Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[VioletEclipse]

They are 9321 and 9322.

Thank you!

I'm sure they have a perfectly reasonable system, but at least on the fleetlist, the fleet numbers of the LMC and EVE stuff is getting slightly confusing ahah.

 

[scosutsut]

Do we know why they've gone to Scania for coaches? Not a problem just wildly out with normal convention.

I seem to remember mention of B8R/EvoTors being on order but never materialised?

 

[buslad1988]

Carnage in Edinburgh today with the closure of Princes Street. Many buses 30-60 minutes late with multiple bunching, diversions and part routes.

Looking at bustimes the worse pinch points are Shandwick Place and George Street (at 1311 there were four inbound Airlinks sat in this stretch alone), seems like they’re trying to tackle it by using part of the rugby diversion.

They’ll be occasions where drivers hours are breached also (or no relief to take over) which will be the reasoning for many part routes; such as 26’s to King’s Road or drivers will simply be told to pull over, park up and await further instruction.

 

[overthewater]

Get ready, because It will be like that for the rest of the week, Part of the top of the building has collapsed so they will have to send people in to make sure it's safe.

Not as bad as Glasgow but enough someone will need to double check.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Get ready, because It will be like that for the rest of the week, Part of the top of the building has collapsed so they will have to send people in to make sure it's safe.

Not as bad as Glasgow but enough someone will need to double check.

I think it’s likely it will transition to an Eastbound only closure at somepoint, with traffic also being able to use Frederick Street.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Get ready, because It will be like that for the rest of the week, Part of the top of the building has collapsed so they will have to send people in to make sure it's safe.

Not as bad as Glasgow but enough someone will need to double check.

I wonder how the Trams are going to cope? Will it be short running for awhile?

 

[Avenger20]

I wonder how the Trams are going to cope? Will it be short running for awhile?

If the eastbound carriageway manages to open, could a wrong direction move be made from West End to Picardy Place to move a couple sets over?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

That’s Frederick Street open, so most of the diversions have been changed to serve it.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

If the eastbound carriageway manages to open, could a wrong direction move be made from West End to Picardy Place to move a couple sets over?

I'm not sure, I think the major problem is the OLE, I've heard it will take a couple days to get it back to normal.

 

[Avenger20]

I'm not sure, I think the major problem is the OLE, I've heard it will take a couple days to get it back to normal.

What is the problem with the OLE? Falling debris physically brought it down or intense heat melting components?

 

[TheEastCoaster]

What is the problem with the OLE? Falling debris physically brought it down or intense heat melting components?

There isn't a problem at the moment but that's the risk as it stands, it could come down if debris crashed onto princess street.

It could take up to weeks to get this fixed, perfect timing with the fringe around the corner.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

There isn't a problem at the moment but that's the risk as it stands, it could come down if debris crashed onto princes street.

It could take up to weeks to get this fixed, perfect timing with the fringe around the corner.

Having got a better understanding of what is going on. It is expected to remain closed to all vehicles, possibly for weeks rather than days. This includes pedestrians on both sides, even the furthest point that borders Princes Street Gardens.

The risk is vibrations from any traffic, not just the trams. These vibrations could disturb what is left and cause the remaining structure to collapse. Until full structural assessments have been carried out, it will have to be closed completely to everything. Of course then they may decide that no action is required; this seems very unlikely, or solutions that involve part or full demolition. The Union Corner fire in Glasgow resulted in a full demolition that had to be done by hand. I believe that area is only just reopening now.

If this were to be true, they might need to look at a solution for Leith. The loss of the trams here for a period of time will create problems. How you solve this in bus terms, I’m simply not sure. They can’t just magic resources. However it’s an area that averages between 7-8 trams an hour, most of which have around 100-150 people onboard at a time. Of course this can be more or less depending on time of day. Irrespective of exact numbers, it is likely that a solution will need to be worked out.

There are also plenty of outdoor seating areas on George Street that are not exactly helping with the congestion. These being there is basically resulting in George Street being a single lane. Presumably these have permits that have been paid by the owners of the establishments that have them, so simply taking them out immediately isn’t possible. Though it is not impossible to remove them.

There’s then the scheduled closure of much of George Street for the Festival. The council will surely want to avoid this being an issue, but given where the situation is at the moment, it is not impossible for these to conflict with one another.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

If this were to be true, they might need to look at a solution for Leith. The loss of the trams here for a period of time will create problems. How you solve this in bus terms, I’m simply not sure. They can’t just magic resources. However it’s an area that averages between 7-8 trams an hour, most of which have around 100-150 people onboard at a time. Of course this can be more or less depending on time of day. Irrespective of exact numbers, it is likely that a solution will need to be worked out.

