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Lothian group (Network/Route Speculation)

stevenedin

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Try to think of something original here, that i haven't suggested already above.. here we go!

52 (Balerno - Ocean Terminal)
Via Currie, Juniper Green, Colinton, Dreghorn, Swanston, Fairmilehead, Buckstone, Braids Hill, Liberton, Cameron Toll, Old Dalkeith Road, RIE, Milligan Drive, The Wisp, Fort Kinnaird, Brunstane, Eastfield, Joppa, Portobello, Craigentinny, Fillyside, Seafield, Salamander Street, The Shore
Every 60 minutes Monday - Saturday running late, and every 2 hours on Sundays.

it would interwork with this service

54 (Balerno - Ocean Terminal) [hear me out]
Via Currie, Juniper Green, Wester Hailes Road, Westside Plaza, Drumbryden Road, Longstone, Saughton Road North, Carrick Knowe, Corstorphine, St Johns Road, Clermiston Road, Blackhall, Crewe Toll, Ferry Road, North Junction Street.
Every 60 minutes Monday - Saturday running late, and every 2 hours on Sundays.

Two new cross city routes, i always prefered routes like the 18/21/32/38 so i wanted to take a shot of creating connections, this was an idea i had ages ago that i may of shared before (cant really remember), but i liked the 52 as it ticks off a few boxes that may/may not be popular.

52 Benefits
  • Connects Ocean Terminal Seafield with Portobello (might not be viable but its nice to have options)
  • Connects Portobello with Brunstane [Edinburgh College] (not really a connection anyone asked for but still handy)
  • Connects Brunstane with Fort Kinnaird
  • Provides the wisp with a regular bus service (again might not be viable but again, nice to have options and saves having to take another bus down greendykes)
  • Connects Old Dalkeith Road with Liberton Road
  • Provides a bus service for Braids Hills and connects Liberton with Buckstone (i know noone asked for this but it does have a road)
  • Connects Buckstone with Dreghorn

54 Benefits

  • Connects Balerno and Lanark Road with Wester Hailes easily
  • Gives Longstone a connection to Corstorphine
  • Provides a regular bus up Clerwood direction without having to actually run via Clermiston and Drum Brae South
  • Provides Ocean Terminal an alternative link to the west side of Edinburgh (Wester Hailes, Currie, Balerno)

In my original plan, the 54 was going to extend beyond Balerno to Livingston via Kirknewton, but i figured this way the buses could interwork easier.
I actually really like your ideas and feel like they would plug in a lot of gaps which stop people from taking the bus.

I do feel like in an idea world this would be great. I can't see them adding them but you never know :)
 
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Grumpyscot

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The direct one-bus link from The Pans, Musselburgh and Joppa was tried by First when footfall at Ocean Terminal was much higher and didn’t pay so I can’t see any prospect of it working in today’s economic climate. Also, what is there in Ballenceiff to sustain a commercial service?
With the new crematorium at Oldcraighall, I foresee fewer funerals at Seafield for East Lothian. But what is needed is a bus service from East Lothian to Oldcraighall - possibly via Shawfair to RIE
 

TheEastCoaster

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But what is needed is a bus service from East Lothian to Oldcraighall - possibly via Shawfair to RIE

Few options i could think of is.
  • Extend the 33 from Millerhill to QMU via Oldcraighall and Stoneybank or to Musselburgh Grammer direct via Stoneybank and the High Street.
  • Extend the 30 to Millerhill or Sherifhall P&R via Stoneybank and Oldcraighall after QMU.
  • Extend the 140/141 to Millerhill/Sherifhall P&R via same route above after Musselburgh Tesco.
or (and this is least likely)

  • Extend the 49 to Musselburgh via the same extension as the 33 above. (which would be a long way for a short cut)

If Lothian do decide to take a crack at it, i didn't think they would of tackled Millerhill a few years back but i think we can all agree crazier things have happened. :D (I'm eagerly awaiting someone to point out the 111 exists and already serves this route like we don't all live under a rock)


I actually really like your ideas and feel like they would plug in a lot of gaps which stop people from taking the bus.

