Love Towards Class 455?

[Callum J]

I commute Wimbledon-Clapham Junction-Victoria every day and afraid to say I am not a fan of the 455s. As has been mentioned, unbearably hot in summer, and they just feel old and uncomfortable. If I commuted regularly to further flung destinations such as Dorking I think I wouldn't be too happy about the lack of loo provision. The Victoria-Clapham Junction leg of my commute feels like another universe. The 377s are comfy, modern and usually longer than 8 coaches! I really wish SWT would move towards a common fleet type of 450s (or a variation thereof) across their whole network. Surely it would keep training and maintenance costs down ... or with the prospect of Crossrail 2 has SWT decided there isn't going to be any investment in new stock for the metro lines via Wimbledon?

Another thing I dislike about the 455s is when the floors get slippery in the wet weather. A couple of times I've seen people almost slip between the train and the platform when alighting at Clapham Junction. In the interests of safety they really need to introduce some carpeting in the vestibule areas on those 455s.

 

[WarrenTManager]

317722 https://flic.kr/p/o65qFe
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Knew that it seems the most common in service fault is with doors, while motor faults prevent units from leaving depot. The motors are meant to be ancient and from the Class 405 "4SUB" units aren't they? I know the 442s always get mentioned for old worn out motors but surely the same applies to these? (Although the fitting of new motors does suggest that :P)

None of the short forms have been down to motors. They are being changed to AC as they require less maintenance and will be able to use regenerative braking.

Motors can always have new armatures, if someone wants to spend the money. With the 442 and no definite use in the future that expenditure cannot be justified.

 

[al.currie93]

I commute Wimbledon-Clapham Junction-Victoria every day and afraid to say I am not a fan of the 455s. As has been mentioned, unbearably hot in summer, and they just feel old and uncomfortable. If I commuted regularly to further flung destinations such as Dorking I think I wouldn't be too happy about the lack of loo provision.

Fair enough opinion

I do actually commute from Dorking to London Waterloo everyday, and I have never worried about the lack of toilet and still love the units, but that's just me I guess a loved train can never do any wrong to they who love it

To anyone who may drive them, what are they like to drive compared to other units?

 

[hassaanhc]

None of the short forms have been down to motors. They are being changed to AC as they require less maintenance and will be able to use regenerative braking.

Motors can always have new armatures, if someone wants to spend the money. With the 442 and no definite use in the future that expenditure cannot be justified.

Hmm, thanks for the correction, only going by what I remember mentioned on Twitter updates ("camshaft" and the like)

 

[Pumbaa]

Your memory does not deceive you, there were a number of units out of traffic over a period of time with camshaft issues following refurb. But these shortages were persistent and predictable.

It's only in the last couple of weeks for the first time since Christmas and the poor weather that there's been consistently enough 455s to meet the daily allocation.

 

[Techniquest]

I only started to properly appreciate the 455s, as others have mentioned, post-refurbishment. They were dreadful to travel on before that, although that was done a good few ago getting now IIRC, but they still feel decent to ride on. SWT's lot are definitely a lot better than Southern's, although that said after a fair bit of time spent on Southern's 455/8s earlier this year they aren't too bad still.

I'm not entirely sure when I first accepting 455s as most acceptable to travel on, although if I was to guess it would have been after a most enjoyable round of Box Machine Bingo with heart-of-wessex ages ago. Not that I've done a massive amount of 455 cranking on SWT metals since then mind, really need to do so but with so much to do in London, it's difficult to fit much of anything in on a day trip! That said, I'm getting closer now to putting more focus on SWT stuff, having finished with all need of using the GOBLIN line recently (see my trip report thread for details).

The mention of the fitment of AC motors to the 455s has reminded me, does this mean the 455s will be getting re-numbered?

The refurb of 317722 mentioned earlier in the thread looks brilliant, looking forward to trying that out myself next time I'm down that way. Definitely about time that trial refurb 317 was out in passenger service! As for 317 vs 455, I do enjoy 317s more I would say, but that's probably down to spending a lot of time at Tottenham Hale a few years ago, as well as the fact it's under the wires and I love the noise EMUs running on AC make more than the noise DC EMUs make!