This will be the time where Lothian are going to regret pulling the 22 out of Leith.. but seriously this is going to be a big issue going forward, because im not sure how well the 16/25 are going to cope in the coming month, i know they usually throw out extra services during the fringe for capacity but i think that might need to be sooner rather than later.

There are also plenty of outdoor seating areas on George Street that are not exactly helping with the congestion. These being there is basically resulting in George Street being a single lane. Presumably these have permits that have been paid by the owners of the establishments that have them, so simply taking them out immediately isn’t possible. Though it is not impossible to remove them.

There’s then the scheduled closure of much of George Street for the Festival. The council will surely want to avoid this being an issue, but given where the situation is at the moment, it is not impossible for these to conflict with one another.

Logically, they may need to avoid this this time around given the circimstances, but i doubt that it will happen tbh

 

[Strathclyder]

The risk is vibrations from any traffic, not just the trams. These vibrations could disturb what is left and cause the remaining structure to collapse. Until full structural assessments have been carried out, it will have to be closed completely to everything. Of course then they may decide that no action is required; this seems very unlikely, or solutions that involve part or full demolition. The Union Corner fire in Glasgow resulted in a full demolition that had to be done by hand. I believe that area is only just reopening now.

Reopening on 17th July (next Friday), so over 4 months or 132 days since 8th March (less than a week before the Commonwealth Games start on the 23rd). Glasgow Central's concourse will also fully reopen tomorrow with the Union & Gordon St entrances/exits also finally coming back into use on the 17th. Depending on what the structrual assesment finds (up to and including full demolition), the Princes St fire could very well have similarly long-lasting recovery/clean-up efforts (though I suspect the city's economy will bounce back a lot faster than Glasgow's has and will).

 

[overthewater]

As expected "Bus disruption in Edinburgh to continue indefinitely after Princes Street fire" The fire inspector only got into the site this morning! I can't see the trams coming back for a few weeks now.

Bus disruption in Edinburgh to continue indefinitely after Princes Street fire

Buses have been diverted away from Princes Street following a major fire at the former Debenhams store last week.

www.bbc.co.uk

Disruption to public transport in Edinburgh city centre is expected to continue while a probe into a fire at a former department store is carried out.

Bus services have been re-routed away from Princes Street to George Street while the city's trams are operating on a reduced network as a result of the blaze at the old Debenhams site last week. Lothian Buses said the situation was "fluid" and there was no date for a full reopening of the network. Police Scotland and the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service (SFRS) said an investigation into the cause of the fire was ongoing. City of Edinburgh Council leader, Jane Meagher, warned disruption to services was "inevitable".

Officers from the fire investigation unit have now been granted access to the building. The probe was previously unable to get under way due to concerns over its structural safety.

Images from the scene show the roof of the building was completely destroyed, while other parts have been severely damaged. Tram services are only operating between the west end and the airport. A large section of Rose Street and Rose Street South Lane remain closed. It comes ahead of a busy period for the city, with road closures due to come into force ahead of the festival season at the end of July. George Street is usually closed to traffic during August, when bars and venues are permitted to extend across the road.

Willie Hamilton, Lothian Buses chief operating officer, said the current closures posed a "significant challenge" to operators and commuters. He said: "Princes Street is right at the heart of Edinburgh's public transport network, so any closure has a huge impact. "We are involved in discussions on a daily basis and I would urge anybody, when they are travelling to check in advance. "It is a fluid situation and it will be changing, sometimes hour to hour." He added: "Once we've got a date for length of time for this, that will determine whether the upcoming closures, for example of George Street for the festival, has to be a consideration or not."

 

[Busman757]

As expected "Bus disruption in Edinburgh to continue indefinitely after Princes Street fire" The fire inspector only got into the site this morning! I can't see the trams coming back for a few weeks now.

Bus disruption in Edinburgh to continue indefinitely after Princes Street fire

Buses have been diverted away from Princes Street following a major fire at the former Debenhams store last week.

www.bbc.co.uk

Funnily enough one person commented on Edinburgh lives post on Facebook saying Lothian should change their timetables to accommodate and use side streets to elevate traffic.

 

[overthewater]

They might have to now... The closure is staying in place into the Festival period.

Princes Street updates

Edinburgh city updates

www.edinburgh.gov.uk

A section of Princes Street is expected to remain closed into August following a fire at the former Debenhams store in the early hours of 9 July.

Work is continuing to make the building safe while ensuring its historic features are preserved. While timescales are not yet confirmed, these works are expected to take several weeks to complete.

Princes Street is closed between Frederick Street and South Charlotte Street to all vehicles and pedestrians, with diversions in place.

Buses are currently rerouted along George Street and Queen Street, with trams only operating to and from the airport and Shandwick Place. No trams are running between Princes Street, Leith and Newhaven.

With the diversions set to continue into next month, including on George Street, alternative arrangements are being put in place to limit disruption to forthcoming festivals and events.

