield branch connections with through services extended to Leeds via White Rose Shopping Centre. Sketch updated to V3.

http://www.townend.me/files/dewsbury.pdf

 

[AndyHudds]

Why no curve in the Huddersfield direction?

The Spen areas have a big connection with Huddersfield, one in particular is that Huddersfield Town draw a lot of support from this areas.

 

[eastdyke]

Why no curve in the Huddersfield direction?

The Spen areas have a big connection with Huddersfield, one in particular is that Huddersfield Town draw a lot of support from this areas.

Are you suggesting provision for a service that would imply a few rammed units every other Saturday for 8 months of the year?

 

[MarkyT]

Why no curve in the Huddersfield direction?
The Spen areas have a big connection with Huddersfield, one in particular is that Huddersfield Town draw a lot of support from this areas.

The design evolved from the original idea of the Spen Valley connected across Dewsbury to Wakefield using the 2 curves via at first 1, then 2 bays at the Huddersfield end of Dewsbury station, and offering connections to Leeds and Huddersfield there. Some contributors pointed out this was unlikely to work as it would be difficult to thread useful paths across the main line given projected future traffic density. Grumpy then suggested running the Spen Valley trains through to Leeds, and it struck me this could be a good way of linking more of the local area through to the White Rose Shopping Centre by rail, something also discussed in the recent Bradford crossrail thread. Further to this, using the Wakefield curve and a little fill in electrification, stopping trains from Sheffield and Doncaster could be re-routed through Dewsbury and WRSC to link up even more areas, and offer some new cross-pennine opportunities interchanging from South Yorkshire that avoid travelling into Bradford or Leeds. This proposal still maintains connections to Huddersfield via Dewsbury Interchange, or Low Moor. A more complex junction incorporating an additional Spen - Huddersfield curve would be more costly clearly and implies a more complex service pattern unless the Spen -Dewsbury curve was omitted. A more complex service pattern also implies a lower frequency on each leg, which could be less attractive to potential passengers. Metro buses 220 and 229 would no doubt continue to connect the Spen Valley to Huddersfield directly with the option of going by train via Dewsbury offering new possibilities for the bus-phobic.

 

[47802]

Well I remember traveling from Cleckheaton to Bradford as a child and it would be nice to have that line back, Bradford - Dewsbury - Leeds would make more sense than Huddersfield, the vast majority of people who live in that area are more likely to commute to Leeds or Bradford, plus you could change at Dewsbury for Huddersfield and beyond, however its all a bit of pipe dream really.

 

[JohnB57]

What land space is available for the Bradford Curve that is shown next to the river and is there any risk of flooding there ?

The narrow strip alongside the north bank is small business yards now according to aerial views. One possibly scrap, another haulage. The link looks like it would be mostly raised well above the river level.

The problem here is not so much the river, which already has a flood alleviation channel to protect the Thornhill Road area lying within the tight bend of the Calder.

Ignoring the relocation of a major recycling business, the bigger civil engineering problems are vertical. Coming south off of the Bradford/Greenway line, the track would have to climb briefly to allow sufficient clearance over Huddersfield Road, which is climbing at that point, before dropping into a short cutting to join the Dewsbury line below the end of Mavis Avenue. Difficult and very expensive for such a short chord.

A far neater solution would be a Ravensthorpe Parkway/Interchange, with an east to west curve from Bradford onto the Healey Mills line, accessing both the Huddersfield/Manchester and Wakefield directions with a change for Leeds and the north east.

As observed earlier, highly unlikely in either guise.

 

[MarkyT]

Here's an interesting article from the Spenborough Guardian in 2003.

http://www.spenboroughguardian.co.uk/news/local/old-spen-rail-line-could-be-reopened-1-1428930

This points out that the old route doesn't go where many people want to - Leeds, and suggests the curve towards Dewsbury, although notes its expense.