I do feel like in an idea world this would be great. I can't see them adding them but you never know :)

Thank you for your comment! yes in an ideal world this would be a perfect route (and fun too) honestly it would just be nice to see a service bus run via Braids Hill as it has the prettiest views, but maybe thats just my fantasy indulging, i remember there was a tour bus back in 2018 that ran a very similar route via Seafield, Portobello, Cameron Toll, Braids Hills, Oxgangs and Lanark Road, which i think was the heavy inspiration!

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update
(i remember, it was the 20 days of summer tour)

Link to Leaflet
 

VioletEclipse

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Here you are then!
NEW Service 75 - Broxburn, East Mains <> Livingston, South Railway Station via Uphall, Dechmont, Bangour (when opened), Royston Hall, Deans South, Livingston North Railway Station, St. John's Hospital, Craigshill and Livingston Bus Terminal. Every 60 minutes.

My rationale is that it gives Deans and Craigshill a direct link to Broxburn, as well as linking Craigshill back to a train station. It also provides a every 30 minute link to Livingston South, if interested with the 9.

Now this one's slightly more far out but not impossible.

NEW Service X20 - Livingston, North Railway Station <> Livingston, South Railway Station Express Shuttle via Livingston, Bus Terminal and St. John's Hospital. Every 30 minutes.

Reasoning for this is it connects the north and south of Livingston and tests out the possibility of a 'Livingston Central' station. If well publicised I believe the route in turn will be well used, could even be increased to every 15/20 minutes if proves popular.
I love these, better bus connections between Livi Centre and the stations would be so good, as currently the connections are really quite bad.
I also agree that Bangour should get a dedicated new bus service. Opening a new housing estate without decent public transport connections just shouldn't happen in my opinion.

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.I would revised the following:

72: Current route from Broxburn to Whitburn - Fauldhouse
72H: Current route from Broxburn to Whitburn - Harthill Via heartlands
Both Hourly, with 30min head on common section.
Harthill would make sense, however I doubt we'll see Lothian venturing into Lanarkshire with a regular bus service anytime soon.

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Try to think of something original here, that i haven't suggested already above.. here we go!

52 (Balerno - Ocean Terminal)
Via Currie, Juniper Green, Colinton, Dreghorn, Swanston, Fairmilehead, Buckstone, Braids Hill, Liberton, Cameron Toll, Old Dalkeith Road, RIE, Milligan Drive, The Wisp, Fort Kinnaird, Brunstane, Eastfield, Joppa, Portobello, Craigentinny, Fillyside, Seafield, Salamander Street, The Shore
Every 60 minutes Monday - Saturday running late, and every 2 hours on Sundays.

it would interwork with this service

54 (Balerno - Ocean Terminal) [hear me out]
Via Currie, Juniper Green, Wester Hailes Road, Westside Plaza, Drumbryden Road, Longstone, Saughton Road North, Carrick Knowe, Corstorphine, St Johns Road, Clermiston Road, Blackhall, Crewe Toll, Ferry Road, North Junction Street.
Every 60 minutes Monday - Saturday running late, and every 2 hours on Sundays.

Two new cross city routes, i always prefered routes like the 18/21/32/38 so i wanted to take a shot of creating connections, this was an idea i had ages ago that i may of shared before (cant really remember), but i liked the 52 as it ticks off a few boxes that may/may not be popular.

52 Benefits
  • Connects Ocean Terminal Seafield with Portobello (might not be viable but its nice to have options)
  • Connects Portobello with Brunstane [Edinburgh College] (not really a connection anyone asked for but still handy)
  • Connects Brunstane with Fort Kinnaird
  • Provides the wisp with a regular bus service (again might not be viable but again, nice to have options and saves having to take another bus down greendykes)
  • Connects Old Dalkeith Road with Liberton Road
  • Provides a bus service for Braids Hills and connects Liberton with Buckstone (i know noone asked for this but it does have a road)
  • Connects Buckstone with Dreghorn

54 Benefits

  • Connects Balerno and Lanark Road with Wester Hailes easily
  • Gives Longstone a connection to Corstorphine
  • Provides a regular bus up Clerwood direction without having to actually run via Clermiston and Drum Brae South
  • Provides Ocean Terminal an alternative link to the west side of Edinburgh (Wester Hailes, Currie, Balerno)

In my original plan, the 54 was going to extend beyond Balerno to Livingston via Kirknewton, but i figured this way the buses could interwork easier.
Honestly I really like these, these make a lot of connections which aren't really served well these days.

