Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[Busman757]

It is a bit surprising that any more diesels are being ordered given that they’ve committed to net zero by 2035.

I believe the Diesels will be the Airlinks. If they got Electrics for the Airlink you’d most likely have to buy double the fleet.

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

I believe the Diesels will be the Airlinks. If they got Electrics for the Airlink you’d most likely have to buy double the fleet.

Don't see why they wouldn't be ADL E400XLBs either considering they have already bodied Volvo B8Ls I'm sure they'll accept the premium Lothian will no doubt pay to have them built again, ADL in Camelon need the orders so I'm sure they've probably already worked something out if someone's already said further up the thread that it's XLBs again.

 

[scosutsut]

If it’s EVs are they building a new depot as well as I can’t see Musselburgh being suitable as it’s very tight.

Unless there are some quick wins available at Dunbar perhaps? They didn't have that depot when the electrification plan was drawn up, and I've not seen a republished version since?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2025 ==

Don't see why they wouldn't be ADL E400XLBs either considering they have already bodied Volvo B8Ls I'm sure they'll accept the premium Lothian will no doubt pay to have them built again, ADL in Camelon need the orders so I'm sure they've probably already worked something out if someone's already said further up the thread that it's XLBs again.

Also it would be a bit suspect if ADL turned away orders given their very public tantrum and threats of closure due to not having enough!

 

[mb88]

East Coast Buses are due brand new vehicles next year.

Interesting considering I’m lead to believe Country is the better performing of the two.

 

[ScotRail158725]

One of 933 and 935 is definitely done so they’d only get one bus at most. What seems more likely is 1005 moving to replace 1004 permanently, thus removing the other 09 plate at Longstone.

933 out today

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2025 ==

Interesting considering I’m lead to believe Country is the better performing of the two.

Im not surprised i can’t remember the last time i was on a quiet Lothian country bus, the X40 i had last week was full and standing off the centre. The low frequency of the routes probably helps enhance the numbers coming in over the numbers going out

 

[stevenedin]

933 out today

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2025 ==


Im not surprised i can’t remember the last time i was on a quiet Lothian country bus, the X40 i had last week was full and standing off the centre. The low frequency of the routes probably helps enhance the numbers coming in over the numbers going out

It's great to hear that the X40 is doing well. I think it is probably safe to say that is enhanced by the change of route into Calderwood and The Calders/Wester Hailes

 

[Scotrail88]

933 out today

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2025 ==


Im not surprised i can’t remember the last time i was on a quiet Lothian country bus, the X40 i had last week was full and standing off the centre. The low frequency of the routes probably helps enhance the numbers coming in over the numbers going out

I suppose the question is more about the profitability overall.

Country might be better but is it just less loss making?

For all the busy journeys there are a lot of empty ones that cancel those.


Would be surprised if not breaking even as the old Livingston operation was profitable for First.

 

[scosutsut]

Profitability will be a factor but vehicle replacement needs to be viewed over the long term, not just done when you've made profit, otherwise you end up with uneven vehicle replacement demands, ideally you want that to be quite stable.

ECB recorded a small loss of £41k in the last financial year, but that's before the Eve purchase which will have changed the picture in ways we can only guess.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

933 out today

Yes it looks as if that will be the one to carry on in place of 1004. How they plan to ultimately remove 933 though is anyone’s guess.

935 has moved to Newbridge so can assume that is done. 927 has joined it there as well. 928 is finished but remains at Central.

1010 will be the last of the planned Marine ex London’s to be removed. 786 of course will take its place, which hasn’t been delivered yet.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

ECB recorded a small loss of £41k in the last financial year, but that's before the Eve purchase which will have changed the picture in ways we can only guess.

Next service change should see some changes to try and turn East Coast Buses around.

 

[computerSaysNo]

Next service change should see some changes to try and turn East Coast Buses around.

Oh. Implying there's going to be some cuts?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Oh. Implying there's going to be some cuts?

Clearly giving ECB Tranent was a theory of trying to grow its revenue, but the buses if anything look quieter.

ECB doesn’t need cuts. It needs changes. The network is just so poorly done. The X4 is way too slow to be seen as an ‘express’ in my eyes. The X6 shouldn’t be necessary to have and the 106 is pointless west of Fort Kinnaird and I say this as someone who benefits from having that extension.

I’ve also seen plenty of Lothian drivers driving ECB routes lately. Something that let’s be honest doesn’t happen anywhere near as much as Lothian Country.

The whole East Lothian network doesn’t need ripped up, but it needs a rethink for sure. Routes like the Prentice 115 shouldn’t need to exist, but they do owing to the bizarre gaps we’ve ended up with.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Clearly giving ECB Tranent was a theory of trying to grow its revenue, but the buses if anything look quieter.