Reviewing the whole Spen Valley route on the aerial photo websites, the first thing that stands out is how much of the route remains. It is almost entirely complete, and devoid of original level crossings in the main part*. Its partial use until 1981 as a freight branch clearly preserved the route's right of way, and adoption as a Sustrans trail has largely continued this protection. However a site immediately to the east of the old Heckmondwike Central station has been developed for housing, with a new access road crossing the formation on the level. Whilst sufficient room has been retained alongside the trail for a single track, a new rail underpass to cross the access road would be impossible due to the proximity of the Station Lane underbridge, and a rail overpass would be totally unnacceptable to residents in the new development, which 'faces' onto the green-way trail, and elsewhere nearby due to visual intrusion. Therefore the only likely rail solution appropriate for this corridor now would be 'light', where new level crossings can be tolerated, and the whole system is more 'human scale'. It is unfortunate that one very recent development like this can potentially kill off an entire route for reopening and I wonder how planning can allow it. However help might be at hand in the form of tram-train technology. With this, light rail branches, less segregated from surrounding settlement than traditional heavy rail could be plugged in to the main line rail network. Of course this means the route would be of no use for any wider scale diversions of freight or longer distance heavy rail services, but it could get a high quality frequent service running into both Leeds and Bradford, with the intriguing possibility of further affordable extensions at either end. Tram-train technology, with high floor vehicles and platforms to suit existing stops on the main line could offer an excellent solution for the Spen Valley.

* there's one vehicular I found - Carr Lane at Dewsbury Moor about half way between Ravensthorpe and Heckmondwike.

 

[tbtc]

It‘s all very well having these things as a nice to have, but we‘re at the point where this cost is actually preventing stations from being opened.

These "good reasons" are not a good reason to not have a station there in the first place.

The other issue is that without having a rudimentary halt to prove the numbers in the first place, it may never be possible to justify an all singing and all dancing expensive statipn of the type specified today.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Presumably if these regulations are such a good idea, do you think it would have been worth having them in the 80‘s, and would the many stations in West Yorkshire that would never have been opened at that time as a consequence have been a price worth paying for these regulations ?

Hindsight is marvellous. With it, we'd have had no inaccessible buildings, no shoddy short term things. No asbestos (etc), nothing with bad pollution, no "Death Trap" buildings, no smoking on the London Underground...

...but, as the cliche goes, we are where we are, and we'd have to build any new stations to modern design requirements.

 

[AndyHudds]

The problem here is not so much the river, which already has a flood alleviation channel to protect the Thornhill Road area lying within the tight bend of the Calder.

Ignoring the relocation of a major recycling business, the bigger civil engineering problems are vertical. Coming south off of the Bradford/Greenway line, the track would have to climb briefly to allow sufficient clearance over Huddersfield Road, which is climbing at that point, before dropping into a short cutting to join the Dewsbury line below the end of Mavis Avenue. Difficult and very expensive for such a short chord.

A far neater solution would be a Ravensthorpe Parkway/Interchange, with an east to west curve from Bradford onto the Healey Mills line, accessing both the Huddersfield/Manchester and Wakefield directions with a change for Leeds and the north east.

As observed earlier, highly unlikely in either guise.

This would be a more cost effective solution, build some platforms on the Wakefield Line,a large car park, even ask Grand Central to get their London service to call there instead of Mirfield. It could even spark some business development around the station. Make it some kind of interchange junction.

 

[JohnB57]

This would be a more cost effective solution, build some platforms on the Wakefield Line,a large car park, even ask Grand Central to get their London service to call their. It could even spark some business development around the station. Make it some kind of interchange junction.

In the absence of interchange facilities and space for additional parking in Mirfield, that was my thinking. However...

...a site immediately to the east of the old Heckmondwike Central station has been developed for housing, with a new access road crossing the formation on the level. Whilst sufficient room has been retained alongside the trail for a single track, a new rail underpass to cross the access road would be impossible due to the proximity of the Station Lane underbridge, and a rail overpass would be totally unacceptable to residents in the new development, which 'faces' onto the green-way trail, and elsewhere nearby due to visual intrusion.

And that seems to me to bu**er up any prospect of the line reopening at all, full stop. I can't imagine CPOs being popular or affordable. Another dream shattered Andy?

 

[MarkyT]

This would be a more cost effective solution, build some platforms on the Wakefield Line,a large car park, even ask Grand Central to get their London service to call their. It could even spark some business development around the station. Make it some kind of interchange junction.