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I wouldn't say it was an obsession per-say, it's more of a convenience terminus point for connections, plus Ocean Terminal is expanding more and more with the bowling alley incoming and it has the cinema and restaurants, it's still got some merit.
I would also say that Ocean Terminal has a tram connection, new housing, and actually has quite a bit of spare layover capacity, unlike some other termini.

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Thank you for your comment! yes in an ideal world this would be a perfect route (and fun too) honestly it would just be nice to see a service bus run via Braids Hill as it has the prettiest views, but maybe thats just my fantasy indulging, i remember there was a tour bus back in 2018 that ran a very similar route via Seafield, Portobello, Cameron Toll, Braids Hills, Oxgangs and Lanark Road, which i think was the heavy inspiration!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

update
(i remember, it was the 20 days of summer tour)

Link to Leaflet
Oh I love it, the Braids are so pretty, and the quick connections a bus service could provide could make quite a difference! Wasn't expecting to see the 20 days of summer tour mentioned on here again! I think that orbital bus routes are much more valuable than they are often seen as, and I believe I used the Braids as a part of a bunch of ideas for orbital services which I came up with years ago and posted here a while back.
 
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FlybeDash8Q400

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I'm eagerly awaiting someone to point out the 111 exists and already serves this route like we don't all live under a rock
I will point something out, nothing to do with 111. But the bridge that carries the East Coast Mainline over the B6415 is just a tad too low for deckers. It can take low height vehicles but full height literally just fail. The maximum clearance stated is acceptable for full height, but you won’t see a decker going that way just incase there’s any problems due to it being essentially on the maximum. After Fauldhouse any potential risks such as this are understandably avoided.

If you’re going to extend a service to cover it, just use the A1 via QMU and Old Craighall Roundabout. I wouldn’t consider using the 30.
 

TheEastCoaster

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I will point something out, nothing to do with 111. But the bridge that carries the East Coast Mainline over the B6415 is just a tad too low for deckers. It can take low height vehicles but full height literally just fail. The maximum clearance stated is acceptable for full height, but you won’t see a decker going that way just incase there’s any problems due to it being essentially on the maximum. After Fauldhouse any potential risks such as this are understandably avoided.

If you’re going to extend a service to cover it, just use the A1 via QMU and Old Craighall Roundabout. I wouldn’t consider using the 30.

That is understandable, the fauldhouse situation was tragic, but the fact it happened twice also is baffling.

Tbh, i had a feeling there was a low bridge somewhere, i didn't think it was under the A1, but i forgot about the rail bridge, routing it via the A1 makes more sense (for a double decker route anyway).
 

NorthClyde320

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Does the 113 need a 30 min frequency between Tranent and Pencaitland? My suggestion being to split the route at Tranent and reroute 1 bus p/h to Haddington as 106, so both the 106 & 113 are hourly but combining between City and Tranent every 30 mins, if resources allow extend it back to the Western General. If East Coast still wish an East Lothian to Fort Kinnaird link then this could be numbered 108 (yes that would not go down well with Prentice I imagine)?

Also rerouting the X4 via West Loan, top pans to Levenhall Rbt, Haddington Rd to Wallyford & the A1? The X4 seems one of those difficult routes to get right.
 

overthewater

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Does the 113 need a 30 min frequency between Tranent and Pencaitland? My suggestion being to split the route at Tranent and reroute 1 bus p/h to Haddington as 106, so both the 106 & 113 are hourly but combining between City and Tranent every 30 mins, if resources allow extend it back to the Western General. If East Coast still wish an East Lothian to Fort Kinnaird link then this could be numbered 108 (yes that would not go down well with Prentice I imagine)?