So yeah, I like the 455s!

 

[O L Leigh]

I got a sneaky look inside the refurbished half of 317722 while it was stabled at Stansted Airport at the weekend and I can assure you that the new interior is NOT suitable for outer-suburban work.

The seats are awful; thin, hard and impossibly upright and make the standard Cl379 seats seem luxurious. It would also appear that the space is given over more to standing passengers. Note that the draught screens by the doors have gone, the number of seat bays in the centre of the vehicle have been reduced from three to two and a half and the increased number of handrails. The seating layout may now be 2+2 but the seat width is no wider than the original 3+2 seats. There is no question that this is a metro style interior.

**EDIT**

As to the original question, I'm still baffled why the Cl455s are held in such high regard compared to other similar units and I've not read anything so far that explains it. Compared to other inner-suburban units such as Cl315s they have performed no better and no worse and lasted no longer. Compared to the similar Cl317s they are slower, have worse seats (both in their original and refurbished form) and you can't even walk between units working in multiple. 317722 is not a step forward but rather brings the Cl317 interior down (not up) to the same standards as the refurbished Cl455s.

Yes they are good units that have given good service the network and those who rely on them. But the hullabulloo does seem quite out of proportion.

O L Leigh

 

[TEW]

It would probably be a good interior for the Chingford runs. But of course they're going to replaced on Chingford services in the near future once London Overground take over. The 321 demonstrator also has 2 carriages with what is very much a Metro interior. It's not an interior which suits either 317s or 321s though, they're both outer surburban trains where the aim should be to seat more passengers not to crush load the trains with standees. The SWT 455 interior works well because of the need to carry large numbers of people in the peaks over the relatively short section from Wimbledon-Waterloo. It isn't really designed for comfort on long journeys.

 

[Techniquest]

There's nowt wrong with 315s either, it's another class I've spent a lot of time on earlier this year and on previous trips along the GEML. Sadly the 315s suffer the same problem the 455s used to, the interior. Those low-backed seats are really irritating!

As to why 315s get virtually no attention compared to the 455s, I'm not sure. Could be down to the simple fact 455s cover a much larger area than the 315s, although it's just as likely that the 455s work for SWT, one of those TOCs that get a lot of attention it seems.

313s are another class of workhorses, but they get virtually no attention from what I see normally. Same for 507s and 508s, although with recent discussion on replacing the fleet their profile in the enthusiast world has raised up a fair bit lately.

How about north of the border? 314s and 318s don't get much attention either, or the 320s.

It doesn't take long, when flicking through my trip reports, that I've covered many of the above-mentioned classes in recent months. I really need to get back up north of the border and get some more 314 and 318 action in, it's been way too long since I had a 314!

 

[physics34]

It's a bit like EPBs. I used to love them even though there was nothing much about them to love. I suppose it's just familiarity. 455s are pretty good...we've probably got them for another 10 years.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There's nowt wrong with 315s either, it's another class I've spent a lot of time on earlier this year and on previous trips along the GEML. Sadly the 315s suffer the same problem the 455s used to, the interior. Those low-backed seats are really irritating!

As to why 315s get virtually no attention compared to the 455s, I'm not sure. Could be down to the simple fact 455s cover a much larger area than the 315s, although it's just as likely that the 455s work for SWT, one of those TOCs that get a lot of attention it seems.

313s are another class of workhorses, but they get virtually no attention from what I see normally. Same for 507s and 508s, although with recent discussion on replacing the fleet their profile in the enthusiast world has raised up a fair bit lately.

How about north of the border? 314s and 318s don't get much attention either, or the 320s.

It doesn't take long, when flicking through my trip reports, that I've covered many of the above-mentioned classes in recent months. I really need to get back up north of the border and get some more 314 and 318 action in, it's been way too long since I had a 314!