That could be quite expensive in itself with new access roads, car parks etc, although as you say perhaps at least partially paid for by development on nearby land opened up. Stopping patterns could be a contentious issue though: with 2 major stations so close would express stops at Dewsbury be exchanged for calls at the new interchange leaving Dewsbury as a local call only? I still think a Leeds service would be a better proposition commercially especially with the call at WRSC en route. I have added an alternative much tighter and hopefully cheaper light rail curve to my sketch (now V4) south of the river, for tram-train operation between the Spen Valley and Leeds, light rail being probably the only practical option for rail in the corridor now due to the housing development at Heckmondwike I described in my earlier post.

http://www.townend.me/files/dewsbury.pdf

 

[JohnB57]

The vast majority of people using Dewsbury and Mirfield for longer distance onward journeys don't walk to the station. They drive, get a lift, a taxi or a bus and that journey could easily be re-reouted. There is a need for an interchange or parkway type station in the area which Mirfield can not be adapted to and for which Dewsbury is misplaced. Ravensthorpe is ideally located and the area could use the redevelopment. Access is not a major problem and the range of possible destinations is wide.

I don't think this is something that will happen any time soon, but I'm afraid if the only option for the Heckmondwike line is tram-train, with all of its bespoke requirements and restrictions, it's a dead duck. I have worked in Batley, Dewsbury and Bradford, I lived in the Spen Valley for a long time and I know the area extremely well. What it does not need is a fourth rate compromise.

 

[HowardGWR]

The vast majority of people using Dewsbury and Mirfield for longer distance onward journeys don't walk to the station. They drive, get a lift, a taxi or a bus and that journey could easily be re-reouted. There is a need for an interchange or parkway type station in the area which Mirfield can not be adapted to and for which Dewsbury is misplaced. Ravensthorpe is ideally located and the area could use the redevelopment. Access is not a major problem and the range of possible destinations is wide.

I don't think this is something that will happen any time soon, but I'm afraid if the only option for the Heckmondwike line is tram-train, with all of its bespoke requirements and restrictions, it's a dead duck. I have worked in Batley, Dewsbury and Bradford, I lived in the Spen Valley for a long time and I know the area extremely well. What it does not need is a fourth rate compromise.

Surely, the suggested light rail implementations suggested here were not designed to cater for long distance pax but local trips to either Bradford, WRC or Leeds?

 

[CalderRail]

And that seems to me to bu**er up any prospect of the line reopening at all, full stop. I can't imagine CPOs being popular or affordable. Another dream shattered Andy?

Looking at the overview on google maps, It would seem a solution would be to have a new access road, either from Station Road at the west, or somewhere to the east.

 

[MarkyT]

Surely, the suggested light rail implementations suggested here were not designed to cater for long distance pax but local trips to either Bradford, WRC or Leeds?

And a light rail solution could allow some deviation from the original route, for instance a Heckmondwike town centre route like Oldham, perhaps using parts of the old LNWR route.

 

[JohnB57]

Surely, the suggested light rail implementations suggested here were not designed to cater for long distance pax but local trips to either Bradford, WRC or Leeds?

My two paragraphs related to two different things - the concept of a Ravensthorpe Parkway and the reinstatement of the Thornhill to Low Moor line respectively. Both should cater for short and medium distance journeys, but they're not co-dependant concepts.

A light rail system would fail to address the problem, if one in fact exists, as the area is not sufficiently populous. Leeds and Bradford bound commuters would have to switch mode at some point anyway, which would be far better done on the existing main lines at new or improved parkway facilities.

The White Rose Centre would be a useful stop for people who work there, but it would not attract shoppers in sufficient numbers - malls are designed largely around bulk shopping, which is incompatible with public transport. Take a trip to Meadowhall, which has massive car parks alongside a very efficient public transport interchange and notice how most shoppers arrive there.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Take a trip to Meadowhall, which has massive car parks alongside a very efficient public transport interchange and notice how most shoppers arrive there.

On the other side of the Pennines, the Trafford Centre has an extremely large size amount of surrounding land devoted by car parks where car boots perform a useful function in transferring purchased goods to which can be transported direct to the home of the purchasers without the need to carry heavy amounts on buses, trams and trains on a journey that will still require a need for the purchased goods to be carried from the transport disembarkation point to the home of the purchasers.

 

[JohnB57]

On the other side of the Pennines, the Trafford Centre has an extremely large size amount of surrounding land devoted by car parks where car boots perform a useful function in transferring purchased goods to which can be transported direct to the home of the purchasers without the need to carry heavy amounts on buses, trams and trains on a journey that will still require a need for the purchased goods to be carried from the transport disembarkation point to the home of the purchasers.