If I remember correctly, when first operated the route it was hourly. It only become 30min ahead way when Lothian won the Evening and Sunday tender. Then they extend the 44 to Tranent, so the maj of the passengers travel on that service. Since 2016? they have forced all the passengers on to 113 but the X4 does a slightly faster job now. So could be spilt in two.
 

overthewater

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Hear me out on this one:

Revise the no140/141: Penicuik - Dalkeith as normal route right now, then follow the No48 route, between Dalkeith and muss.
No48 goes back to every 30mins
No44 extend wallyford buses to whitcraig and Dalkieth.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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Hear me out on this one:

Revise the no140/141: Penicuik - Dalkeith as normal route right now, then follow the No48 route, between Dalkeith and muss.
No48 goes back to every 30mins
No44 extend wallyford buses to whitcraig and Dalkieth.
On one hand a good idea, but reducing the 140/141 to single deckers is probably a no go. The extension of the 44 seems excessive in my opinion, while Dalkeith/Whitecraig to Musselburgh has been slowed down too much.
 

TheEastCoaster

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Had a few random ideas come into my head in regards to night buses, wanted to get them out here so i don't forget.

Revised Night Bus network

N17 - New Route (Airport - Ocean Terminal) follows same route at City 17, (01:30, 3:30) from Airport, and (00:40, 2:40) from Ocean Terminal.

N18 - Route and Timetable Revised, no longer runs Bathgate - Edinburgh, now follows City 18 route and runs under Lothian City, (00:40, 2:40) from the Airport and (00:50, 01:50) from Fort Kinnaird.
(For Broxburn to Bathgate bus link check revised N43)

18 - Revised Timetable, early journey from Kaimes Crossroad now starts at Fort Kinnaird at 02:40, and last journey from Airport now extends all the way to Fort Kinnaird on all days of the week.

N43 - Revised Route and Timetable - Weekend buses now extend from Winchburgh to Bathgate via former N18 route.
 

route101

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Do you reckon there is overnight demand on routes to and from the airport?
 

TheEastCoaster

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Absolutely no one in Broxburn, Uphall and Bathgate will be keen to be dragged via Queensferry, Kirkliston and Winchburgh after a night out in the town.

Well so far the residents of Broxburn and Uphall only have that option currently (for weekdays that is) I just thought it would be practical since the N18 is already taken by a weekend only service.

Do you reckon there is overnight demand on routes to and from the airport?

I can't imagine why not, especially for workers
 

overthewater

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One of the busiest period for that airport is 4am. I'm surprised Citylink 902 doesn't have a journey coming into the Airport for around that time
 

computerSaysNo

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I'm not sure if it is permitted to cut them at this time of year anyway as wildlife will likely be nesting in them.

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I've been thinking about what is currently the City network in East Lothian. The 26 goes along Links Road in Port Seton every 12 minutes but misses out a lot of the houses on Alder Road and Long Craigs. You've then got the Seton Sands holiday park which gets a very frequent, if slow, service west to Edinburgh but no service at all heading east towards the coastal villages and North Berwick.
I guess my questions, if anyone knows the answers, are 1: why is there such a frequent service along Links Road in Port Seton but no Edinburgh service near the houses at the south of the town (except for the X26)? Wouldn't it have been better, when the 26 was removed from Tranent, to have a branch taking the X26 route and terminating at the Alder Road roundabout? And 2: why are there no services from the tourist accommodation at Seton Sands to the touristy villages of Aberlady and Gullane and to North Berwick?
Following on from my comment in the main thread:
Current network issue 1: Cockenzie, Port Seton and Seton Sands Holiday Park currently have no fast bus to Edinburgh, only the slow 26. Parts of Cockenzie score in the lowest 50% and parts of Port Seton in the lowest 40% in terms of deprivation as measured across Scotland as a whole, meaning the number of people who would use and therefore benefit from a faster bus service to Edinburgh, a source of jobs, is relatively high. Further, Seton Sands, being a Holiday Park, is likely to have a high number of visitors unfamiliar with the locals roads who would also benefit from a faster direct service to Edinburgh which has a lot of tourist attractions.
Current network issue 2: Seton Sands Holiday Park has no bus service to the coastal touristy villages of Aberlady, Gullane and Dirleton, and to North Berwick. Holidaymakers wishing to visit these areas by public transport without a long walk must take the 26 to Levenhall and change there for a 124, significantly extending the journey time. It is likely that people then instead would prefer to drive which will worsen congestion and parking pressure in these villages during popular times.