ECB doesn’t need cuts. It needs changes. The network is just so poorly done. The X4 is way too slow to be seen as an ‘express’ in my eyes. The X6 shouldn’t be necessary to have and the 106 is pointless west of Fort Kinnaird and I say this as someone who benefits from having that extension.

I’ve also seen plenty of Lothian drivers driving ECB routes lately. Something that let’s be honest doesn’t happen anywhere near as much as Lothian Country.

The whole East Lothian network doesn’t need ripped up, but it needs a rethink for sure. Routes like the Prentice 115 shouldn’t need to exist, but they do owing to the bizarre gaps we’ve ended up with.

Its not perfect, but some benefits are better than others, sure the X4 was a controversial take, but in execution I can see what they are trying to do, keeping the Prestonpans - Tranent link while having a faster service to the city via the A1, but Tranent have other options like the 106,113,X6, with the latter being the faster options.

The 106 extension was unexpected, it's an interesting idea and it's a good way to appease Macmerry residents and provide a faster link from the city to Fort Kinnaird, but if not enough people are aware of it, it risks getting cut, it should be a good service but it's never busy beyond the Fort from what I've seen.

Honestly, it's only a matter of time before Lothian decide to fully scale back to either Musselburgh or just the city boundaries and give East Coast the rest of East Lothian, and that could be a good thing or a bad thing in some people's eyes, on the one hand it's consistent but on the other completely unnecessary, especially when the 26/44 are popular routes on their own, but some have to wonder if they will end up getting cut or replaced with something more "green".

At least West Lothian seem to finally have a more stable service.

 

[Metal Mickey]

Honestly, it's only a matter of time before Lothian decide to fully scale back to either Musselburgh or just the city boundaries and give East Coast the rest of East Lothian

That depends on what the demand is between Prestonpans and Portobello.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Dec 2025 ==

At least West Lothian seem to finally have a more stable service

It might be stable but it’s still awful.

Despite criticism of First, they introduced a much more simplified network with quick services linking Bathgate, Broxburn, Blackburn and West Calder to Livingston and running up to every 15 mins, far better than what’s on offer now.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Its not perfect, but some benefits are better than others, sure the X4 was a controversial take, but in execution I can see what they are trying to do, keeping the Prestonpans - Tranent link while having a faster service to the city via the A1, but Tranent have other options like the 106,113,X6, with the latter being the faster options.

The thing is though the 110/115 do a better job of this as they actually connect all of Prestonpans with Tranent, whereas the X4 only serves Top Pans.

From experience Macmerry to Edinburgh is a peak only journey, but the X6 isn’t executed well in my opinion.

They’ve taken a gamble by taking off the well used 26 and replacing it with what we have now and let’s be fair it’s an absolute mess. The loadings now are nowhere near what the 26 was.

I’m not trying to say simply undo what they did, but how it was 12 months ago to now was far better and they have definitely got something to sort.

 

[scosutsut]

The thing is though the 110/115 do a better job of this as they actually connect all of Prestonpans with Tranent, whereas the X4 only serves Top Pans.

From experience Macmerry to Edinburgh is a peak only journey, but the X6 isn’t executed well in my opinion.

They’ve taken a gamble by taking off the well used 26 and replacing it with what we have now and let’s be fair it’s an absolute mess. The loadings now are nowhere near what the 26 was.

I’m not trying to say simply undo what they did, but how it was 12 months ago to now was far better and they have definitely got something to sort.

Did they reduce the 26 and save PVR, or did they just give Seton Sands a frequency boost?

I.e. how easy would it be to revert?

 

[stevenedin]

Did they reduce the 26 and save PVR, or did they just give Seton Sands a frequency boost?

I.e. how easy would it be to revert?

As far as I'm aware the 26 kept the same frequency but all go to Seton Sands now.

 

[Resuwen]

When are 905/6 due to finish? The old survivors are the last two buses in the fleet to look really old because they’re the only ones left with the “big heaflight” Gemini front end

 

[scosutsut]

As far as I'm aware the 26 kept the same frequency but all go to Seton Sands now.

So an easy path to revert that back then, if they are prepared to admit they got it wrong.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

So an easy path to revert that back then, if they are prepared to admit they got it wrong.

The 26 in its current form probably doesn’t need to be every 10 minutes east of Eastfield off peak. However it definitely needs to be more frequent than every 20 minutes in the remaining section. The 26 is bad for bunching as well. Not uncommon for 3 or 4 in close proximity to each other.

The issue you’ve got is the Clerwood to Eastfield stretch definitely needs to be every 10 minutes though. Could you extend the 19 to Seton Sands and curtail the 26 to Eastfield? I’m not sure that works.

A big pickle to solve for sure.

 

[Devon Sunset]

The 26 in its current form probably doesn’t need to be every 10 minutes east of Eastfield off peak. However it definitely needs to be more frequent than every 20 minutes in the remaining section. The 26 is bad for bunching as well. Not uncommon for 3 or 4 in close proximity to each other.