Fazakerley...

 

[MarkyT]

A light rail system would fail to address the problem, if one in fact exists, as the area is not sufficiently populous. Leeds and Bradford bound commuters would have to switch mode at some point anyway, which would be far better done on the existing main lines at new or improved parkway facilities.

I think you've missed the point of tram-train operation, which allows light rail services to also run on main lines shared with other heavy rail services, something achieved routinely at a number of European sites, and being piloted soon in Sheffield. Tyne and Wear metro over shared Network Rail track to Sunderland is analogous, using light-specification vehicles, although whilst being similar to high floor trams these lack road compliant lights, indicators and side skirts, their routes away from the shared Sunderland line being totally segregated.

The White Rose Centre would be a useful stop for people who work there, but it would not attract shoppers in sufficient numbers - malls are designed largely around bulk shopping, which is incompatible with public transport. Take a trip to Meadowhall, which has massive car parks alongside a very efficient public transport interchange and notice how most shoppers arrive there.

White Rose is already quite a significant bus terminal, as are many large retail centres, and its role for purely bulk type shopping is surely diluted by small goods luxury end and clothing retailling, catering and future entertainment plans, There are nearby office complexes that could also benefit from rail commuting and business travel, and of course the substantial retail workforce these retail centres require. Large multipurpose centres can also provide interchange between the diverse frequent public transport links that do or could serve them, and can offer useful kiss'n'ride and shop'n'pickup functionality to all of these. All day commuter parking could be a problem but here a station developer could finance expansion or multidecking existing facilities which might be easier than providing entirely new car parks elsewhere.

 

[JohnB57]

I think you've missed the point of tram-train operation, which allows light rail services to also run on main lines shared with other heavy rail services, something achieved routinely at a number of European sites, and being piloted soon in Sheffield. Tyne and Wear metro over shared Network Rail track to Sunderland is analogous, using light-specification vehicles, although whilst being similar to high floor trams these lack road compliant lights, indicators and side skirts, their routes away from the shared Sunderland line being totally segregated.



White Rose is already quite a significant bus terminal, as are many large retail centres, and its role for purely bulk type shopping is surely diluted by small goods luxury end and clothing retailling, catering and future entertainment plans, There are nearby office complexes that could also benefit from rail commuting and business travel, and of course the substantial retail workforce these retail centres require. Large multipurpose centres can also provide interchange between the diverse frequent public transport links that do or could serve them, and can offer useful kiss'n'ride and shop'n'pickup functionality to all of these. All day commuter parking could be a problem but here a station developer could finance expansion or multidecking existing facilities which might be easier than providing entirely new car parks elsewhere.

I hadn't missed the point of light rail, but it is completely incompatible with a busy heavy rail route such as Dewsbury - Leeds, it would require its own stock and it would serve only a relatively lightly populated area. People wouldn't use it as there are better alternatives, including current bus services and interchange at the planned Low Moor park and ride.

And I'm afraid you can pontificate about the White Rose - which certainly is not a "significant bus terminal" - until you're blue in the face. I actually know the place well and I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of shoppers arrive and even with rail access, would continue to arrive by car, just as they do at Meadowhall and Trafford. That's what those places are designed for.

I would respectfully suggest that you apply some of your undoubted design talents towards schemes that are user-friendly and allow easy interchange rather than taking the view that rail can be a stand-alone solution. It hardly ever is.

 

[MarkyT]

I hadn't missed the point of light rail, but it is completely incompatible with a busy heavy rail route such as Dewsbury - Leeds, it would require its own stock and it would serve only a relatively lightly populated area. People wouldn't use it as there are better alternatives, including current bus services and interchange at the planned Low Moor park and ride.

I did not mean to be impolite in any way with my previous comment, however you seem to believe that light tram train vehicles can never be as attractive to users as heavy rail trains under any circumstances. I am afraid we might have to agree to disagree on that and I would counter that a pacer unit is little different to a Tyne and Wear light metro one in size and interior fit-out, and either can be multipled to meet demand on busy services.

And I'm afraid you can pontificate about the White Rose - which certainly is not a "significant bus terminal" - until you're blue in the face. I actually know the place well and I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of shoppers arrive and even with rail access, would continue to arrive by car, just as they do at Meadowhall and Trafford. That's what those places are designed for.