My idea for a low-risk solution is to divert the X5 so that it operates via the B6371, Cockenzie Alder Road, Port Seton Craigs Road and then the coastal Links Road, instead of via the A198, Longniddry Main Street and Longniddry Lyars Road. This would take 1-2 minutes longer than the existing route running non-stop so would have to be timetabled slightly longer to account for stopping. This has the advantage of giving Cockenzie, Port Seton and Seton Sands a daytime fast service to Edinburgh, at times when the 26 is likely to be slowest; and giving Port Seton a bus link to Aberlady, Gullane, Dirleton and North Berwick. A secondary benefit is giving Cockenzie, Port Seton and Seton Sands a quick link to the large retail area at Edinburgh Milton Link which is also a short walk from the Fort Kinnaird retail park. The primary disadvantage I can see to this is that Longniddry loses its fast bus service to Edinburgh. However, Longniddry does still have a railway station so a fast journey to Edinburgh by public transport is still possible.
The only other issue that I can see is that the X5 currently does not have a long layover time; only 9-10 minutes at Fredrick Street and 7-9 minutes at North Berwick on the journeys I've checked. This could mean that adding any more running time at all would not be possible without adding another bus into the circuit which is probably not possible without incurring significant additional cost.

Can anyone see any other disadvantages or reasons why this couldn't happen that I have missed?

Figures around deprivation taken from https://simd.scot/ - Scottish Index of Multiple Deprivation. Journey time figures taken from driving directions on Google Maps. Suggested new route shown in attached screenshot.
 

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FlybeDash8Q400

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It would be amazing if demand/resources allowed for a proper summer coastal open top tour bus. There’s so many tourist attractions in East Lothian that could be linked. Yes they tried East Coast Tours though ironically it did not serve much of the coast.

It would have to serve Seton Sands as well. This was the big failure of East Coast Tours.
 

TheEastCoaster

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First tried that idea 20 years ago? X29 ran all day but it was empty!

Did the X29 run beyond Seton Sands? my memory is fuzzy on that!

Personally I don't think that's a bad idea for Port Seton/Seton Sands to have an additional service, what your saying makes sense but it would need tweaking heavily.
 

zjsptgzxyspks

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Travelling from Cockenzie to the city is indeed too long on the 26.
Something like this could work:

Split the 26 back to Tranent

Then X5 diverted via Seton Sands.

X4 via Longniddry to North Berwick.

X5 and X4 alternate every hour. Both terminate at Fountainbridge.

124 becomes every hour, to Longniddry then terminate at Seton Sands to turn around.

Tranent express would be the X6 (continue to Haddington via Macmerry) /X8 (to Pencaitland) alternate every hour, X8 peak time every 40 minutes.

Cancel:106

Extend the 113: run from Haddington – Pencaitland – Tranent – Musselburgh – Fort Kinnard – Western General. Every hour.

So to keep a fast bus and a total of 2 buses per hour for Longniddry, faster bus for Cockenzie. Faster bus for Pencaitland while retaining most local links.
 
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Travelling from Cockenzie to the city is indeed too long on the 26.
Something like this could work:

Split the 26 back to Tranent

Then X5 diverted via Seton Sands.

X4 via Longniddry to North Berwick.

X5 and X4 alternate every hour. Both terminate at Fountainbridge.

124 becomes every hour, to Longniddry then terminate at Seton Sands to turn around.

Tranent express would be the X6 (continue to Haddington via Macmerry) /X8 (to Pencaitland) alternate every hour, X8 peak time every 40 minutes.

Cancel:106

Extend the 113: run from Haddington – Pencaitland – Tranent – Musselburgh – Fort Kinnard – Western General. Every hour.

So to keep a fast bus and a total of 2 buses per hour for Longniddry, faster bus for Cockenzie. Faster bus for Pencaitland while retaining most local links.
I don't think people in North Berwick, Dirleton, Gullane, Aberlady and Longniddry will be very happy in finding out they can't get to Musselburgh! This is the busiest section on the 124, by the way. There is no reason to merge the 113 and the 106, the 106 does perfectly well as a local service. It is very unsustainable for two buses to serve Pencaitland going to Edinburgh. I don't think Macmerry residents would be very happy to find out that they can't get to/from Musselburgh on evenings and Sundays...