We understand the disruption and delays this is causing is frustrating but we must prioritise public safety.

Please plan ahead. We will keep these webpages regularly updated with the latest information and travel advice.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

They might have to now... The closure is staying in place into the Festival period.

Princes Street updates

Edinburgh city updates

www.edinburgh.gov.uk

This is going to be a challenge. It’s good they’ve confirmed it will be closed as this seemed obvious.

What will now have to happen is a bit messy. Will the council opt to clear out what’s on George Street, with compensation issued and anything else that had been planned also cancelled.

Surely they’re going to have to look at a solution for the Trams not running either. Could more 100’s be put on to provide extra capacity into the heart of the city? Could they run extra 16’s between Newhaven and the City Centre to aid with the temporary loss of the Trams. I’m glad I’m not responsible for these decisions as I suspect there will need to be compromises. I also think it might be looked at to reroute some Haymarket to South Bridge services via Tollcross, but not all, to see if this helps with the flows. Don’t envy Lothian on this one, some hard calls.

The Rugby is the first big test. Curious to see how that goes.

 

[davp]

I wonder if they might start stronger suggestions that people for the city centre change at Edinburgh Park onto a train. If you're unlucky you could wait 25 mins but you'll still likely be at Waverley quicker.

It was pretty quiet when I got the tram to the West End this morning, but it has the potential to be absolute chaos in a couple of weeks. Agreed I wouldn't want to be the planner at Lothian on this one.

 

[ScotRail158725]

They might have to now... The closure is staying in place into the Festival period.

Princes Street updates

Edinburgh city updates

www.edinburgh.gov.uk

just knock it down asap, surely thats a start as it then rules out any sort of collapse and there can at lest be a start on reopening of the road for buses

 

[NorthEastern]

just knock it down asap, surely thats a start as it then rules out any sort of collapse and there can at lest be a start on reopening of the road for buses

Why not use Queen St as a bus diversion and leave the George St arrangements in place?

 

[computerSaysNo]

I think it's mainly the traffic lights that are the issue causing the congestion - they're still giving a green light heading into the closed section of Princes Street which is holding all the other traffic at red for longer. If the council can adjust the phases that would significantly help the congestion.

 

[Auld reekie]

Are they still allowing parking in George Street?

 

[Lx008]

Any news on how the Kites are faring after a few weeks in service?

 

[SilentWatcher]

Why not use Queen St as a bus diversion and leave the George St arrangements in place?

Some services and other operators are already using QS and bypassing GS. It's not an ideal situation as it is, without then adding all of the other buses down there too

 

[computerSaysNo]

Why not use Queen St as a bus diversion and leave the George St arrangements in place?

Queen Street is two lanes in each direction but they're very narrow so whenever a bus is there it effectively goes down to one lane, and on the corners onto and off of Queen Street any long vehicle needs to take up the two lanes to make the turn, so there's not as much capacity as it might seem.
I've also just seen that from tomorrow, East Coast services will go westbound all the way along London Road to Leopold Place, York Place, North and South Saint Andrew Street and then back to Princes Street and Waterloo Place, which should help all the other services a bit too.

 

[Numpt33]

If this were to be true, they might need to look at a solution for Leith. The loss of the trams here for a period of time will create problems. How you solve this in bus terms, I’m simply not sure. They can’t just magic resources. However it’s an area that averages between 7-8 trams an hour, most of which have around 100-150 people onboard at a time. Of course this can be more or less depending on time of day. Irrespective of exact numbers, it is likely that a solution will need to be worked out.

The tram didn't actually increase overall public transport by more than 5% above pre-tram, standing on a tram isn't really an indicator of higher usage. It might turn out that reinstating the old 22 (i believe 10 per hour) to Ocean Terminal would provide more than enough capacity. The existing routes may have enough capacity to absorb the difference, as tram passengers can't easily change to a bus (the first bus which appears) as the tram and bus stops are segregated.

Scottish Government officials aren't showing up to buildings and going for meetings at the other buildings in the way they once did, what with Teams/ Zoom.

 

[buslad1988]

Ideally, extra buses would be put on to compensate for the loss of the tram - such as airlink etc. however there simply isn’t the drivers available to do this.

Lothian also have a lot of back office changes going on at the moment and arguably; enough focus isn’t being put on keeping a reliable service going as some might like to think.

Reactive rather a proactive springs to mind. After all, it’s been pretty much a week now this has been going on.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I noticed they are altering the diversions slightly so that the East Coast Buses are doing a one way loop (bar the 106)

 

[computerSaysNo]

I noticed they are altering the diversions slightly so that the East Coast Buses are doing a one way loop (bar the 106)

Do we know what the last stop will be for X4 etc and where the first stop will be? As there isn't room to take layover at Waterloo Place nor at the stop on the Picardy Place stop.