But equally that MAY change to some extent if alternatives were provided. For such a large centre even quite a small modal shift could be significant for rail and the interchange argument there could still hold water. The Metro bus map for the area suggests up to 14 separate route numbers call at WRSC.

I would respectfully suggest that you apply some of your undoubted design talents towards schemes that are user-friendly and allow easy interchange rather than taking the view that rail can be a stand-alone solution. It hardly ever is.

Thanks for the compliment. To be honest it was mostly an exercise in what might be possible to amuse myself over the otherwise quiet christmas period, and as it turned out, to promote the idea of tram-trains, something I do support. A network, with separate stock of course, has to start somewhere. Far be it from me, a southerner, to try and influence Yorkshire affairs however!

 

[Grumpy]

But equally that MAY change to some extent if alternatives were provided. For such a large centre even quite a small modal shift could be significant for rail and the interchange argument there could still hold water. The Metro bus map for the area suggests up to 14 separate route numbers call at WRSC.



QUOTE]

You're absolutely right. 13 million visitors pa, 4 thousand employees and an adjacent office park employing thousands more with the surrounding roads badly congested. I don't think you would expect people to use the train to take away 50 inch TV's-but then they don't at Meadowhall rail station and that has over 2m users pa which is only a small fragment of the total shoppers there-attract a similar small fragment at WRC and you soon recover the money from investing in a rail halt.

 

[AndyHudds]

Aside from the electrification project of the trans pennine route, I'm slightly worried at the lack of 'projects and improvements' in the West Yorkshire area, ideas have suggested in this thread ie the re-opening of the Spen route with curves in the Leeds and Huddersfield directions with a Parkway station at Ravensthorpe, however as much as this is wishful thinking, it does have merits as an idea but there seems to be very little else happening.

Calderdale Council seem to be desperate for a station at Elland, but that seems to be stalling, Low Moor has been progressing so slowly its untrue, East Leeds Parkway,what's happening with that? A station at Ossett was suggested in the Connecting Communites report but nothing seems to have been looked into on that matter. Although, granted, the new station entrance at Leeds is happening and two new stations have been mooted at Kirkstall Forge and,the other one escapes me, but if they drag out like Low Moor has, it could be yonks before they are ready.

Does Metro have no aspirations, plans or desires for the West Yorkshire train network?

 

[BantamMenace]

I'd like to see the next holder of the northern franchise push for several new stations, including all those mentioned above,as well as increased electrification of the West Yorkshire commuter flows using the Airedale and wharfedale lines as an example of how prosperous these lines can be

 

[tbtc]

Does Metro have no aspirations, plans or desires for the West Yorkshire train network?

They may seem to have no aspirations, plans or desires to you, but plenty of people elsewhere in the UK would be envious of what's been achieved in West Yorkshire in recent years.

Grass is always greener.

 

[AndyHudds]

They may seem to have no aspirations, plans or desires to you, but plenty of people elsewhere in the UK would be envious of what's been achieved in West Yorkshire in recent years.

Grass is always greener.

You can't stand still though, things can always be improved and made better. If you stand still you stagnate and eventually wither and die!!

 

[tbtc]

You can't stand still though, things can always be improved and made better. If you stand still you stagnate and eventually wither and die!!

Are things stagnating?

We've got electrification of Leeds - York, Leeds - Selby, Leeds - Huddersfield - Manchester etc to look forward to, there's talk of new stations (Kirkstall etc), there's suggestion of electrification from Leeds to Harrogate, there's been a large amount of money recently spend upgrading Wakefield Westgate (plus HS2 in the far distance)...

...people elsewhere in the UK would be delighted to have that kind of "stagnation".

 

[AndyHudds]

Its not just about electrification, I'd like to see higher frequency services on some local routes and the introduction new services, maybe a Wakefield to Manchester service either via Huddersfield, extending the Manchester stopper onto Wakefield or via the Calder Valley route through Brighouse. Although I know rolling stock issues are prominent at the minute.

Agreed, there has been some decent developments, but it doesn't mean there can't be more. West Yorkshire is a large conurbation with 3 cities and 2 large town plus countless little satellite towns, it seems the smaller projects that are needed are forgotten about at times.