Express bus to Port Seton isn't a bad idea, I'd recommend rerouting the X4 via Appin Drive to Port Seton is the best bet, with some 26s diverting to Tranent. This would also allow the X6 to return in some capacity, perhaps serving Masons Way in Wallyford. I also think the 113 to the Western General isn't a bad idea, however the 106 staying and serving the Royal Infirmary is a better alternative, I'd suggest.
 

TheEastCoaster

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I don't think people in North Berwick, Dirleton, Gullane, Aberlady and Longniddry will be very happy in finding out they can't get to Musselburgh! This is the busiest section on the 124,

Yeah that's a baffling choice personally considering Musselburgh is the main gateway to East Lothian.
I don't think Macmerry residents would be very happy to find out that they can't get to/from Musselburgh on evenings and Sundays...
If anything i would give the 106 a better sunday evening timetable, something on par with the Monday - Saturday one.
I also think the 113 to the Western General isn't a bad idea, however the 106 staying and serving the Royal Infirmary is a better alternative, I'd suggest.
Wasen't their a rumour that the 106 was going to serve Royal Infirmary in the last service change but got cancelled? (im sure the same guy said the 124 would be cut back to Musselburgh with the X5 running into the evenings)
 

JKP

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Whilst travelling back to Sherrifhall from Princes Street yesterday afternoon on a lightly loaded 33, I was wondering whether Millerhill residents would benefit more by having a service to Dalkeith Tesco rather than Edinburgh? The 33 is more often than not empty or has only one passenger beyond the Park and Ride in both directions.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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Whilst travelling back to Sherrifhall from Princes Street yesterday afternoon on a lightly loaded 33, I was wondering whether Millerhill residents would benefit more by having a service to Dalkeith Tesco rather than Edinburgh? The 33 is more often than not empty or has only one passenger beyond the Park and Ride in both directions.
If we’re looking at connections, Musselburgh probably is a better option. The 111’s route is fine, so perhaps it’d be better if ECB were able to put a successful bid in for that? The 111 gives you the two connections to Royal Infirmary and Musselburgh.

I agree, the 33 is a waste of time going to Millerhill and has been pretty much all of the time it has been going there.
 

TheEastCoaster

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If we’re looking at connections, Musselburgh probably is a better option. The 111’s route is fine, so perhaps it’d be better if ECB were able to put a successful bid in for that? The 111 gives you the two connections to Royal Infirmary and Musselburgh.

I agree, the 33 is a waste of time going to Millerhill and has been pretty much all of the time it has been going there.

The fear is that Lothian may realise that and pull the 33 back to Royal Infirmary, leaving Old Dalkeith Road with no services beyond Royal Infirmary, unless they extend the 33 beyond to Dalkeith once again, but at this point i doubt it, i've only used the 33 a few handful of times beyond the Royal and i can't say it's been paticularly busy out Millerhill way, but after all these years Lothian has still not pulled out of the area, (but like most services, once it gets cut then the sudden outcry begins..) looking at you 46!

if the 111 was for bid then i could see East Coast running it, but then Prentice would lose out which would be quite a shame.

Maybe they could retweak the 39 and extend it to Millerhill/Royal Infirmary.. kill two birds with one stone and plus it would rectify the complaints people had on the loss of the 46.
 

Devon Sunset

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Seton Sands/Port Seton/Cockenzie definitely need a regular express bus to Edinburgh city centre. Obviously how you achieve this with minimal cost and impact on other services is a bit of a conundrum. Maybe start with diverting the X5 and see how it goes but I would run it straight down East Lorimer Place and then turn right along the main street instead of Alder Road and Long Craig's.
 

LBObserver

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Maybe reroute the X4, starting from Seton Sands to Port Seton and Cockenzie then its current, or slightly different route through Prestonpans. Leave the X5 alone! At least two of my relatives would be quite unhappy if it is removed from Longniddry.

Restore the 26 Tranent journeys.
 

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