The issue you’ve got is the Clerwood to Eastfield stretch definitely needs to be every 10 minutes though. Could you extend the 19 to Seton Sands and curtail the 26 to Eastfield? I’m not sure that works.

A big pickle to solve for sure.

The problem with that is the 19 is going to be even slower to get to the city centre than the 26 from Port Seton, Prestonpans, etc.

 

[Porty]

The 26 in its current form probably doesn’t need to be every 10 minutes east of Eastfield off peak. However it definitely needs to be more frequent than every 20 minutes in the remaining section. The 26 is bad for bunching as well. Not uncommon for 3 or 4 in close proximity to each other.

The issue you’ve got is the Clerwood to Eastfield stretch definitely needs to be every 10 minutes though. Could you extend the 19 to Seton Sands and curtail the 26 to Eastfield? I’m not sure that works.

A big pickle to solve for sure.

Alternate 26s in the daytime to only go as far as Eastfield, or even Levenhall. Or is that too simple?

 

[scosutsut]

The 26 in its current form probably doesn’t need to be every 10 minutes east of Eastfield off peak. However it definitely needs to be more frequent than every 20 minutes in the remaining section. The 26 is bad for bunching as well. Not uncommon for 3 or 4 in close proximity to each other.

The issue you’ve got is the Clerwood to Eastfield stretch definitely needs to be every 10 minutes though. Could you extend the 19 to Seton Sands and curtail the 26 to Eastfield? I’m not sure that works.

A big pickle to solve for sure.

The more I think on it, the X4 should have in theory worked, I guess not having really granular journey details (that you would get from having TOTO, for example) really makes it hard for operators to change routes - they know where people board, but have way less accurate data on when they leave, making the passenger flows absolute guesswork.

On paper the X4 looks like a quicker journey from Tranent to Edinburgh than the 26 plus it gives top pans an option again.

In reality it looks like no one in Tranent was taking it that far, and the 26 journeys were taken to Pans/Musselburgh/Portobello etc. X4 is slower than alternatives to the city so is ignored?

Would cutting out top pans save the X4 without reinstating the 26 perhaps?

 

[Paz]

Lothian have a great reputation for the quality of their fleet, so I'm always interested in what happens to the older buses when they are moved on. Is anyone aware of any sites which track ownership of ex-Lothian buses.

I occasionally look at Flickr and come across some in new liveries but otherwise haven't come across any other meaningful source

Thanks

 

[stevenedin]

Lothian have a great reputation for the quality of their fleet, so I'm always interested in what happens to the older buses when they are moved on. Is anyone aware of any sites which track ownership of ex-Lothian buses.

I occasionally look at Flickr and come across some in new liveries but otherwise haven't come across any other meaningful source

Thanks

There is a group on flickr called Ex Lothian Buses which some people post photos to. I'm sure that there is a heritage list on a website somewhere but I think that is just for preserved vehicles. It may not exist anymore.

 

[Paz]

There is a group on flickr called Ex Lothian Buses which some people post photos to. I'm sure that there is a heritage list on a website somewhere but I think that is just for preserved vehicles. It may not exist anymore.

Thanks

 

[TheEastCoaster]

The problem with that is the 19 is going to be even slower to get to the city centre than the 26 from Port Seton, Prestonpans, etc.

I could maybe see the 19 going to QMU, but not further, but then again it's already got a perfect thing going for Eastfield.

Would cutting out top pans save the X4 without reinstating the 26 perhaps?

I can hear the outcry already

I do think the best solution is reinstating the 26 to Tranent and scrap the X4, maybe put the resources into another existing service

 

[stevenedin]

I could maybe see the 19 going to QMU, but not further, but then again it's already got a perfect thing going for Eastfield.



I can hear the outcry already

I do think the best solution is reinstating the 26 to Tranent and scrap the X4, maybe put the resources into another existing service

Or make every second one a 104 and go via the old 26 route up to Haymarket and keep the X4 as it is but reduce the 26 only every second one going to Seton Sands and the others going to Eastfield.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The problem with that is the 19 is going to be even slower to get to the city centre than the 26 from Port Seton, Prestonpans, etc.

Believe it or not, the 19 is only booked to take a few minutes longer than the 26. Generally no more than 3-4 minutes in time but sometimes as close as 1 minute longer.

Having the 19 do this would solve the East Lothian to Western General link as well.

 

[scosutsut]

I can hear the outcry already

I do think the best solution is reinstating the 26 to Tranent and scrap the X4, maybe put the resources into another existing service

Agree. Especially if it resolves a driver shortage at ECB (which might just be a seasonal illness thing, it's just been mentioned.)

Could also have the effect of requiring less cascades to retire the last of the B9TLs if overall PVR goes down.