I just recently had my first visit to Glasgow, and I have to say I was hugely impressed with the standard of the interior of both 318s and 320s. The only downside of 318s is the horrible 'new' front end!

314s and 315s are generally frowned upon more so than their 'PEP'-based sisters, the 313/507/508s, simply because they haven't been updated to the same standards. 315s are horrible as they still have those terrible seats that made the 455s so unpopular pre-refurb. 314s are the same of course, but the arrangement of seats (with singles next to the vestibules) seemed to be well planned at least.

 

[Drsatan]

I just recently had my first visit to Glasgow, and I have to say I was hugely impressed with the standard of the interior of both 318s and 320s. The only downside of 318s is the horrible 'new' front end!

314s and 315s are generally frowned upon more so than their 'PEP'-based sisters, the 313/507/508s, simply because they haven't been updated to the same standards. 315s are horrible as they still have those terrible seats that made the 455s so unpopular pre-refurb. 314s are the same of course, but the arrangement of seats (with singles next to the vestibules) seemed to be well planned at least.

Indeed, the refurbishment of the 318s and 320s was carried out to a very high standard, showing that (potentially) a refurbished 317 or 455 can appear to be a new train to some passengers.

This was observed following the refurbishment of the A-stock units on London Underground, where some passengers told reporters they assumed the train was new. I also recall SWT's now defunct eMotion customer magazine carrying out a vox pop on a busy 455 that had just been refurbished; a few of the passengers were surprised the train they were on was 20 years old!

Hopefully the 455s will be able to last for another 10-15 years before withdrawal is announced.

 

[joeykins82]

Just stumbled across a very interesting nugget in an ATOC rolling stock strategy paper

The Class 455 fleet is structurally similar to the class 317 family of units. The successful interior reconfiguration of the SWT Class 455 units shows their potential. As with the Class 317 to 322 units, these are prime candidates for continued operation and re-tractioning. They could also be extended from 4-car to 5-car length with ex-Class 317 or 319 trailer cars.

Given the ongoing talk about shortening the Northern cascaded 319s to 3 cars, perhaps this is what's in mind for the surplus trailer cars?

 

[hassaanhc]

Just stumbled across a very interesting nugget in an ATOC rolling stock strategy paper

Given the ongoing talk about shortening the Northern cascaded 319s to 3 cars, perhaps this is what's in mind for the surplus trailer cars?

Only issue is using trailers might make the trains slower, unless more motors are installed somewhere. This is because having the total number of axles per unit increase from 16 to 20 but still only having 4 of those all on one car powering the whole unit. In a 10 coach train it means 8/40 powered, just a fifth. In comparison, using a 456 unit with the current 4 coach units produces 10/40 powered axles on a 10 coach train, still a quarter of axles powered.
(455 is 4/16 per unit, 456 is 2/8 per unit)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Only issue is using trailers might make the trains slower, unless more motors are installed somewhere. This is because having the total number of axles per unit increase from 16 to 20 but still only having 4 of those all on one car powering the whole unit. In a 10 coach train it means 8/40 powered, just a fifth. In comparison, using a 456 unit with the current 4 coach units produces 10/40 powered axles on a 10 coach train, still a quarter of axles powered.
(455 is 4/16 per unit, 456 is 2/8 per unit)

Though presumably this is less of an issue with the new traction package? Or at least would be when rail conditions are good...

 

[Emblematic]

Though presumably this is less of an issue with the new traction package? Or at least would be when rail conditions are good...

Or even if rail conditions are poor - AC motors give much better adhesion than DC, particularly a basic DC system as currently fitted to the 455s. Adhesion could be some 100% greater with AC motors, up to around 40% as opposed to 20% on DC. Also, the AC motors are smaller and lighter than DC, so the same size package could provide greater power as well as tractive effort. Whether it will do or not I have no idea - you would hope that the possibility of adding more carriages would have been considered, given the likelihood or Mk3 (or even PEP) trailers becoming available within the planned life of the upgrade and the aspiration for 10-car operation.

