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Low Adhesion

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Northerner

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Well the slip and slide season is almost upon us, I am indeed booked on my low adhesion training this week, one wonders if anything can be really done to combat this problem, I know we have the RHTT but they can't be everywhere ?
 
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michael769

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Driving skills are the best weapon against the problem.

It is not just leaves which cause poor adhesion. On my commute there are a couple of locations (Kingsnowe LC and Livingston South Station) where there are quite obvious issues with adhesion and slip in cold and wet weather - let alone during leaf fall. So even if they defoliated anywhere within a mile of a railway line drivers would still have to be able to cope with difficult conditions.

At the end of day conditions change from minute to minute and there is only one thing that can identify the current conditions and deal with them and that is the driver.

I guess they could fit racks ;)
 

asylumxl

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Hiding in your shadow
Only so much that can be done to reduce adhesion. Unfortunately even if there is no foliage an area can be prone to poor adhesion, as stated by another poster. Just south of Harpenden is an example on my local line. Even a light drizzle of rain can cause problems, being worse than heavy rain as far as I'm aware.

Besides the use of the RHTT and cutting back foliage, all that can be done is the altering of driving style, the use of WSP and the use of sanding.
 

jopsuk

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All lines to be put in tunnels? Would end snow/ice problems as well!
 

CarltonA

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I saw the aftermath of the November 94 incident at Slough when a 165 slid for 1200yds into the buffers at platform six. Apparently it slowed from 56 to 30mph before hitting the stops and would have continued for another 900yds if not rudely interrupted. The driver was absolved of blame at the time. All down to poor adhesion.
 

jopsuk

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Apart from icicles hanging down from the roof of the tunnel.........

Nah. If it's continuously enclosed, and especially if the tunnels are bored, not cut and cover, I reckon the system could before too long all be as "toasty" as the deep tube lines of the London Underground
 

starrymarkb

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Wasn't there also a 450 that slid through Surbiton with the speedo reading zero, nearly took out a 455 IIRC
 

Northerner

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We were indeed discussing the 1994 incident today . When the turbo was introduced it wasn't equipped with sanding brakes, although many drivers and managers spoke of the need for sand ! As this was one of the first trains with disc brakes
 

Cherry_Picker

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I don't think it can be understated how big a difference water jetting improved sanding equipment have made. I recall in the 90s being on trains which could barely move because of a contaminated railhead (pulling away from stations is just as difficult as stopping at them when the track is very slippery) but those problems have gone from being commonplace to being very unusual in the past decade or so.
 

David Barrett

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9 Mar 2013
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I do think that, whilst there have always been certian known low adhesion spots under certian conditions, the epidemic levels reached during the 1990s were very much a product of the modern railway.

Back in the early days of H.S.T. operation I recall a discussion which took place over poor adhesion on the power cars largely put down to disc braking where, in the absence of tread brakes, there was nothing to scrub and condition the wheels leading to both a build up of crud on the one hand and a more polished surface on the other.

A further point was raised later during the "Wrong kind of snow/leaves on the line" era when it was decided to do something about the actual rail conditions, hence "Sandite" etc. but what was mentioned about this was, like the brake block/wheel surface issue above, the idea that modern bogie design was also related to the phenomenon. As hunting (yaw) is now largely damped out there is limitation of the tendency of the wheelset to oscilate from side to side and it was this movement which assisted in the conditioning of the rail surface.

Hunting cleaned the rails and blocks cleaned the wheels it would seem. I would have thought that the lineside environment would have become ever more important because of this but the reverse appears to be the case. I did also think that sanding gear for D.M.U.s would have been a good idea but, at the time, there was talk of a "One shot only" type canister for poor adhesion problems although this would have been no good if needed more than once between depot visits. Ultimately, it seems that some D.M.U.s have been provided with sanding equipment although it was thought of many years ago; I once saw some drawings of the original Derby Lightweight Units whose bogies were shown with sanding gear!

Disc braking and smooth riding bogies are, of course, here for the duration so I would suggest that a well tended lineside coupled with universal sanding provision and a more limited rail head treatment programme in the true blackspots might just finally bottom the problem.

Then somebody mentions cost, the meeting is adjourned until April and so ad infinitum.
 

HSTEd

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14 Jul 2011
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20,318
Well the slip and slide season is almost upon us, I am indeed booked on my low adhesion training this week, one wonders if anything can be really done to combat this problem, I know we have the RHTT but they can't be everywhere ?

Construction of a new network of Shinkansen lines in all directions, with large parts of the network enclosed in bored tunnels or elevated above nearby foliage.

And yes, one of my stock answers is indeed to construct Shinkansen
 

DarloRich

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12 Oct 2010
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Fenny Stratford
Driving skills are the best weapon against the problem.

It is not just leaves which cause poor adhesion. On my commute there are a couple of locations (Kingsnowe LC and Livingston South Station) where there are quite obvious issues with adhesion and slip in cold and wet weather - let alone during leaf fall. So even if they defoliated anywhere within a mile of a railway line drivers would still have to be able to cope with difficult conditions.

At the end of day conditions change from minute to minute and there is only one thing that can identify the current conditions and deal with them and that is the driver.

I guess they could fit racks ;)

So nothing to do with the water cannon trains then? I would say they have made the biggest difference in combating this problem.

As the tress can’t easily be removed this issue won’t go away.
 

455driver

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10 May 2010
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11,329
Water jetting when done correctly is excellent at cleaning the railhead.
 

AndyPJG

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29 Jun 2012
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543
Holy crap! It passed the first red at 85mph and was hardly braking WITH WSP.

Not quite, it passed a YY at 85mph, the Y at 80mph, the first R at 70mph and the second R at 40mph. Still a hairy moment (well, 112 seconds!) .
 
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