One thing I did wonder - will the new traction allow regeneration, and if so, how will the regenerative braking be blended in?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Or even if rail conditions are poor - AC motors give much better adhesion than DC, particularly a basic DC system as currently fitted to the 455s. Adhesion could be some 100% greater with AC motors, up to around 40% as opposed to 20% on DC. Also, the AC motors are smaller and lighter than DC, so the same size package could provide greater power as well as tractive effort. Whether it will do or not I have no idea - you would hope that the possibility of adding more carriages would have been considered, given the likelihood or Mk3 (or even PEP) trailers becoming available within the planned life of the upgrade and the aspiration for 10-car operation.

One thing I did wonder - will the new traction allow regeneration, and if so, how will the regenerative braking be blended in?

From what I've heard (though I'm only an enthusiast) I think regenerative brakes might well be part of the upgrade package.

Though as the new motors are lighter, could that also affect adhesion on 'autumn' rails- particularly if another unpowered car is added?

 

[Techniquest]

I just recently had my first visit to Glasgow, and I have to say I was hugely impressed with the standard of the interior of both 318s and 320s. The only downside of 318s is the horrible 'new' front end!

I have to concur, they are of a decent quality. I also quite like the noise generated by the 318s, it has to be said. I can't immediately recall what a 314 sounds like (it's been too long after all, which for one of my favourite classes of EMU is disgraceful), but I remember the last time I had one they were most enjoyable! 320s, yes it's a good noise but not quite the same, same issue with the 321s.

As for the front end of 318s, I dunno. I don't remember them looking terribly great before they changed it to be honest!

314s and 315s are generally frowned upon more so than their 'PEP'-based sisters, the 313/507/508s, simply because they haven't been updated to the same standards. 315s are horrible as they still have those terrible seats that made the 455s so unpopular pre-refurb. 314s are the same of course, but the arrangement of seats (with singles next to the vestibules) seemed to be well planned at least.

Fair point. Yes I do dislike the seats in 315s, but at the same time it's also got a really weird nostalgia factor going for it!

314s were, way back in 2005/2006, due to be withdrawn by the end of that year. Thankfully that hasn't happened yet, but I would imagine that should it have been planned back then that the 314s would be going for at least another 10 years, a rather proper refurbishment would have happened. Mind you, didn't it take until 2011 (or was it 2012?) to have their interior refurbishment? Still not been on one of those yet to see what it's like, but I do vaguely recall reading somewhere recently the withdrawal of the 314s is looming in the next few years.

 

[atwales]

I've got to be honest, from an enthusiast point of view, when bashing: the 455s are amazing..

The frequent services out of Waterloo to Vauxhall in simply a couple of minutes which are indefinitely double-sets provide a great opportunity to cop at least 4 sets in just 10 minutes if you catch the return journey from Vauxhall..

 

[Techniquest]

Aye it's very easy to score a lot of 455s pretty quickly doing Waterloo to Vauxhall or Vauxhall to Clapham Junction (quicker on the former mind), certainly I've scored a good few that way! It can be quite fun playing Box Machine Bingo, I've only done it once but it was most enjoyable

 

[Aictos]

It's amazing what a decent refurb can do to older rolling stock with Southern's Class 313 fleet and South West Trains Class 455 fleet making them look like new trains even though they aren't as to Class 317s, the best ones out and about in my humble view are the Class 317/6s with their similar layout to the Class 365 in fact personally speaking all Class 317s ought to be brought up to the same interior spec wise as the Class 317/6s but it will never happen.

 

[Keith Jarrett]

There does seem to be more love for them than say Class 317.

There's folk out there who rave about 317s. Personally, I am not a huge fan of the 455s, probably on account of them dominating the central and south west suburban networks. I have a particular dislike of 455/7s (the former 4FOE trailer looks odd to me) and Southern's 455s because the seats are simply surfboards covered in green AstroTurf. But I suspect that the underlying reason is that I have been on all of them many times over - there's only a couple that I have not cleared for 100 miles and some are approaching 500!